Tinto Flavour #13 - 11th of April 2025 - Saxony

[Impperius]

Could we possibly get a Brandenburg / Prussia Tinto Flavour sometime soon perhaps (hopefully [please!])??

 

[Sgt._Pepper]

Does the Meißner Porzellan advance actually require you to be the first porcelain producer? Or do you always get it?

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

Does the Meißner Porzellan advance actually require you to be the first porcelain producer? Or do you always get it?

It seems to be a normal advance. Given the context I think it should be unlocked an age early, or at least be available higher in the tech tree, and replace the advance that normally unlocked porcelain production for Europeans.

 

[Idle America]

SAXONS, HAAAAAAAAAAAAAIL!

 

[Zarnek]

Good dev diary, though not very keen on the new borders around the flags, since it makes them look like a painting on a wall instead of a flag. Could it be possible to add a game rule that changes the flags to the waving ones that we had before?

 

[M Sohl]

View attachment 1279809
I undertand that it's more accurate but just like someone said for the Berber names in the past, please use simpler letters of the Latin alphabet for location names and english texts, from what I know the ß can be swapped with a double s

Are yov svggesting that all locations and map features shovld be vritten ivst vsing the letters of the latin alphabet? Vhy?

Or did you mean the english alphabet?

 

[moss_cannon_]

View attachment 1279809
I undertand that it's more accurate but just like someone said for the Berber names in the past, please use simpler letters of the Latin alphabet for location names and english texts, from what I know the ß can be swapped with a double s

For a sounder (but sadly less funny) argument against this proposal, we already have dynamic locations names and the ability to set them to always be English.
As for English texts, if they're using a proper noun from another language they need the non-English letters and it doesn't make sense to translate it. The description for the advancement "The Meißen Lion" says "also known as the Markmeißnischer Löwe" which is perfectly fine, it's an obvious proper noun from another language, so no-one will get confused by the ß and the ö, and translating it completely misses the point.
As for mixing languages, I get your point. The advancement name "The Meißen Lion" is pretty disgusting, but I don't think the problem there is the ß, it's the English words "The" and "Lion" right next to the German word "Meißen". They only half-translated the name. You could fix that by translating Meißen to Meissen and calling it "The Meissen Lion", but then that loses the flavour that the German name provides, so I think the actual solution there is to not translate anything to English, and call it "Der Markmeißnischer Löwe". It does obviously need explaining in the description but they already have that.

So TLDR, you've already got your wish with location names, and for proper nouns it really doesn't make sense to try to translate them because they only cause issues when half-translated, and fully translating loses flavour.

 

[alexgmcm]

I really like the text that gives the historical explanations, I feel like I'll learn a lot. That can't have been easy to include, so thank you for the effort!

 

[Mef]

The advancement name "The Meißen Lion" is pretty disgusting, but I don't think the problem there is the ß, it's the English words "The" and "Lion" right next to the German word "Meißen". They only half-translated the name.

"Meißen" is not a German word, it's the name of a place. "Meissen" is not a translation (like "Cologne", "Munich" or "Nuremberg" would be), it's just an alternative spelling.

 

[ibvfteh]

"Meißen" is not a German word, it's the name of a place. "Meissen" is not a translation (like "Cologne", "Munich" or "Nuremberg" would be), it's just an alternative spelling.

However, it is the spelling that is used on the map. Perhaps it is just better to unify them and select one or the other.

 

[Oglesby]

However, it is the spelling that is used on the map. Perhaps it is just better to unify them and select one or the other.

My question is how does the search function handle it? When I am using the search function and I type in 'Meis' will it show up? or do I need to learn the Alt code for eszett?

 

[ibvfteh]

My question is how does the search function handle it? When I am using the search function and I type in 'Meis' will it show up? or do I need to learn the Alt code for eszett?

So, currently on the map is double s, but if and only “if“ the decision will be to make it Meißen, than it should be searchable with double s for sure as currently both ß and ss are used interchangeably (for address for example you change ß for ss, but you also do it with öäü so not a real argument).

But! Lüneburg is on the map and I doubt developers didn’t test how to search all of them. However if I recall correctly it worked with u and not ue.

I would personally go with ss everywhere, just so nobody will pronounce it as b

 

[Mef]

My question is how does the search function handle it? When I am using the search function and I type in 'Meis' will it show up? or do I need to learn the Alt code for eszett?

I checked in Victoria 3, ß and s are not interchangeable there. I checked in Crusader Kings 3, ß and s are interchangeable there, so are ü and u.
I'm going to assume that Project Caesar is going to be more like the latter, considering how many diacritics and letters not in the English alphabet they are using on the map.

 

[moss_cannon_]

"Meißen" is not a German word, it's the name of a place. "Meissen" is not a translation (like "Cologne", "Munich" or "Nuremberg" would be), it's just an alternative spelling.

Place names are words in different languages though, as shown by the fact that you can translate them like "Cologne", "Munich", and "Nuremberg". So "Meißen" is a German word.
"Meissen" is also not an alternative spelling in German, and you can see that by looking at a couple of dictionaries like Wiktionary and Duden, neither of which give "Meissen" as an alternative spelling. Wiktionary is especially damning because it literally gives Meissen as the translation to English, and normally always mentions alternative spellings. The only minor exceptions there is Swiss German which spells it Meissen, but you wouldn't randomly use a Swiss German spelling for a place in Saxony, and considering just how different Swiss German and standard German are is you can definitely say that's also a translation.

Edit: I should probably preëmptively mention that technically, "Meissen" can be used an alternative spelling, but it's absolutely not a valid standard spelling, and you'd use it only when you absolutely cannot type ß (such as in old urls). Doing it here when you obviously can type ß would still be wrong.

 

[moss_cannon_]

So, currently on the map is double s, but if and only “if“ the decision will be to make it Meißen, than it should be searchable with double s for sure as currently both ß and ss are used interchangeably (for address for example you change ß for ss, but you also do it with öäü so not a real argument).

I think they had English location names on in the settings for the Germany map feedback post, since other place names like "Cologne" were also translated, and if you look at the original Germany map it was spelt "Meißen", presumably because they had dynamic location names on then.

I would personally go with ss everywhere, just so nobody will pronounce it as b

Please do not mess up German spelling just so English speakers who don't know German spelling have a better first try pronunciation of the letter, I can guarantee there are many other mistakes they will make anyway.

 

[M Sohl]

I understand germans who feel that their locations should be written properly, using eszett. As a swede I can absolotely relate, we use åäö and we are familiar with how english speaking people pronounce them. I understand that Malmö becomes Malmo for an american, and that Ödeshög (unpronouncable even for the locals using their Östergötnish dialect) or Höör never are pronounced correctly by foreigners. We also have translated city names, like Gothenburg for Göteborg. So I would agree with any german who wants München, Köln and Meißen on the map (in sweden we spell and pronounce those cities in the geman way so for us it's familiar).

But, if we insist on spelling Åland with an Å and Meißen with eszett, how will we handle non-latin alphabeths? Do they deserve the same privilege? Are we spelling it Москва?

 

[moss_cannon_]

But, if we insist on spelling Åland with an Å and Meißen with eszett, how will we handle non-latin alphabeths? Do they deserve the same privilege? Are we spelling it Москва?

I think their current solution is to allow special characters in latin-based writing systems, but use a latinisation for all others, which I think is probably a reasonable call. As fun as Москва or 北京 would be as location names, they're just on a different level to variations on latin. Because the latin alphabet is familiar to English speakers, it'll be easy for them to recognise, memorise, and at least try to pronounce names in the latin alphabet, even if there's special characters. That's simply impossible with completely different writing systems like Cyrillic or Chinese characters and it'll make gameplay really frustrating for anyone who can't read literally every single writing system in the world.

That being said, my personal favourite solution would be to allow enabling various writing systems, and if you have one enabled it won't be latinised. So for example if you can read Cyrillic you can enable Cyrillic in settings, and dynamic locations will allow for names like Москва. Sadly this'd be a pretty ridiculous amount of work, needing to add an entire extra dimension to dynamic location names, so it's probably best for them to stick to the latinisation solution.
Edit: as pointed out by L'Afrique below, this part was a pretty bad idea.

 

[ibvfteh]

Please do not mess up German spelling just so English speakers who don't know German spelling have a better first try pronunciation of the letter, I can guarantee there are many other mistakes they will make anyway.

I will certainly take ss over ß so as not to hear Meiben, this is my opinion.

It is not, however, an infringement on German spelling. With arguments of yours, the entire nation of Switzerland is messing with German spelling.

Both ss and ß are acceptable variants for me. Yes, they are not truly interchangeable, but it is not a "in Maßen" and "in Massen" dilemma.

Also, using modern spelling messes up historical writing, so we should even use ſʒ instead of ß, or your argument is anachronic

Edit: I should probably preëmptively mention that technically, "Meissen" can be used an alternative spelling, but it's absolutely not a valid standard spelling, and you'd use it only when you absolutely cannot type ß (such as in old urls). Doing it here when you obviously can type ß would still be wrong.

and only a German keyboard can type ß, so it is a pass for English spelling. You also use ss instead of ß when you borrow words from German into English.

As we can see in the sample

The text is not German, but English, so if the word is borrowed, it can be spelt differently. Not a "valid" German spelling but a "valid" English spelling.

Even funnier is that "Prague groschen" is not spelt like "Prager groschen"


I think sometimes clarity should be preferred. It is perhaps obvious to us the similarity of ß and ss. However, not for English speakers. And when u and ü at least look similar, the closest one to ß is b. A lot of frustration can be spawned by trying to find Meißen with the finder. Unfortunately, we are not alone in this world, and the game is not for only us

On a side note. I am not against of having a separate native spelling flag in game settings. You can have Köln, München, Meißen and Meißner groschen and also Cologne, Munich, Meissen, and Meissner groschen.

 

[moss_cannon_]

I will certainly take ss over ß so as not to hear Meiben, this is my opinion.

Fair enough, but unless we can safely have a majority opinion in your favour I think we should stick to consistency, handling ß like any other special character such as ü, or any other weird spelling rule such as the entire French language.

It is not, however, an infringement on German spelling. With arguments of yours, the entire nation of Switzerland is messing with German spelling.

Both ss and ß are acceptable variants for me. Yes, they are not truly interchangeable, but it is not a "in Maßen" and "in Massen" dilemma.

Also, using modern spelling messes up historical writing, so we should even use ſʒ instead of ß, or your argument is anachronic

Yeah I didn't really explain myself well did I? I didn't mean to imply any replacement of ß is an affront to German spelling, I just meant that replacing ß in a standard German text is wrong. Swiss German isn't exactly standard, so the country's safe from my wrath for now.
Fair enough that you find them interchangeable, but that's again an opinion, and just not standard. If you're writing in modern standard German, you use ß, and there are some things in Project Caesar written in standard German, so they should use ß. There isn't anything written in middle high German (sadly, imagine how hilarious it would be to have "Meyſſen" ingame), so it doesn't matter that modern spelling is different to historical spelling, because we're not using historical spelling.

and only a German keyboard can type ß, so it is a pass for English spelling. You also use ss instead of ß when you borrow words from German into English.

As we can see in the sample
View attachment 1281399
The text is not German, but English, so if the word is borrowed, it can be spelt differently. Not a "valid" German spelling but a "valid" English spelling.

Even funnier is that "Prague groschen" is not spelt like "Prager groschen"

Yeah you have a point here, they're definitely overstepping the bounds of what's quoting German and what's a mixed language text. That Prague Groschen really sells it. They should really just explain what a "Meißner Groschen" is, and then stick to using the English term. I don't think this is a case of needing to purge ß from the description though, the thing they need to change is recognising when to use a German word (including ß) and when to use the English translation (not including ß).

I think sometimes clarity should be preferred. It is perhaps obvious to us the similarity of ß and ss. However, not for English speakers. And when u and ü at least look similar, the closest one to ß is b. A lot of frustration can be spawned by trying to find Meißen with the finder. Unfortunately, we are not alone in this world, and the game is not for only us

On a side note. I am not against of having a separate native spelling flag in game settings. You can have Köln, München, Meißen and Meißner groschen and also Cologne, Munich, Meissen, and Meissner groschen.

As I said before, the actual functional stuff like location names is already handled in game settings. If an English speaker finds the difference between ß and ss frustrating, they can just turn off dynamic locations. Pretty much exactly what you're suggesting with the native spelling flag. You do have a point, that is an issue, it's just not the topic here because they've already solved that. The actual topic of contention here is flavour, and I think using some German words (including ß) makes that flavour more flavourful without detracting from gameplay.

Edit: I realise I should probably quote the thing about dynamic locations names:

We already have this feature. Following one of your examples, Prague is already localized in-game in four languages*: Prague (standard English), Praha (Czech), Prag (German), and Praga (Polish).

*With this I mean in-game culture/languages, so how it would appear depending on the game rule you choose (standard English, dominant culture/language of the location owner, dominant culture/language in the location).

So to summarise my take on everything:
Locations - they've already got a good solution with dynamic names that you can set to English in the settings.
Countries - this hasn't really been brought up until now but it's still worth putting it here, what I'd like is a dynamic country names option, but I understand if that messes with tags or is too much work, so I can reluctantly settle for the current system of always using English names.
Flavour - use non-English proper nouns (including all special characters like ß) when appropriate, such as in advancement names and in explanations, and do not half translate names like "The Meißen Lion". Do not sprinkle them throughout English texts (as you pointed out, the description for Meißner Groschen is pretty bad and shows the problem of this sprinkling pretty well), other than explanations keep it mostly to English translations. If a non-English term is used it should have some explanation, such as in the description of "The Meißen Lion". This won't (I think) impact gameplay, and just makes the flavour more flavoursome if they handle it properly.

 

[L'Afrique]

Ай Кан рид сириллик джуст файн, бут ай дон’т фанци хавинг ту алт-таб анд чандж май киборд сэттингс ту сурч фор а провиц ор карактэр, ор ренайм сомфинг, уен ай плай аз Мусковий.

Let alone dealing with alphabets that changed over time- what script does Kazakh or Mongolian use? Hangul doesn’t exist yet. Will Korea use Hanja and get an event to swap over? Can I force the steppe people to adopt cyrillic? Changing scripts would be bonkers.