Tinto Flavour #31 - 11th of July 2025 - Aztecs

[nyetflix2]

You're absolutely right and something similar happened in places such as Colombia and Argentina. In Colombia, most Spanish colonists arrived at the inland highland regions of the Andes which were more suitable for European-style agriculture and had a more temperate climate, as well as the Caribbean coast, due to it being more accessible to travel from and to Spain. Almost all colonial cities were established in these regions. Thus, the natives in those regions were integrated more rapidly with the colonists (initially Spanish and then local born "whites" and "mestizo") to the point of being surpassed in population during the late 17th and early 18th centuries, whereas the Amazonic and Orinoco regions, which were more isolated and with harsher vegetation (rainforests and swamps) retained a predominant indigenous culture (even to the present day in some huge areas of the Colombian Amazon).

Maybe it could be interesting to give the African and Afro-descendant cultures a bonus to population growth in tropical rainforest, to reflect how they became predominant along the Pacific coast of Colombia? As well as other cases like the Garífuna in Central America or the maroons in Guyana and Suriname.

 

[Vesca]

In my opinion, being unable to attack an army that will eventually and inevitably kill your ruler, plunge you into such a disaster and turn hostile is bad gameplay. Besides, it's not like Cortez just had a walk towards Tenōchtitlan, they had to fight before reaching the Aztec lands, especially against the Tlaxcalans, who were about to wipe them out at some point, so it's not even historically accurate.

Oh if they were fighting then just make the army hostile, and advance the neighboring states and vassals contributing so that it happens immediately when they make landfall and advance one or two tiles into the country. You can also make it so they can land anywhere on your coast so you cant just stack a huge army there to intercept, they could spawn anywhere...

My understanding of Cortez was he was invited to meet the emperor, killed him, and then ran away to escape retribution.

 

[juanfegonzalezce]

Maybe it could be interesting to give the African and Afro-descendant cultures a bonus to population growth in tropical rainforest, to reflect how they became predominant along the Pacific coast of Colombia? As well as other cases like the Garífuna in Central America or the maroons in Guyana and Suriname.

We can even have events for them to create their own "independent nations" based on the slave revolts that created "Free towns" such as San Basilio de Palenque and the various quilombos in Brazil.

 

[nyetflix2]

We can even have events for them to create their own "independent nations" based on the slave revolts that created "Free towns" such as San Basilio de Palenque and the various quilombos in Brazil.

I would love to see this, my only concern is that they might be too small to represent as such? As I think usually they only consisted of one village

 

[GastonEstBonne]

I would love to see this, my only concern is that they might be too small to represent as such? As I think usually they only consisted of one village

I think it'd be an okay abstraction. I really like the idea, I think it's worth it.

 

[vinaxel33]

Why is it important for the game that an island with aquaducts providing fresh water and causeways connecting it to the mainland is depicted as an island? An island which was historically invaded by foot/horse. For gameplay purposes the defensive effect of it being an island can just as well be modelled similar to other defensive features such as hills or walls.

If you knew history, you wouldn't be saying all that, but I understand. We have to be tolerant with everyone on the forum.

But, as part of history, Tenochtitlan was invaded by ships (brigantines). Cortes ordered brigantines to be built in the area near Texcoco (some sources say there were 13 brigantines, others 12), and right there he built (with indigenous labor) a "ditch" from which he launched the brigantines into Lake Texcoco.

"So, they decided to begin their waterborne attacks. Cortés had ordered 12 brigantines built in Tlaxcala, which his indigenous allies transported to Texcoco, where they armed them. With them, they began their attacks on Acachinanco, near Tenochtitlan. They raised their flags, played drums, and attacked the Mexica who had their homes on the water. On the Tlatelolco side, the waterborne war also began; the Tlatelolcas fought in their canoes; the Spanish blasted the walls of the irrigation ditches with artillery, forcing their way to Huitzilan, where they also tore down the wall."
Source: Matos Moctezuma, Eduardo, “La muerte de Moctezuma”, Arqueología Mexicana, edición especial, núm. 93, pp. 46-55.

Other picture: Construction of brigantines

And you can find this information with a quick Google search. I know there are more sources that cover the subject.

So, YES, there were important naval battles for the conquest of Tenochtitlan. Please do some research...

 

[vinaxel33]

Anywhere here, probably.
View attachment 1333544
For scale, I'm estimating that's a roughly similar amount of space as in the Xochimilco location on the south end of Lake Texcoco, just arranged differently.

Although it's true that the area you marked (in red) is slightly larger than Xochimilco (see image below):

Let's analyze its actual situation:

Although it's a similar area, I know that if they put the buildings and units in the area you marked (in red), they wouldn't fit. Why? Because there isn't enough uniform space to accommodate them; there are irregular areas. All of that makes it slightly larger than Xochimilco. Yes, but it's not enough to say that they'll fit (buildings/units) there, for the same reason as its irregular shape. So what PDX will do is almost make the lake disappear, as long as the buildings and units fit.

Things like this don't require predicting the future, because it's already done (see image below):

So, what does the lake really mean to PDX? Is there a lake or not?

What does it depend on?

Where does the area occupied by a lake end and begin?

Can the lake area be invaded?

Are there swampy areas that serve as space for constructing buildings and placing units?

Because if PDX and all of you answer YES, then what's stopping us from treating Lake Texcoco and Tenochtitlan the same way?

Because PDX already did it, so it's not just me speculating about what PDX would do, PDX ALREADY DID IT...

 

[nyetflix2]

I agree that it would be right to give the Aztecs the Written Alphabet Writing advance (still fighting to give the advance a proper name). I think the Inca will have it due to the quipu, so it's only fair. In both cases, we're talking about proto-writing (although we still know very little about quipus, so they might be actual writing).

As for the Chinese part, the Chinese script uses a system of phono-semantic rebus too, but nowadays sounds and meanings have shifted so much that in most cases the correllation became obscure.

In the case of the Aztec system, the signs are very much pictures obviously representing something. Also, it's hard to find examples of actual text and sentences. You moreso find it used for toponyms and names and such.

 

[Idle America]

That sounds very much like post-release content ngl. unique city models.

I CAN DREAM, HAROLD!

 

[Ekyman]

Because if PDX and all of you answer YES, then what's stopping us from treating Lake Texcoco and Tenochtitlan the same way?

Because PDX already did it, so it's not just me speculating about what PDX would do, PDX ALREADY DID IT...

If you mean making the island larger, because it would have to be made so large that it would eat up most of the lake, as I've been saying. Again, it's not a situation where it just needs to be a little bit larger. It's 6 pixels and it needs to be 100. This is the point Pavia and Aldaron both made in their posts. Maybe you still prefer a giant island and tiny lake to what they have now, but personally I think it would be worse.

If you mean making the location borders overlap the lake, then I don't think that addresses most of the issues.

 

[Streamlet]

Maybe it could be interesting to give the African and Afro-descendant cultures a bonus to population growth in tropical rainforest, to reflect how they became predominant along the Pacific coast of Colombia? As well as other cases like the Garífuna in Central America or the maroons in Guyana and Suriname.

I think that would be at least partially handled by their resistance to tropical diseases like malaria? But something representing a culture's familiarity with certain terrain in general would be cool, since that's how settlement patterns and integration seems to have worked all over

 

[vinaxel33]

I would love to see this, my only concern is that they might be too small to represent as such? As I think usually they only consisted of one village

There is a very famous African named Yanga who, during the colonial era, along with other runaway black slaves, defeated the army of the Spanish Empire. Afterward, the Spanish crown allowed him to establish and govern his own territory. Yanga won his freedom and the "independence" of a territory that sheltered runaway slaves from tobacco, sugar, and other plantations.

There is a municipality named Yanga, known as San Lorenzo de los Negros, in the state of Veracruz, obviously in honor of Yanga.

 

[Streamlet]

If you knew history, you wouldn't be saying all that, but I understand. We have to be tolerant with everyone on the forum.

But, as part of history, Tenochtitlan was invaded by ships (brigantines). Cortes ordered brigantines to be built in the area near Texcoco (some sources say there were 13 brigantines, others 12), and right there he built (with indigenous labor) a "ditch" from which he launched the brigantines into Lake Texcoco.

"So, they decided to begin their waterborne attacks. Cortés had ordered 12 brigantines built in Tlaxcala, which his indigenous allies transported to Texcoco, where they armed them. With them, they began their attacks on Acachinanco, near Tenochtitlan. They raised their flags, played drums, and attacked the Mexica who had their homes on the water. On the Tlatelolco side, the waterborne war also began; the Tlatelolcas fought in their canoes; the Spanish blasted the walls of the irrigation ditches with artillery, forcing their way to Huitzilan, where they also tore down the wall."
Source: Matos Moctezuma, Eduardo, “La muerte de Moctezuma”, Arqueología Mexicana, edición especial, núm. 93, pp. 46-55.
View attachment 1333950


Other picture: Construction of brigantines

View attachment 1333951


And you can find this information with a quick Google search. I know there are more sources that cover the subject.

So, YES, there were important naval battles for the conquest of Tenochtitlan. Please do some research...

To me it seems like just another limitation of the game, as there are a lot of naval battles all over the world which wouldn't be able to happen in-game. As a random example, the Mongol invasion of Burma included 200 boats, which would be a massively inland area in-game:

In general it seems like a general military modifier for water (rivers, lakes, small islands) is more appropriate considering the game's limitations?

 

[vinaxel33]

If you mean making the island larger, because it would have to be made so large that it would eat up most of the lake, as I've been saying. Again, it's not a situation where it just needs to be a little bit larger. It's 6 pixels and it needs to be 100. This is the point Pavia and Aldaron both made in their posts. Maybe you still prefer a giant island and tiny lake to what they have now, but personally I think it would be worse.

If you mean making the location borders overlap the lake, then I don't think that addresses most of the issues.

Does anyone know how many pixels a location needs to be considered a location?

Is 100 pixels enough?

This might be quite helpful in giving an idea of what can and can't be done.

 

[nyetflix2]

I think that would be at least partially handled by their resistance to tropical diseases like malaria? But something representing a culture's familiarity with certain terrain in general would be cool, since that's how settlement patterns and integration seems to have worked all over

Ooh good point, forgot about that

 

[Riiizzz]

No maps feedback?? It's Tuesday now, the 15th

 

[vinaxel33]

No maps feedback?? It's Tuesday now, the 15th

Tinto Maps #26 Indonesia Feedback

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Maps Feedback post! Today, we will be reviewing the region of South East Asia. Let's start with the list of changes, that, as I mentioned last week, is shared between both regions, as we worked on them in...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

 

[Riiizzz]

Tinto Maps #26 Indonesia Feedback

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Maps Feedback post! Today, we will be reviewing the region of South East Asia. Let's start with the list of changes, that, as I mentioned last week, is shared between both regions, as we worked on them in...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

I feel dumb lol THANK YOU, I totally forgot that it's separate locations for these things.

 

[vinaxel33]

I feel dumb lol THANK YOU, I totally forgot that it's separate locations for these things.

Don´t worry.

The point is that it's not labeled as a Dev Diary, which is why it doesn't appear at the top of the forum.

 

[Ekyman]

Does anyone know how many pixels a location needs to be considered a location?

Is 100 pixels enough?

This might be quite helpful in giving an idea of what can and can't be done.

100 pixels is the bare minimum for important cases, though they prefer larger. Tenochtitlan would probably fall under the “important” label and could be 100.

I really suggest you click through and read the second Pavía post quoted here, because it directly addresses, with screenshots from the internal pixel map, the issue of Tenochtitlan and why it’s not as simple as just increasing the size a little bit.

To put it in context, Andorra is a location of 149 pixels size in our pixel map. Ancona, another OLM (One Location Minor) is 154 pixels. Cortona is 175 pixels. Benevento which we just added as regarded as quite necessary by the community, is 100 pixels, being a fringe case in size.

I know that people would love to have San Marino, but it's ten times smaller than the example you put. We'd love to have even smaller countries as that, but we're already pushing the limits of our technology as much as we can regarding location sizes.

We can't apply the same treatment to Tenochtitlan or other places for a simple reason: it's a matter of scale. I'm going to use the pixel map, that we use to draw the locations, to show what I'm talking about.

Here is Lake Texcoco, with the island of Tenochtitlan marked in - it's 6 pixels:
View attachment 1304722

This is what happens if I grow it to 100 pixels, the bare minimum threshold that we consider acceptable for a location to be considered playable in the 3D map:
View attachment 1304729
This looks more like modern City of Mexico than Tenochtitlan, as there's no Lake Texcoco anymore, I'd say...

On a personal level, I'd also love to have Tenochtitlan portrayed as an island; but project-wise, this is what we all think will work better for it from both a gameplay and a visual perspective

In Venice, we've been able to make an exception for two reasons: it already had the lagoon around it, allowing us to 'fake' its shape quite decently; and because of it being so important for gameplay reasons, as now it will have the behavior we want for it.

PS: Before anybody asks - we can't share the pixel map with you yet, sorry.