EU4 - Development Diary - 9th of October 2018

[ShadowSpion]

How much Dev is the iberia region getting in the new update? Otherwise spain will still be a wet paper tiger.

 

[MateuszNH]

Uh, there are already 38 pages, you are really involved

 

[regne_valencia]

What do you mean the concept of Iberia didn't exist? Iberia is just the Greek word for what the Romans called Hispania (in the geographic sense, not politically), if anything it chronologically pre-dates Hispania. They were used synonymously since Antiquity. However, since the propaganda from the Castilian rulers eventually succeed in laying claim to the title of Spain, the word Iberia was left alone to refer to the entirety of the Peninsula.

As you said,Iberia is a word to refer to a geographical entity,Hispania is the name for the politcally entity.I think the correct name for a politcally entity that coversd all the peninsula area is Hispania (spain)

About the flag,the spanish flag in almost all years that game covers was this

 

[Mik_C]

I completely disagree with you. I can also say that Castillian an Leonese are similar, so Castillian only has to be represented (just an example). To accept that Catalonian and Valencian are that similar that they should be represented in a single culture is non historical, realistic and it also affects to the gameplay making it more unhistorical. Imagine you are playing with Valencia and catalonian separatist rebels spawn... tadan! They get a core it never existed! And why it never existed in the past? Because Valencia has it's own culture and kingdom and no catalonian rebels could possibly spawn. So please guys, I suggest to stack to the reality and to abandon the modern nationalism thoughs.
We want the game the most realistic as possible in these matters for a proper inmersion (and for an inmersion pack I think that real inmersion is needed).
What would you think if it would be the other way around? I mean changing the name of Catalonian culture to Valencian. In such case I'm sure that most of you will disagree, me included.

The thing is that there was an Astur-Leonese language in all the area of "Leonese" culture provinces at the time of the start of the game (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astur-Leonese_languages) so there is clearly a different culture for the game, like Aragonese is distinct from the Catalan-Valencian culture. As I said, I don't know the official criteria for a culture to be considered in the game and I don't know if the other factors that could make Catalan, Valencian and even Balearic as different cultures, but as I understand the fact that there is a core reflects more the situation. I would prefer a "neutral" name for the culture but there is none. Also, I almost put in that post that the culture could be named Valencian instead of Catalan because of the "valencian century of gold" of culture focused in Valencia in the XV century, the start of the game.

In the area modifiers that I proposed I specified that the modifier should block the core to disappear, but I didn't think about the possibility of catalonian rebels going to the other areas. About the fact that catalonian rebels could spawn and go to the other areas I partially think you are right, here I have 2 different opinions:
* In the case that other areas have their special autonomy (or are independent) and one spawn rebels I don't think that the rebels should go to the other ones. (Edit: and neither create cores)
* In the case that all the areas lost the special autonomy I see that rebels forming in one of them could see the other ones as "part of the nationalist country" (I think about the rebels of the culture that try to create a new country based of culture and not the core). I am not saying that people in Valencia or Baleares feel Catalan (or any combination that could appear if we name the culture with another name), I am saying that rebels that spawn would consider the other areas as their culture and will try to occupy them. A province does not need unrest to get rebels that spawned elsewhere. So I think it would be even historical that rebels try to occupy the 3 areas. (Edit: to clarify, as you say some "modern nationalists" think of the other areas as part of an entire nation, so if there where "modern nationalist" rebels (maybe since age of absolutism) it is logical that they try to occupy what they see as the entire nation).

Now, about what I consider the principal problem: why Catalonia would be the primary nation of the culture? I don't think this have to be the case, I think that if there are rebels (at a cultural level, not for separatism) the resulting country if they win is the country of the area that they spawned (that is why I insisted in the fact that the cores in any of the 3 areas shouldn't disappear). Also, what if the primary nation is dynamic? I mean, if Valencian or Balear rebels spawn first or more (or even which area has more development), make them primary.

 

[navaluiki]

Uh, there are already 38 pages, you are really involved

Yeah, we are really involved.
Spain and Portugal were two of the big boys at the time and, even if this update is going to enhance them a lot, we think there's still much room for improvement

 

[Afonso de Albuquerque]

As you said,Iberia is a word to refer to a geographical entity,Hispania is the name for the politcally entity.I think the correct name for a politcally entity that coversd all the peninsula area is Hispania (spain)

About the flag,the spanish flag in almost all years that game covers was this

Again, Iberia and Spain were used interchangeably to refer to the geographic location. When someone from Portugal in the 15th century called themselves Spanish, they meant it the geographic sense, not in the sense of belonging to some putative Spanish political entity that was just waiting to be established. They used the word Iberian at that time as well. If you read the Lusiads, Camões refers to the Portuguese as Spanish or Iberian (again, in purely geographic terms) simply according to which is better for the rhyme. There was nothing inherently special about Spain vs Iberia at the time, it's just that one comes more directly from Latin and was thus preferred by the ruling class, and in particular the kings in Madrid that wanted to claim sovereignty over the entire peninsula and failed. This failure meant that word Spain ceased to be synonymous with Iberia.

As for using the Cross of Burgundy for the flag of Spain even if it was formed by other countries with completely different dynasties, as others have been proposing, that doesn't make much sense to me. The other shields that have been proposed in the thread seem much more logical.

I think dynamic flags for formables could be a fun (moddable) feature for this immersion pack tbh. We've all seen the flag Portugal should get if they form Spain rather than Aragon/Castile, but why not a Union Jack with the St. Andrew's Cross atop St. George's if they form Great Britain after having annexed England? Maybe a dynamic red or grey Scandinavian flag if Denmark/Norway form Scandinavia, too (the present one is clearly intended for a Swedish-centered union.)

Whilst we're at it, simply make union-state formables have colours implicity tied to the dominant forming partner as well. Although one could stipulate that Portuguese Spain would inevitably come to be dominated by Castile much like Scotland was after scoring an IRL PU over England, having a darker yellow for Scots-GB or darker green for Portu-Spain would be a simple way to differentiate them at a glance.

Finally, capital changes shouldn't be automatic either. Instead trigger an event with the option to change capitals from Valencia/Lisbon to Madrid or Edinburgh to London etc. Oh and why not rename Spanish ideas to 'Castillian Ideas' and create Spain an entirely new idea set (preferrably with a free colonist idea so she can better colonize Latin America to the extent she did historically.)

Sorry for perhaps lurching off-topic, but the above situation would be the ideal solution to the quasi-historical possibillity of Portuguese-led-Spain, and I'd merely like to lay-out the larger implications such a new mechanic could have on the game.

I think the tag-switch via decision mechanic is in need of an update, it has barely changed since release (they added those awkward pop-up event windows that let you chose to keep your NIs, right?). Together with a redesign of the decisions screen, which looks really outdated below the new policies screen, they could add new tabs so that players have way more choice to customise the formable countries. They already have an interface to customise Client States that they could build upon for this purpose.

 

[CarlVonClausewitz]

Tarragona is now rightly in the Catalonia area,

WTF, but you have created a new one called Lleida which is also not in Catalonia! If you want a Lleida province, it should be the one that is currently called Urgell or somewhere around it. The province that you have named Lleida is eastern Aragon, not Western Catalonia. Please rename it to something more adequate, there are many big-ish towns or areas around there that could give this province a name. As seen in the map, this province is more like the "Lower Ebro" region, not Lleida.

It is really frustrating to see you making all those map changes just to make things worse than they were (from a geographic accuracy standpoint).

 

[PARAfel]

@neondt I know that are a minor problem, but the port in Ibiza is in the terrain okay? (You can ignore me, i know that are a minor problem)

 

[Mik_C]

WTF, but you have created a new one called Lleida which is also not in Catalonia! If you want a Lleida province, it should be the one that is currently called Urgell or somewhere around it. The province that you have named Lleida is eastern Aragon, not Western Catalonia. Please rename it to something more adequate, there are many big-ish towns or areas around there that could give this province a name. As seen in the map, this province is more like the "Lower Ebro" region, not Lleida.

It is really frustrating to see you making all those map changes just to make things worse than they were (from a geographic accuracy standpoint).

They show an update of the map in page 26 where they have fixed most names and city positions using the people's feedback.

 

[navaluiki]

@neondt I know that are a minor problem, but the port in Ibiza is in the terrain okay? (You can ignore me, i know that are a minor problem)

Perhaps that port represents the island of Formentera (which is absent by the way)

 

[RaccoonCity]

May I ask you what is it you find is lacking or being implemented lazily? The dev team is already working as much as they can, with milestones and deadlines that we endeavor to reach in an efficient and timely manner. Working more hours is not a solution when the development team is already on full-time – doing so would be counterproductive. Asking them to work more would be awful to them and would put the project in jeopardy.

Hi, there. I’m answering you now because you guys have banned me from the forum until now for my comment, which is surprising. As a costumer I can’t say that there has been some lazy work? I didn’t mean to be disrespectful, actually in the previous post I literally said “I love you, guys” to the devs. You really need to improve how to treat your costumers.

And yes, I think putting Lleida in the middle of Zaragoza is a lazy work. Someone who is working in the Iberia region can’t make a mistake like that. You can clearly see where Lleida is by opening any modern map of Spain or Google Maps. I mean, its not a little city or an unknown village, its a province you see in mostly any map of Spain (or Catalonia) you open.

But it’s okay, it’s not a big deal, you were just starting to work on the map and you have already fixed it. When you do a good job, I say it too.

 

[RaccoonCity]

About the Portugal-Spain discussion.

Portugal could have perfectly been a part of Spain. Spain is the idea of a nation that unites the iberian people. The same way the British nation tries to unite the people from the British Isles.

I can understand a Portuguese or Irish can feel offended by this, because they don’t feel (and aren’t) Spanish or British, but the truth is that from a historical and cultural point of view it makes perfect sense that Portugal reunites again with Castile, Aragon and Navarra or that Ireland reunites again with England, Scotland, Wales or Nothern Ireland.

I think Portugal should be able to form Spain if it conquers Castile or has it under a PU. It feels weird that Portugal conquers all of the Iberian Peninsula and can’t form a Spain that has the capital in Lisboa instead of Madrid and that has as a main language Portuguese instead of Castilian.

 

[Aramenian]

The Kingdom of Taoro

is there a chance that the taoro kingdom will enter the game as it was the strongest state on Tenerife
it could represent the other eight kingdoms
source of information:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menceyato_of_Taoro
I would also like to make three provinces from the Canary Islands so that the Guanches culture can come

1:Tenarife
2:Gran Canaria
3:Lanzarote
of course, you could do the mission of conquering all the islands for what would be the prize of changing the culture of Castilian

Gran Canaria should not be in the hands of Castile was finally conquered only in 1480-1483

 

[RaccoonCity]

Adding Iberia as a formable nation it doesn’t make any sense.

It’s like adding Britannia as a formable nation apart from Great Britain.

 

[pauletx]

The thing is that there was an Astur-Leonese language in all the area of "Leonese" culture provinces at the time of the start of the game (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astur-Leonese_languages) so there is clearly a different culture for the game, like Aragonese is distinct from the Catalan-Valencian culture. As I said, I don't know the official criteria for a culture to be considered in the game and I don't know if the other factors that could make Catalan, Valencian and even Balearic as different cultures, but as I understand the fact that there is a core reflects more the situation. I would prefer a "neutral" name for the culture but there is none. Also, I almost put in that post that the culture could be named Valencian instead of Catalan because of the "valencian century of gold" of culture focused in Valencia in the XV century, the start of the game.

In the area modifiers that I proposed I specified that the modifier should block the core to disappear, but I didn't think about the possibility of catalonian rebels going to the other areas. About the fact that catalonian rebels could spawn and go to the other areas I partially think you are right, here I have 2 different opinions:
* In the case that other areas have their special autonomy (or are independent) and one spawn rebels I don't think that the rebels should go to the other ones. (Edit: and neither create cores)
* In the case that all the areas lost the special autonomy I see that rebels forming in one of them could see the other ones as "part of the nationalist country" (I think about the rebels of the culture that try to create a new country based of culture and not the core). I am not saying that people in Valencia or Baleares feel Catalan (or any combination that could appear if we name the culture with another name), I am saying that rebels that spawn would consider the other areas as their culture and will try to occupy them. A province does not need unrest to get rebels that spawned elsewhere. So I think it would be even historical that rebels try to occupy the 3 areas. (Edit: to clarify, as you say some "modern nationalists" think of the other areas as part of an entire nation, so if there where "modern nationalist" rebels (maybe since age of absolutism) it is logical that they try to occupy what they see as the entire nation).

Now, about what I consider the principal problem: why Catalonia would be the primary nation of the culture? I don't think this have to be the case, I think that if there are rebels (at a cultural level, not for separatism) the resulting country if they win is the country of the area that they spawned (that is why I insisted in the fact that the cores in any of the 3 areas shouldn't disappear). Also, what if the primary nation is dynamic? I mean, if Valencian or Balear rebels spawn first or more (or even which area has more development), make them primary.

Valencia and Catalonia were quite diferent at the game start. Catalonia was liberated from muslim hands quite early, around early 800s. Valencia, on the contrary, wasnt fully liberated until 1238. Thats more than 400 years of difference of muslim rule over the territories, and obviously, the 200 years until the game start is not enough to "catalanize" a population that was protected by the "Fueros" stablished by the Aragonese King. While catalonians obviously had its rightfull weight on the valencian society, wasn't until early 1600, when the "moriscos" expulsion from Spain happened, when they would trully being the dominant culture.

Just saying that if u defend Leon having is own culture just because they may had a different language, maybe the 400 year gap of muslim rule difference between Catalonia and Valencia may be enough to consider them different.

If Valencian remains Catalan, their cores would inevitably dissapear. If catalan rebels spawn they would implant their cores on Valencia, wich would be ahistorical since the concept of "Catalan Countries (Catalonia, Valencia, and Baleares)", is a XIX Century concept, and is not well accepted on modern Valencia and Majorca. In fact, the actual catalonian separatists (at least the major part), already dropped the idea because it means a superiority of Catalonia over Valencia and Baleares, and that triggers hate.

 

[Davius]

As you said,Iberia is a word to refer to a geographical entity,Hispania is the name for the politcally entity.I think the correct name for a politcally entity that coversd all the peninsula area is Hispania (spain)

About the flag,the spanish flag in almost all years that game covers was this

That's true, but I personally prefer the coat of arms that it is now in game. It is actually saying more even thou it was constantly changing during the ages with new territories.
Anyway, the icon where this flag it's suposed to be it's shaped as a coat of arms, so I will definetely keep the Spanish coat of arms.

 

[Mingmung]

The Burgundian Cross is for, you guessed it, Burgundy.

So, the Spanish CoA is more than fine.

 

[regne_valencia]

As for using the Cross of Burgundy for the flag of Spain even if it was formed by other countries with completely different dynasties, as others have been proposing, that doesn't make much sense to me. The other shields that have been proposed in the thread seem much more logical.

The problem off putting flags with shields is that the country flag doesnt update,i mean if i have this flag,will be great for castille and portugal union,but if i integrate aragon too,the flag will doesnt update

If you have this flag,the game dont will update the flag if you integrate Portugal or other country

I think that for historical reasons and gameplay rasons the flag must be this

 

[El Overlord]

I see that we continue to insist on the question of whether if Valencian is in the game, or not.

I do not see any problem with adding it, but I will not complain if they do not.

What I do find interesting (and this I already said in another thread), is to add Spanish culture, so that it represents the intention of creating a Spanish identity beyond the identities of the Iberian kingdoms.

In the style of American culture (if the US is formed with a British cultural group (English, Scottish or Welsh), its culture becomes American).

So if a cultural nation iberica (Castile, Aragon, Portugal, Navarra, etc) forms Spain, its culture becomes Spanish (Spain becoming the primary nation of Spanish culture, as France is the Cosmopolitan).

In this way if, for example, Portugal forms Spain, the provinces of Portuguese culture under its control will become Spanish culture, and if you do not want nationalist rebels in the other provinces (Castilian, Aragonese, etc) you will have to convert them to the Spanish culture.

 

[Arbus]

The problem off putting flags with shields is that the country flag doesnt update,i mean if i have this flag,will be great for castille and portugal union,but if i integrate aragon too,the flag will doesnt update

Which is whyyyyy we need an Iberian tag