Tinto Flavour #5 - 7th of February 2025 - Aragon

[Johan]

what happens to military units if you dont have enough goods to maintain them. Actually it would be good if you could make it clear what happens when you run a goods deficit, is there a order for which industries get them first? Is it a general debuff?

they wont reinforce, and they wont have morale.

 

[Ilinar]

So, a way for a French minor to get more content is to end up re-forming France.

Maybe whether someone is France should depend on who controls the majority of France, rather than requiring the complete destruction of the previous France. More like usurpation in CK2 rather than "doesn't exist" in EU4.

 

[titan.bevel]

Barcelona, as it was the main residence of the royal court since the reign of King James I. But please note that the Iberian royal courts were still mainly itinerant, which is something that we can't really portray with the current game mechanics.

PS: And we have not stolen that CK3 mechanic (yet)...

Bumping up an old suggestion I had regarding intinerant court https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...w-for-itinerant-courts.1700420/#post-29841862 (it didn't attract a lot of attention back then), but I think something could be done to represent it.

 

[Dwicarucymru]

Perhaps this may not be the Tinto Flavour to ask this on, but would it be possible to have it railroaded, to an extent, to have say like Isabella of Castile marry Ferdinand of Aragon (though obviously would mean their predecessors would have to be railroaded in or events naturally go as they did historically)? I mean ideally I feel this should be a toggleable game rule but I really wanna LARP as Charles V and spread megachins across the world.

 

[Huskermax5]

It's something that we have internally discussed (a lot). With the current mechanics, we could represent the political diversity of the the Cortes of each kingdom and the 'Cortes Generales' through a PU with 3 members. However, we would lose the political granularity that the king exerted in the kingdom; a simple example is that you couldn't build buildings like a Bailiff in the other kingdoms of the PU, just in the one that you're directly ruling.

Taking into account that the Aragonese Monarchy was much stronger on the administrative level than Castile or France, often allowking it to punch over its weight, this didn't look fine immersion and balance-wise.

Maybe in the future we can develop even more granular PU policies, and portray the complex political regime of the Crown of the Aragon more accurately; but with the current mechanics and features, we think this is the best possible representation.

Nonetheless, since PUs are completely moddable, it will be possible to easily have a mod with Crown dividided in 3 different countries from start.

Just speculating but could you implement it as a PU but set a rule so that the pu subjects act like vassals in terms of unit/money contribution and allows buildings? It uses already existing mechanics (vassals)

Yes! And the historical description in the Justicia de Aragón event is a new feature, called 'Historical Info' that the player can set on or off, depending if they're interested or not in that historically immersive piece of text.

Is there a game setting to have the AI always take historical option? Or at least heavily weigh it that way? I’d keep it off becuase going off the rails is half the fun


Forgot to grab the quote but if tag x is in PU under tag y but vassal of x does that limit integration? (Looking at you Andorra)


But also want to ask about country unique levies. Are these always better/equal to the regional normal levy (I assume France levy is different from a steppe levy like how eu4 unit pips works)?

Also how do BBC act if they’re wholly in one country? Do they act as vassals? Independent? Can the king unitary dissolve them and get a trade off ie big cash but loses access to say loans and a small temporarily loss of control?

 

[Aquila SPQR]

Also how do BBC act if they’re wholly in one country? Do they act as vassals? Independent? Can the king unitary dissolve them and get a trade off ie big cash but loses access to say loans and a small temporarily loss of control?

If I recall correctly owner of the location (Aragon in this case) can destroy them if they want if relations between him and that BBC is low.

When that will happen to the last building owned by BBC I guess it's game over for them. So basically BBCs have to always maintain proper relations with states where they operate.

 

[juanen]

Aragon has dynastical ties with Sicily, so it might be a good idea to establish a good relationship with them, and it also has a high chance to be one of the main contenders of the Italian Wars, since it already has presence in an Italian area (Sardinia).

What about their territories in Greece? Is there any flavour planned related to their duchies of Athens and Neopatras?

 

[Lucas60195]

Could you include a brief text about the military tactics and/or equipment that the unique units have in the flavour description? I know one could easily google it, but I think it makes them more special.

And could you give a small overview of the general gameplay is expected to be unique in relation to the other nations in Iberia, so why would I choose Aragon over them?

 

[Huskermax5]

If I recall correctly owner of the location (Aragon in this case) can destroy them if they want if relations between him and that BBC is low.

When that will happen to the last building owned by BBC I guess it's game over for them. So basically BBCs have to always maintain proper relations with states where they operate.

Do you know if it’s automatic if low relations or it becomes an option?

Does anything like the templars happen where you can size their assets?

 

[Zaragoza]

I just remembered, but there could also be some content at the game start regarding Juan Manuel and his Villena lordship, which was an area between Aragon and Castille (señorío/ducado). However, it would be hard to model in game the situation of a vassal having land in two different tags, it sounds more like a CKIII thing (and even in CK, it is badly modelled).

 

[Huskermax5]

Is expected navy size just an ai modifier like hoi4 Austrian painters expected division?

 

[Oglesby]

Edit: went back to check in previous Tinto Talks, Johan confirmed here that at least the upkeep cost is meant to be per kopf.

Link is broken as it has some stuff before the link.

I think I would rather see the complete cost of the unit. I assume that means that if the unit is understrength it has less maintenance including the manpower trickle (refilling to max strength would be outside the manpower trickle I would assume).

So every month those Almogavars consume 3 units of Leather. 1 unit appears to be what 1000 slaves of peasants can extract from an RGO. This isn't an RGO good, so lets look at the tannery. So every month the Almogavars consume the output of 3 tanneries which is 600 burghers output for a month. That is just for the leather.

Spoiler: Tanner

The Mandekalu is 6 units of leather a month, or 1200 Burghers in tanneries.
The Catalan Crossbow is 4.5, 900 Burghers

The Fararis must be Ferraris as it is a whopping 30 tanneries needed to supply it with just the leather _per unit_.

 

[Aquila SPQR]

Do you know if it’s automatic if low relations or it becomes an option?

I don't know, but I don't think it's automatic.

 

[FuriousFox77]

Will there be any flavor regarding the Andalusi muslim population or Aragon and their great contribution to the economy and later on their expulsion/conversion?

 

[Ispil]

I just remembered, but there could also be some content at the game start regarding Juan Manuel and his Villena lordship, which was an area between Aragon and Castille (señorío/ducado). However, it would be hard to model in game the situation of a vassal having land in two different tags, it sounds more like a CKIII thing (and even in CK, it is badly modelled).

Entirely representable as two countries under a PU, with one vassal to Castille and the other to Aragon.

 

[Ruol]

Some suggestions for institutions, laws and privileges for Aragon, although seing the aragonese fueros, the justicia and the aragonese union, I will give some more centered around Catalonia:
- Generalitat (or General Deputation): It was basically a permament representation of the courts and the 3 sates, the first one, the Generalitat of Catalonia was founded in 1359 by Pere IV, so just a couple years after the game starts. At the beginning it was a fiscal institution in charge of collecting taxes for the crown, and was ment to be a permanent representation of the 3 states to control the monarchy. In the XV-XVI centuries it evolved to a true civil executive power in balance with the legislative body of the catalan courts. Valencia and Aragon also created its own Generalitats not much later than Catalonia. It should give state satisfaction and influence, progress towards descentralization and maybe better tax collection or increased control? I think this institution has to be represented somehow in the game.
- Primceps Namque. This was a very important privilege, it is known since the XIth century and permited the prince of Catalonia to call for general levies when the principality was under foreign threat. It should give bigger levy size.
- Usatges de Barcelona: was basically the main law of Catalonia, it was a mix of the gothic law and the carolingian law.
- Consell de Cent: It was the municipal government of Barcelona. Created by James I, it growed to be the second main institution of Catalonia. It was really important for the merchant growth of the city, as it was a burgher controlled institution. It usually alied with the monarchy against the nobles and the Generalitat. And during the XVth century it became the main money lender to the broke ass kings.

For Valencian representation I can suggest the Furs de València, which was the basic law of the kingdom of Valencia, it was similar to the Usatges de Barcelona.

 

[ArVass]

Link is broken as it has some stuff before the link.

I think I would rather see the complete cost of the unit. I assume that means that if the unit is understrength it has less maintenance including the manpower trickle (refilling to max strength would be outside the manpower trickle I would assume).

So every month those Almogavars consume 3 units of Leather. 1 unit appears to be what 1000 slaves of peasants can extract from an RGO. This isn't an RGO good, so lets look at the tannery. So every month the Almogavars consume the output of 3 tanneries which is 600 burghers output for a month. That is just for the leather.

Spoiler: Tanner

The Mandekalu is 6 units of leather a month, or 1200 Burghers in tanneries.
The Catalan Crossbow is 4.5, 900 Burghers

The Fararis must be Ferraris as it is a whopping 30 tanneries needed to supply it with just the leather _per unit_.

Those do sound like reasonable numbers, by the way. War should be expensive, and and each soldier's maintenance should be backed up by 20 more men's work. I think these numbers are more or less balanced well.

The broken link points to a comment by Johan on the "Military Matters" TT, by the way

 

[john.gourley's.bucket.hat]

Is there going to be any content for an aragonese peasant republic like in eu4?

 

[Oglesby]

I see what you are doing with icons. It has a base, then a modifier in the lower right corner. Sometimes it will have a second modifier in the upper right.

Looks like there are three different base icons for trade can we unify to one. I am leaning towards the Apple/Fish/Swap arrows. If not that then the barrel but I would suggest it change to a box and barrel motif as to me the one presented gives liquid. My least favorite is the person icon.

Here the modifier for the 'monthly progress to' appears to be moving away from the icon. I see that we are trying to say it is moving to the dot but it is hard to get past the direction of the arrow. I think that just reversing the modifier should work here. Personally I feel that using "towards" instead of "to" sounds better as where you going isn't a true location.

The modifier for "Power" (and other strength things like "Trade Advantage") keeps flipping I think last time I saw the Crown power with the lightning bolt with a blob under it (which I am assuming is supposed to be land). I say go with just the lightning bolt.

Here a new maximum/cap modifier is used in the second modifier location and in red. I prefer the cap modifier as use in "Max Literacy" (I would also decide between Max or Maximun, which I would prefer the latter).

This is a little beyond icons but I figured I would add it here instead of a new post.

Doesn't the icon in the top right already indicate that this is an Advance in the Age of Renaissance? Do we also need the text line to repeat the information?

Can we add an Icon next to the age marker to indicate that the Advance has been researched instead of adding the text line? Maybe the green check wax seal?

The seal I mean, Left of the Age icon

So the typical line looks like this <icon of thing><thing><effect>.

In this case, the boat is the icon, "Maritime Pressence" is the thing and that is increases by 25 percent is the effect.
With the allows/unlocks it doesn't follow that pattern. It puts the icon of the thing and the effect left justified and the thing right justified. I suggest a change as the second line below so that it follows the pattern.

<-- the first is the original, the second a simple copy paste.

<- repeated from above to see how it flows better

Hope this has been helpful.

 

[Tissaia]

The 3D models are looking slowly but surely better as time goes on. The painted backdrops are beautiful, so the more painterly the 3D model textures are, the better they look.

Still wondering if they should have animation or not, cause if they are still, you might end up with a really dumb generated expression on a character you can't get away from lol

I agree with the first part.

But I wouldn't want to have them animated.
a) that would spoil that "painterly" look,
b) it's much more likely for them to make silly faces when they fidget all the time than when they stand still in several pre-set poses.