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Tinto Flavour #4 - 31st of January 2025 - Mali

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Flavour, the happy Fridays in which we take a look at the flavourful content created for the super secret Project Caesar! But before we start, I want to share with you that we have a new job opening in Paradox Tinto: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/come-work-for-tinto.1727521/

Today we will be traveling throughout the Sahara toward the Sahel, where the Empire of Mali stands, ruled by the infamous Mansa Mūsā:

"The mighty Mansa Mūsā Keita of Mali astonished the world one decade ago, when he performed his Ḥajj ('pilgrimage') to Mecca. Such an event was recorded by chroniclers and chanted by minstrels, and it served to establish his fame as the richest man as he spread his prodigality, gifting Zakāh ('almsgiving') gold wherever his long and luxurious courtly caravan passed by.

This display of splendor might have reflected the richnesses of the Malian lands, after its Empire expanded and consolidated under the Keita dynasty. However, one day Mansa Mūsā will pass away, and his successors may not find it so easy to rule over his very diverse holdings..."

Country Selection.png

The mighty Mansa Mūsā is still ruling Mali in 1337 (we don’t know exactly when he died, so we decided to have him as the ruler at the start of the game). As usual, please consider the UI, 2D and 3D art as WIP.

And here are the lands of Mali:
Mali.png

Some more fun camera rotations this week! Today, with the flat map mode on again.

Mali starts with one Vassal, which is Jolof:
Jolof 1.png

Jolof 2.png

Let’s take a look at some Government-related features of Mali, which can be checked in the Estates window:
Estates.png

There is one starting government reform for Mali, the Manden Kurufa:
Manden Kurufa.png

You might also notice that all Estates start with a privilege with the same icon, as it’s a similar one, made to portray the religious diversity of Mali, a country ruled largely by Mande-speaking Sunni people, but with a fragmented, but tolerant, society:
Protected Faith.png

Religions.png

The second screenshot comes from a tooltip on the Religious panel and shows the religious distribution of the country. Please note that we’ve already done the ‘Pagan’ split, but haven’t yet incorporated feedback from the West African Tinto Maps, nor reviewed the starting population.

There are also a couple of unique privileges for the 'Umarā', the Nobility of the country, that may be available later on after an event triggers:
Office of the Farima-Soura.png

Office of the Sankar-Zouma.png

Mali also starts with a couple of unique policies enacted, the first for the Distribution of Power estate law, and the other for the Levy Law military law:
Gbra.png

Ton-tan-jon-ta-ni-woro.png

Mali also starts with 3 Works of Art:
Works of Art.png

Let’s now take a look at some unique advances:
Koroukan Faga.png

This advance is the one that unlocks the Manden Kurufa government reform.

Gold of Bure.png

Mali is famous for its gold exports, yeah…

Mali has a bunch of unique units, also:
Mandekalu Levies.png

Here are the Levy units unlocked by it:
Mandekalu Infantry.png

Mandekalu Horsemen.png

You might note that the description of these two levy units refers to the Farari Corps, which is the following advance:
Farari Corps.png

That unlocks the following Regular units:
Farari Infantry.png

Farari Cavalry.png

Another unique advance:
Kele-Koun.png

That unlocks the Jonow Auxiliary, an Auxiliary unit:
Jonow Auxiliary.png

Finally, another military advance, that unlocks one more unit, and two more buildings:
Sofa Levies.png

Sofa Infantrymen.png

Sofa Barracks.png

Sofa Stockade.png

Let’s now take a look at the narrative content. This event will trigger while Mansa Mūsā is still alive, as an announcement of the potentially harsh time to come:
Zenith of the Mali Empire.png

This is the disaster that may end up triggering for your country, ‘Decline of Mali’:
Decline of Mali 1.png

It will trigger a number of nasty events, such as:
A fragmented realm.png

This event allows you to start playing with Songhai instead of Mali if you select the third option.

If you overcome the disaster, you’ll get a reward, in terms of Prestige, Stability, etc. (we need to do some balance tweaks on it, so there might be more!).

Nonetheless, besides the disaster, you can also get nicer events while playing as Mali, such as some about the development of Timbuktu:
Bolstering Timbuktu.png

And that’s all for today! I hope you enjoyed it! Next week we will travel back to Europe, to the lands of the Crown of Aragon! Cheers!
 
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How much diversity should we expect for Africa? Will most African kings be decked out just like early Mansa Musa, with the Muslims getting Musa’s new fit?

View attachment 1249521View attachment 1249522
@SaintDaveUK may be willing to talk more about how the system works (maybe in the future, when the 3D models are even more polished?), but this is a good example of how we can adjust clothing through the script of the game; as in the first screenshot, Mansa Musa was using the 'Sub-Saharan African' character and clothing models, while in the second, we're mixing the 'Sub-Saharan African' character model with the 'Middle Eastern' clothing model (which we use for Muslim characters, something that works very well to differentiate culture and religion at a glance in the Sahel or India). The crown of the ruler might also be different from being an Emperor or a King, etc.
 
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I have several remarks regarding the building UI, since it is still WiP, maybe it is useful:
1) stack the flags for requirement of village/town/city and give the flags a clearly distinguishable color. You can use this color in the location overview window too (in fact, maybe you should).
2) Increase the contrast for the age requirement icon. I do not think it is as clear as it could be, though the artwork is pretty and the contents of the picture by itself seems to convey the right message (to me). Also, since the icon is in the brown bar on top for advances, would you not want it on the same place for buildings? Instead of one tier lower?
3) It took me an age to realize the building needed slave pops to function. It is a visually complicated icon, but maybe I can blame phone screen size for this one (just make sure it is big enough for normal screen sizes to see :D).
4) the building type flags (offensive/defensive in this DD) seem too swole, too wide. I doubt you wan to convey the fact that they are buff. I would shrink them horizontally.

Lastly, I think the 3d portraits and especially the ones in this DD look quite good. Though the flag seems a bit untextured next to the more textured face and the even more textured room.
 
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Being the mightiest Empire of Sub-Saharan Africa, developing and colonizing the surrounding lands, earning huge trading profits, while also ruling a very culturally and religiously diverse population, and facing a challenging disaster on the go, would be good enough selling reasons for you? ;)
Will Mali be able to sell slaves to other countries and profit from it, especially the European powers once the slave trade takes off?
 
How much diversity should we expect for Africa? Will most African kings be decked out just like early Mansa Musa, with the Muslims getting Musa’s new fit?

View attachment 1249521View attachment 1249522
Each rulers outfit is tiered roughly by country rank. Mansa Musa is wearing emperor rank in both of those screenshots and I don't think there's many other emperors in Africa. We are also trialling middle eastern clothes on all Muslims, it feels like it makes a lot of sense when we see it play out in India and Africa but open to feedback.
 
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Each rulers outfit is tiered roughly by country rank. Mansa Musa is wearing emperor rank in both of those screenshots and I don't think there's many other emperors in Africa. We are also trialling middle eastern clothes on all Muslims, it feels like it makes a lot of sense when we see it play out in India and Africa but open to feedback.
Will the same be aplied to european muslim rulers?
 
1. Apparently, he died in 1337, yes, but in which month? This is what we don't know about, so we have decided to start with him as ruler.
2. There's an advance and an event about the Sankoré Madrasah.
I don’t know how much pushback you are getting, but I love the idea of playing MM even if just for a short while. Its like a little Easter egg.
 
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So I might have missed that 'great works' can include buildings. I'm guessing this is replacing the monuments system in EUIV? Will they have a similar mechanical depth where they add more personality to certain provinces, and give nations the ability to invest in them. I liked they also prioritized vassalization of certain nations- which gives more strategy than just annexing everything in sight.
 
I don't know? It's just obvious in the topography map. The climate map appears to have different rules (maybe some unknown level above area). Though, climate zones are also generally larger and less mixed.

Country names do not repeat. And the "zoom level" of the foreground is very different from the background. Text on a map that has more than one view angle really doesn't like to change depending on zoom.
Maybe I wasn't clear when I said it the location would depend on zoom level as I was trying to use the wording in the previous post. How about this instead; the location of the names should depend dynamically on what is visible, which inherently depends on zoom level for the flat map.

Depends. Maps do not actually need labels at all, just a legend for the color code. This legend would just be too unwieldy for political maps, hence countries are normally labelled as well as colored.
You know I am not talking about maps generically but the maps in the game as they are presented to us. The logic on where a countries name goes would be the same for where a "Forest" goes, would be the same for where "Arid" goes, etc.

Country borders normally behave in different ways than vegetation/topography. Geographical features do not care about "bordergore", the flatland "empire" has holdings on the entire world, even connected.
Plenty of players do not care about "Bordergore" (and some countries in the game).

But I do not want to have to scroll to Siberia to see that name.
Nor do I. Never have I asked for a static label. There is a middle ground between having contiguous areas splattered with "Flatlands" and having a fixed location 'Flatlands'. Which to me is that each visibly contiguous area currently in the 'view screen' needs only on label.

Repeating the topographic label more often helps to keep the labels smaller (on the order of the variation).
Smaller labels aren't more useful. I would think a less cluttered map would be more useful.

Political maps get away with one label per connected region because countries will generally be connected and at the same time there are so many of them.
Obviously the one name per country failed Delhi per your zoom requirement that you are imposing on other labels. connected regions should only need one dynamically located label by virtue of them being contiguous not by the number of labels in the set.

Country labels definitely should treat sections connected by colored wastelands as one section (if that option is selected), however. So there needs to be only one label for the Mali Empire when that setting is chosen.
I agree
 
Maybe I wasn't clear when I said it the location would depend on zoom level as I was trying to use the wording in the previous post. How about this instead; the location of the names should depend dynamically on what is visible, which inherently depends on zoom level for the flat map.
And when I pan over the map, the labels move around instantly? No, thanks. The same would happen when zooming.
You know I am not talking about maps generically but the maps in the game as they are presented to us. The logic on where a countries name goes would be the same for where a "Forest" goes, would be the same for where "Arid" goes, etc.
I was giving potential reasons, why the logic is different for different types of maps. Smaller structures justify repetitions.
Plenty of players do not care about "Bordergore" (and some countries in the game).
Sure, but the general situation is still different for countries compared to geographical features. Flatland is everywhere, but having just one label for flatland in Eurasia appear only over Siberia would defeat the purpose. And dynamic labelling is awkward when the visible area can change continuously.
Nor do I. Never have I asked for a static label. There is a middle ground between having contiguous areas splattered with "Flatlands" and having a fixed location 'Flatlands'. Which to me is that each visibly contiguous area currently in the 'view screen' needs only on label.
The issue is - as I wrote above - that the viewscreen can change fast by simply moving over the map or zooming. Updating the labels would look horrenduous in that case.
Smaller labels aren't more useful. I would think a less cluttered map would be more useful.
You could remove the labels altogether. There is a distinct limited number of types, so the colors might suffice in this case. (No need to have a map legend except for tooltip)
Obviously the one name per country failed Delhi per your zoom requirement that you are imposing on other labels. connected regions should only need one dynamically located label by virtue of them being contiguous not by the number of labels in the set.
I did not pose a requirement. I described, how I understand the system to work. Tieing the geographical name repetition to areas is a crude way to do it, but it is not entirely horrible. I hope that they find a better way in the long run, given the disparate size of areas and the weird behavior on borders.

Usually on political maps, the country name is only indicated once, so people do not expect a repetition. And zooming in does not make a new map, but keeps the label in place (Google Maps notwithstanding). They game kind of simulates a physical map or gameboard, after all.
 
edit: please do not give Ethiopian monarchs Gondarine throne rooms.
What's wrong with Gondar? Or you are just saying that not all Ethiopian monarchs should get Gondarine throne rooms, but rather they should be reserved for only emperors of Ethiopia specifically in the Age of Renaissance/after Gondar was founded as capital?
 
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Sahelian and Guinean cavalry units should have larger than average horse upkeep

Since we probably won't see a full system where North African horses are more desired but less able to survive tsetse flies and so are continuously imported from the north, increasing the demand that these states have for horses is another way to prompt a horse trade south that makes keeping control of that trade a significant part of maintaining power

It would be cool to have a colonising country with a general playstyle that's on the far end of the French North America-style of interaction with native people

Especially if that's balanced with difficulties in getting surplus population to move across an ocean when there's already so much free land available in Mali
 
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I've been following this forum for some time, but only managed to make an account now, and I can honestly say that this project is probably going to be the ultimate historical strategy game that I've been dreaming to play for decades now. So thank you Tinto team for making these amazing previews for the community.

Now on to the question. I see that in each TF discussion you decided to reveal and focus only a major part of the gameplay, like the guilds and banking system for Florence, the unique political system of Novgorod, and a little more on the military gameplay for Mali.

From a gameplay standpoint, will each one of the 60 flavour factions have a unique historical economic focus and advantages? Like the aforementioned guilds of Florence, the lucrative fur trade in Novgorod, and the huge gold reserves of Mali (mentioned briefly today). Can we expect advances, estate privileges, laws, or another tech tree focus to really "nudge" our factions to build the infrastructure and even the territorial expansion based on these historical economical factors? Are they going to be important things to consider to the type of gameplay that each faction provides?
 
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What's wrong with Gondar? Or you are just saying that not all Ethiopian monarchs should get Gondarine throne rooms, but rather they should be reserved for only emperors of Ethiopia specifically in the Age of Renaissance/after Gondar was founded as capital?
Gondar was not the site of an imperial city in 1337, and Gondarine architecture did not exist in 1337. The style only emerged due to a specific set of historical interactions between Ethiopian, Indian, and Portuguese architects and masons, starting during the 16th century, thus making it entirely anachronistic to see in 1337. It was not particularly widespread in Ethiopia, barely reaching North beyond the Tekeze, with a couple of notable exceptions (such as the rebuilt church of Mary Zion at Aksum, which was still a seemingly Aksumite style building at game-start), and it was extremely distinct in visual identity from previous traditions (though it was not entirely separate from them, just, it looked identifiably different to the point even a casual would be able to tell). I know it's very popular, but it would be somewhat... out of place, at best, in my eyes, for any period prior to the mid to late 1500s. Especially since it's not even guaranteed Ethiopia would significantly interact with Portugal in a given Project Caesar game.

Edit: Also, I think Gondarine architecture quite unfairly, given its aforementioned limited scope and later period of introduction, has become central to many-a-person's image of Ethiopian architectural history. This even though, even during this period, Aksumite traditions remained quite prominent in the country, as expressed through its rock-hewn structures. A 1337 start date with a newly ascendant (ok, relatively newly ascendant) Solomonic dynasty, gives a great opportunity to bring focus to the other architectural heritage in the country.
 
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mfw Mali emperor in Asante throneroom

Are there plans to give West Sudanic states (Mali, Songhai, I'll throw in the Hausa and Kanem-Bornu states here too) their own unique art (could be a set of generic assets for each of these, since ig they're similar enough)? It feels quite odd to give the Mali Empire throne-room art associated with modern Ghana -- even stranger given that art is filled with motifs the increasingly islamized Mali emperors would have surely seen as pagan, and given the Mali state had no serious connections to Ghana, aside from as conquerors in the region of Begho/Bono.
Realistically, we might see this changed with a future African DLC
 
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"Our economy, though, is used to a constant influx of gold and is more difficult to inflate."
What is the source for this claim?
I don't think it makes any sense. If you increase the money supply without a corresponding increase in available goods and services, you're going to have inflation.
Did Mali have a magic economic system that has since been lost to time?
It seems like an abstraction, because "Gold" was not the actual currency for the Mali Empire, Cowries, Iron bars, coins, and rings, cloth and beads were more often used as currency. So producing more gold did not necessarily increase inflation. Also they used the Gold to purchase tools, weapons and other goods from distant markets, and they used those resources to invest, and expand the empire.
 
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