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Stellaris Dev Diary #127 - Trade Value and Trade Routes

Hello everyone and welcome to another Stellaris development diary. Today we're going to continue talking about the 2.2 'Le Guin' update, on the topic of Trade Value and Trade Routes. As said before, we're not yet ready to reveal anything about when Le Guin is coming out, only that it's a long time away and we have many more topics to cover before then. Also as said before, screenshots will contain placeholder art and interfaces and non-final numbers.

Trade Value
Trade Value is a new value that's being added in the Le Guin update for non-Gestalt empires, representing the civilian and private-sector economies of these empires. All Pops generate a small amount of Trade Value based on their living standards, with higher living standard Pops generating more trade value, and is also produced by a number of different jobs such as Clerks and Merchants. Additionally, Trade Value can be found as deposits in space, representing various resources that don't have a direct industrial application but might still be desirable to your population (for a real-life example, think of things like as precious stones used in jewelry). Trade Value has no inherent purpose, but can be turned into other resources by being exploited, representing taxation and tariffs imposed on the civilian economy by an empire that has the necessary infrastructure in place to benefit from it.
2018_09_27_1.png

In order for Trade Value to count as exploited, it has to fulfill two conditions:

1) There must be an upgraded Starbase in range from the system to collect the Trade Value. By default, upgraded Starbases can only collect inside their own system, but their collection range can be extended by constructing additional Trade Hub modules, with each module extending the collection range by a single system up to a maximum of 6 hyperlane jumps away. You do not need to build an orbital station to collect trade value from planets - this is done automatically if it is in range of a collecting Starbase.

2) Once collected, Trade Value needs to be sent to your capital system. This will be done automatically if the Starbase collecting is located in said capital system, but otherwise the Starbase must be connected to the capital through a Trade Route (more on that below).

Trade Value that is successfully exploited will be converted into other resources (currently, trade value is turned into energy credits at a 1:1 conversion rate, but which exact resources it becomes is fully scriptable and may differ depending on your empire type) and added to your monthly income.
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Trade Routes
Trade Routes are paths are that used to connect remote Starbases to your capital in order to exploit the trade value collected there. Each upgraded Starbase can support a single Trade Route by connecting to another Starbase, which is where the first Starbase will send all of its collected trade value. For example, an empire might have a remote Starbase (we'll call it starbase A), which is sending trade value to another Starbase closer to the capital (starbase B), which in turn sends on both its collected trade and all trade sent to it by starbase A on to the capital. The player has full control over which Starbase sends its value where, and can redraw routes, though there may be an efficiency loss on a newly drawn route for a time.

This means that if starbase A collects a value of 10 from the systems around it, and starbase B collects 15, 10 value will be sent from A to B and all 25 combined value is then sent on to C (the capital) and is successfully exploited. Any trade value that fails to reach the capital, either because of lack of collection, lack of a route, or piracy (more on that below) is wasted - the empire gets no benefits from it - so it'll be especially important to ensure any populous colonies that are generating a lot of trade value are properly connected via trade routes to your capital.

Trades routes will have a special map filter showing routes, protection and piracy, and is also planned to be visualized inside the systems, but more on that later.
2018_09_27_2.png

(Ignore any weird visuals such as sector borders, it's just a bug)

Piracy and Trade Defense
Of course, all that lucrative merchandise being moved through space won't exactly go unnoticed by the less savory elements of your empire. Over time, piracy will begin to accumulate along trade routes, especially routes with a high degree of trade value moving through them. For each system with piracy that the trade route passes through, a certain amount of the trade value will be lost. To combat piracy, an empire can make use of a combination of Starbases and fleet Patrols. All upgraded Starbases will have a trade protection value, that is essentially a minimum amount of trade value that will always make it through any system under their protection, regardless of the level of piracy (representing heavily escorted merchant convoys). By default, this trade protection is only for the system they are located in, but can be extended to additional systems by building defensive modules such as Hangar Bays.
2018_09_27_3.png


Additionally, any military fleet can be given orders to patrol a route between two Starbases to actively eliminate pirates and reduce the amount of piracy in the systems. The old system of spawning pirate ships in empty systems adjacent to your empire will also change - instead, pirate fleets may spawn in systems where a large amount of trade value is being lost to pirates. Overall, pirate fleets is something you will experience less often and can actively work to prevent, but will be more of an actual threat when they do spawn. We will most likely keep some sort of penalty for having a sprawling empire with a lot of unprotected connections, possibly by simply raising the amount of piracy experienced along your trade routes, or some sort of efficiency penalty. We may also have a system similar to the old pirates for Gestalts, since they do not have access to Trade Value or Trade Routes.
2018_09_27_4.png

(Yes, we know the grammar/spelling is wrong, no need to point it out - the icons are also placeholders)

That's all for today! Next week we're continuing to talk about the Le Guin update, on the topic of Decisions and Planetary Bombardment

EDIT: Since it keeps being asked, at this point we are not ready to talk about how trade trades/trade agreements with other empires will work, only that they will exist in some form.
 
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I had thought a few days about it now, and honestly I have to consider.
It sounds good in theory, but I'm not sure trade value and routes will be a funny and interesting addition to the game.
It feels like something you have to do to gain an already known resource?!
 
Does that seems if we get ripped your starbase inside a war but your fleet is partoling inside this trade route, the fleet will insta appears in front of the enemy? WHAT A BIG FLUKE! That meens the pacific ways is very much stronger than the hard brutal way!

If it not maybe the patrol is broken but where the fleet spawn after a plunder? At the start of the trade route? the end? nowhere inside the trade route path? (the last one will be very immersive but unprogrammable...) Or even worse! inside your major starbase which means when you protect a trade line you are very disavantaged versus a surprised incoming attack (the end diseasters)

I write my first comment... don't be rude i haven't read all the tons of message of this topic. If someone already answer please redirect me!
(Fr sorry for the grammaticals faults ^^)
 
@Wiz Isn’t this a good/better idea? Why would you get to choose your own trade routes? Doesn’t that sound very... communistic?

Honestly i view it as the government creating a designated route for trade to flow, like a highway. Today the government decides were most infrastructure goes, so it makes sense a space fairing government would also designate the best and safest path for trade goods. You also have to think that if they dont (ie the trade is value is not collected and sente to the capital) trade still happens, there is just no taxation on it. My only problem is that it trade invairably heads to the capital, which makes it seem more like taxation. Bt if they add the option to add more collection spots, it would make sense. Many countries have large cities where most of the trade naturally flows to and that eventually have so much power because of it they direct the trade towards them as they build the infrastucture needed to sustain it. A space fairing civ would obviously at the start have the infrastrucutre centered on the homeworld, so all trade flows to it, and then to the other worlds. But then as the empire develops, more important trade hubs appear that allow trade to flow through them instead. It does make some sense, and it is a bit realistic, not completely realistic, but the game is not trying to be that.
 
Does that seems if we get ripped your starbase inside a war but your fleet is partoling inside this trade route, the fleet will insta appears in front of the enemy? WHAT A BIG FLUKE! That meens the pacific ways is very much stronger than the hard brutal way!

If it not maybe the patrol is broken but where the fleet spawn after a plunder? At the start of the trade route? the end? nowhere inside the trade route path? (the last one will be very immersive but unprogrammable...) Or even worse! inside your major starbase which means when you protect a trade line you are very disavantaged versus a surprised incoming attack (the end diseasters)

I write my first comment... don't be rude i haven't read all the tons of message of this topic. If someone already answer please redirect me!
(Fr sorry for the grammaticals faults ^^)

The fleet would probably be at the starbase it is patrolling, so it would get wrecked with it. Although Im not sure, im not a developer.

Welcome to the forums BTW
 
So how will defensive modules like Hangar Bays function in this new update when a Stabase comes under direct attack now that they also serve a roll in the Trade System? do they still spit out fighters to attack enemy fleets, or no?

(sorry if this has already been asked, I haven't read the whole thread)
 
Honestly i view it as the government creating a designated route for trade to flow, like a highway. Today the government decides were most infrastructure goes, so it makes sense a space fairing government would also designate the best and safest path for trade goods. You also have to think that if they dont (ie the trade is value is not collected and sente to the capital) trade still happens, there is just no taxation on it. My only problem is that it trade invairably heads to the capital, which makes it seem more like taxation. Bt if they add the option to add more collection spots, it would make sense. Many countries have large cities where most of the trade naturally flows to and that eventually have so much power because of it they direct the trade towards them as they build the infrastucture needed to sustain it. A space fairing civ would obviously at the start have the infrastrucutre centered on the homeworld, so all trade flows to it, and then to the other worlds. But then as the empire develops, more important trade hubs appear that allow trade to flow through them instead. It does make some sense, and it is a bit realistic, not completely realistic, but the game is not trying to be that.

I would not treat infrastructure quite that way. There is only so much money you can throw at a specific route before it no longer makes financial sense. IE for example trying to build a tunnel through Mount Everest from China to Northern India bypassing the Himalaya mountain range when it is simpler to ship over-sea or use an already existing longer winding land route or go by air. I guess what I am trying to say is that Government doesn't always pick the route as geography can strongly influence where you can go given limited fund for infrastructure.

Now jump drive and wormhole space station are the exception to that rule.
 
For extra collection points it could just be a simple linear relationship where for every 10 clusters you fully own you can build a special trade hub building that collects trade like the capital, is relatively expensive and a high upkeep so that its a conscious choice to make them. Or even every 20 clusters since i'm not sure how many systems are inside a cluster so whichever is more balanced. As others have said then raise the systems chance of rebelling since they feel important for collecting so much trade.
 
Right now it seems like the system will be: build trade station. Upgrade so it collects trade from further away. Set trade route. Send ships on patrol. Done. Doesn’t have to look at trade again, until 50 years have passed, and I have expanded enough so I have to build a new trade station. Upgrade it. Set trade route. Send ships. Done.
and?

this isn't a game about trade routes. i shouldn't have to continually shift focus away from the big picture to fight against an AI decision-making process. that sort of unfun, tedious but essentially required micromanagement is why the current planet development system sucks so much and it's one of the big reasons that it's being revamped. why would they turn around and add it back in another form?
 
and?

this isn't a game about trade routes. i shouldn't have to continually shift focus away from the big picture to fight against an AI decision-making process. that sort of unfun, tedious but essentially required micromanagement is why the current planet development system sucks so much and it's one of the big reasons that it's being revamped. why would they turn around and add it back in another form?
Also given that ALL trade routes have to go to Capital System, whats even the point of requiring the player input to setup the routes. With the current map generation with default settings there is rarely more than 1 sensible route from A to B.
 
I had thought a few days about it now, and honestly I have to consider.
It sounds good in theory, but I'm not sure trade value and routes will be a funny and interesting addition to the game.
It feels like something you have to do to gain an already known resource?!
They are basically a slightly improved, more sophisticated version of the starbase trade hubs from current stellaris. It at least seems better than the current system of trade hubs just generating money on their own. Now to get their money we have to make sure a protected line can be drawn to the capital which probably also gives us more non-war situations to be constructing military ships.
 
and?

this isn't a game about trade routes. i shouldn't have to continually shift focus away from the big picture to fight against an AI decision-making process. that sort of unfun, tedious but essentially required micromanagement is why the current planet development system sucks so much and it's one of the big reasons that it's being revamped. why would they turn around and add it back in another form?

Well, I guess it’s all about what you want from the game. In my opinion games like stellaris, Civ etc is about conquering the other players and be the dominant player. Somewhat good games will let you do this through traditional warfare, ie ships with guns. Better games, IMHO, lets you do this in different ways, for example through diplomacy, forcing vassals, creating alliances that grows into unions, or through culture, or in this case through trade, ”stealing” other empires resources, in the long term outgrowing them.

But I guess it also depends on if you play other paradox titles. In EU4, I often look at what trade center a region sends its trade to, and that massivly impacts which regions I try to take, through war or other means. Its just, IMHO, pure fun. EU4 would be much more stale without the trade system it has, and in my opinion Stellaris is a fun, but actually a rather stale, game. A proper trade system would make it great!

In short, I think a trade system is at its best when I can conquer the galaxy without building a single warship and instead dominate through trade. (Not saying every game should play out that way, but to have that choice is great). Trade in for example civ have always been simple and boring and it doesn’t really add to the gameplay, making it rather pointless. I would be disappointed in Stellaris if trades turns out to be simple, thats not what I want from a trade system in a game.

Even shorter: Stellaris is not a game about trade routes today, but I would very much like it to be that tomorrow.
 
Imagine if they reworked the Mining Drones to use a modified version of the trade route system- Asset Protection Units patrolling between mining ops and the central Mining Drone hub station!
 
2.2 update looks more promising after every DD. I can't even play the current version anymore because it feels lacking compared to all the strategic depth and choices Le Guin will bring to the game. Amazing job, guys!

We're considering the ability to add additional collection points, but we don't want to make this easy as then there would be no need for long trade routes ever.

Personally, I'd like to be able to set a different trade capital/center of trade, but with a downside: the more rich and far it would be from the political capital, the more likely it will develop unrest or even a separatist faction.

You can draw trade through other empires so long as you have open borders.

As a "transiting" empire, being able to get tolls from that traffic would be interesting (and even more creating false flag privateers to profit from those traffics, with the risk of a huge relations malus and a casus belli if discovered). It would provide a reason to open border to empires that normally you wouldn't like in your backyard and, as the requesting empire, you could leverage on promising fat tolls to get the access you need for other reasons.
 
We're considering the ability to add additional collection points, but we don't want to make this easy as then there would be no need for long trade routes ever.

adding a cap to it , with number of pops to decide for the limit ( + research- civ ) ... at the start you would have only your capital, but by the time the empire growns more pops, the trade should increase and you should be able to have more collection points..
 
Paradox trade math doesn't work, as is tradition:

Yeelon: 44.0 potential trade,41.1 trade, 2.8 trade lost to pirates. 41.1 + 2.8 = 43.9. The rest 0.1 trade is given as tribute to the game engine gods.

i don't even know where to start from ... maybe the fact that the game considerate number under 0.00 , but show only the first digit 0.0, so you will see only rounded numbers.

or maybe that this is still WIP , as writen evrywhere in the post .
 
Looking good.
 
For extra collection points it could just be a simple linear relationship where for every 10 clusters you fully own you can build a special trade hub building that collects trade like the capital, is relatively expensive and a high upkeep so that its a conscious choice to make them. Or even every 20 clusters since i'm not sure how many systems are inside a cluster so whichever is more balanced. As others have said then raise the systems chance of rebelling since they feel important for collecting so much trade.
I think a simple cap will tend towards a system where you either want to build as many as you can or nothing over 1 is worthwhile - yawn. I'd much ratther have a game of tradeoffs and balances than one of basically linear programming optimisation.
 
...I suppose the trade route system might act as an incentive to move your capital?

If your capital winds up way on the fringes of your territory, it might just make more sense to move it somewhere more central.