Tinto Flavour #5 - 7th of February 2025 - Aragon

[Pavía]

Why hide it? It's important information that disaster can spawn additional events. Well, unless every single disaster does that, but even then something somewhere should tell the player that this is the case.

We aim to show it in the disaster panel.

 

[matfer13]

Because Aragonese is an accepted culture of the country, giving it access to the reform.

I don't think this was mentioned before, can you tell us more about it? Like is this only for priviledges or does accepting a culture give something else of it like units?

 

[Movet]

Are a lot of those flavor locked behind specific tag?
In my opinion, most of them should be locked behind culture/localization of the country, goverment reform etc, not by the tag itself.

Because playing with minor nations has never had as much flavor as playing with the main ones. The French minor did not have as much content as France. The same applies to some smaller countries in Anatolia compared to the Ottomans, etc. It would also make it less painful to add tags to the game (if, for example, we create an alternative tag for Poland in mods, you will not have to edit all events/reforms/decisions, etc. to still have access to them with the new Polish tag.)
Additionally, it would make it possible to "jump between tracks" of countries, so, for example, converting to Islam while playing Castile would give us access to content for Andalusia, etc.

 

[Oglesby]

@Oglesby, it has to be per capita - in the Mali TF, the levy units with a size of 100 and the regular unit with a size of 1000 have roughly the same creation and upkeep costs listed, even though the latter is more advanced and ten times as large as the former one. I do still would like a confirmation from Pavía, though.

I would think that what the cost/maintenance of the unit would be the value that is pertinent. I would not like to have to calculate the actual cost of the unit in my head every time to see the real cost.

I hope that it is a case of 'values aren't final', but if you are correct then I hope that they change what it listed to the costs of the unit.

 

[Pavía]

If you indulge me in a small, pedantic note:

He should be either Peter III of Barcelona or Peter IV of Aragon. The first one refers to its linage and his order in the list of counts of Barcelona and, if I recall correctly, is the one that matches how he himself wrote in family documents. The second refers to his order in his main title, king of Aragon, and is the one used by aragonese historians after Jerónimo Zurita (again, if I recall correctly).

The difference is due to Pedro I de Aragon, of the Jimena dinasty. He was king of Aragon and Pamplone before the House of Barcelona got to the aragonese throne. Since he is related to the counts of Barcelona by a feminine line (being an great-great... uncle by Petronila of Aragon) he was not a direct ancestor of Peter the Ceremonious. He wasn't either a count of Barcelona or a part of the House of Barcelona.

We know, and since his main title is King of Aragon, and he is the 4th -> [name_peter]* IV.

* This is how his name is technically scripted, as it's the way we do dynamic name. So if the character would change his main culture to Aragonese, he would be 'Pedro' instead of 'Pere', and so on with any culture with a scripted variant of the name.

 

[Pavía]

ah alright, can you show the control map for aragon(and the previous TFs would be nice as well) please?

This is a matter of constant rebalance, and not something very useful to show right now. In this specific exampme, some proximity sources were rebalanced a couples of weeks ago, so the control map would have been different in TF #5 compared to TF #3, not making very useful the country comparison.

 

[matfer13]

Because Aragonese is an accepted culture of the country, giving it access to the reform.

But shouldn't Catalan and Languedocian be also part of the Pyrenean group since they have pops that live there? Also I was Checking the culture tinto talk and noticed that Catalan isn't part of the Occitan group, even if it's just geographical they are close to South France so why not?

 

[Pavía]

Have you thought about creating some vassals to represent the largest territorial domains? Even though the political system of the Crown of Aragon was not as dependent on autonomous territorial domains like the Kingdom of France, still some existed by 1337. The most powerful was probably the County of Pallars Sobirà, which was ruled as an autonomous realm by a very influential dynasty within Aragon until the last ruler picked the wrong side in the Catalan Civil war and was ultimately ousted by Ferran II.

The autonomy of Aragonese feudal lords could not be compared to that of the French or German lords, so we need to portray differently in the game.

 

[Pavía]

The Fueros not affecting any societal values is odd to me, especially with how important they were to the governance of the states in the region.

As it's a free reform that gives always useful bonuses, you will basically never remove it regardless of your gameplan - strong unique bonuses are good, but perhaps they shouldn't be 100% universal.

I would suggest it gets a small shift towards Free Subjects and towards Decentralization. This makes sense in the context of what it historically meant, as well as the direction Aragon historically moved towards.

Also, someone who wanted to turn Aragon into a unitary, despotic state, would have some reason to change out of the overall strong reform, and I think the balance of trading progress towards free subjects (something most players would want) for progress towards decentralization (something most players probably wouldn't want) makes it quite balanced as well.

Good suggestion!

 

[Zaragoza]

So, now going in with the deeper suggestions.

I first want to say that I miss mentions to the Mudejar art (part of which is World Heritage). I think that there should be an advance that give some construction bonus, as long as Aragon keeps a muslim minority (seen in Tinto Maps). It would later lead to some effects if the player expels the moriscos later on. Ideally there could be a lot of flavour regarding this minority but I don't want to ask too much on the initial release. However, I feel like forgetting a World Heritage element will be too much, specially when it can easily reinforce existing mechanics. It can also be linked to the proposed alabatro resources in the Pina de Ebro location. I don't know what the final RGO good in Pina is, but they could get a mine building to give a bonus to construction.

Antother World Heritage element I missed is the St. James road. There should be some mention to them and get some type of bonus in Jaca.

I also think there should be more content regarding burghers. There was not only a powerful nobility, but the Consell de Cent in Barcelona and the municipal power in Zaragoza and Huesca was quite relevant. Not to be self-centered, but Zaragoza for example could start with a Privilegio de los veinte advance that gives its burguers extra power. It should be something the player has to challenge later on with things like this or this.

Peasants can also have some content with an advance regarding the Comunidades de aldeas. There could be additional events linked to them during the War of the Two Peters .

I already suggested some points about the Seo/Pilar issues. But the difference between archbishops (Tarragona, Zaragoza, Valencia) and bishops may be modelled somewhat in game. I also miss any reference to universities, Lleida should start with one and Valencia and Zaragoza should get events to fund one in the right era.

Aragon also should have a Casa de Ganaderos de Zaragoza advance that give bonus to its wool and meat productions but malus to other economic aspects. I'm thinking of this. I also proposed some event chains for EUIV regarding the Canal Imperial de Aragón that could happen in the late game in that context (link in my signature).

Then, I also miss some references to Alcañiz Humanism. Its slightly later than game start, but Alcañiz could see some flavor like Valencia is shown. Pavía has already said that St. John will be explained later on but I think we should also have the Calatrava Order in Aragon in this area. I also miss mention to the Papa Luna, which should be a major event in the early game for the Crown of Aragon.

Another advance I miss is the Generalidades system (Crown of Aragon tax system: https://ifc.dpz.es/webs/atlash/indice_epocas/moderna/70.htm). It would give name to regional institutions so I think can add some flavor. It is a later system, so the tag should start with the Sobrecollida system

We have been given only a glimps about the Justicia flavour, but I strongly suggest to add something about privilegio de Manifestación. I also think the game should start with references to the Lugartenientes Generales and Bailes Generales. Later eras should advance (if the requirements are met) the Lugartenientes to Virreyes and then to Capitanes Generales. The Bailes could evolve to Intendentes.

I'm sure there is some content about the 1591 Alteraciones. However, I should note they were concurrent with other issues like the War in Ribagorza and other internobility conflicts (Cetina-Contamina, Jimenez de Urra-Guerrea y Aragón...). Since I already talked about them in other threads, I fear to repeat myself.

 

[Pavía]

Thanks for the answer.

Regarding the first point, the fuero de Jaca is definitely the most widespread. However, I should note it dates back from times of Aragones-Pamplonese union and was the basis of the navarrese fueros (Lema Pueyo wrote more in detail). I think that the fuero advance should then also be open to Navarra. I asked about the Sobrarbe one since they are more ahistorical but usually part of how the aragonese nobility later justified themselves.

Regarding the Seo-Pilar issue, thanks. If I can help draft a couple of events to persuade you to add it, let me know.

If you allow me for some suggestions for starting buildings in the kingdom of Aragon:

• Cathedrals in Huesca, Roda de Isábena, Zaragoza, Tarazona and Teruel
• Colegiatas in Borja, Daroca, Alquezar and Calatayud. There should be some event for later addition of one in Alcañiz
• Monasteries in Montearagón, San Juan de la Peña, San Pedro el Viejo, Alaón, San Victorían, Veruela, Piedra, Rueda, Sijena and Casbas
• palace in la Aljafería and torreón de la Zuda en Zaragoza. I would also add the Casas del Puente en Zaragoza, to model the high local power of the city
• Castle in Borja / Calatayud / Tarazona / Teruel (thinking ahead of the war of the two Peters)
• If there is any building for irrigation, there should be along the Ebro and Jalón locations as well as in the lower Gallego and lower Huerva representing the old network of acequias.
• I have my doubts about the papers describing the armour industry in the period, but I'd add metalworks in Calatayud
• textil works in Zaragoza and Huesca, most likely
• saltworks representing Arcos de las Salinas and Naval?
• Ceramics works in Naval / Calcena / Muel
• Hospitals for the St. James road in Jaca
• Toll buildings in Canfranc and Escatron (main tolls in the kingdom)

Regarding some aragonese people, I'll try to compile a list of proposals but it may take me the weekend.

Navarra already has access to that reform. And thanks about the rest of suggestions!

 

[Pavía]

Please blink twice if the catalans are keeping you hostage

I'm Castilian, they're locked in here with me!

 

[Didjann]

I still really think that iberian crowns should be represented as personal unions (maybe a unique form), feels like a underutilization of the system.

 

[Pavía]

That thousand yard stare...

View attachment 1251704

King Pere IV thinking once again about the result and consequences of the Battle of Muret, coloured.

 

[SavvySnake]

The 3D models are looking slowly but surely better as time goes on. The painted backdrops are beautiful, so the more painterly the 3D model textures are, the better they look.

Still wondering if they should have animation or not, cause if they are still, you might end up with a really dumb generated expression on a character you can't get away from lol

 

[ArVass]

I would think that what the cost/maintenance of the unit would be the value that is pertinent. I would not like to have to calculate the actual cost of the unit in my head every time to see the real cost.

I hope that it is a case of 'values aren't final', but if you are correct then I hope that they change what it listed to the costs of the unit.

I agree with that sentiment, although it would also be practical to see both the fully price and the price per soldier, as it seems "incomplete" regiments can exist.
A comparison of different units:

Different "light" infantries with 100-150-200 soldiers; and Farari with 1000 soldiers but the same cost:

@Pavía, are the prices meant to be taken "per soldier"? Or are they merely in huge disbalance?

Edit: went back to check in previous Tinto Talks, Johan confirmed here that at least the upkeep cost is meant to be per kopf.

 

[Pavía]

Are a lot of those flavor locked behind specific tag?
In my opinion, most of them should be locked behind culture/localization of the country, goverment reform etc, not by the tag itself.

Because playing with minor nations has never had as much flavor as playing with the main ones. The French minor did not have as much content as France. The same applies to some smaller countries in Anatolia compared to the Ottomans, etc. It would also make it less painful to add tags to the game (if, for example, we create an alternative tag for Poland in mods, you will not have to edit all events/reforms/decisions, etc. to still have access to them with the new Polish tag.)
Additionally, it would make it possible to "jump between tracks" of countries, so, for example, converting to Islam while playing Castile would give us access to content for Andalusia, etc.

It depends on the type of content. Situations are widespread, while advances are a mix of country, government, religion, sometimes culture, etc., and events are usually tag-related. In general terms, there's more conteng for the 'Great Powers' of the period. So, a way for a French minor to get more content is to end up re-forming France.

 

[Pavía]

I still really think that that should be represented as personal unions (maybe a unique form), feels like a underutilization of the system.

More than underusing the system, take it as WIP. Since it's such a new system, we're still testing its working limits, and we consider that it's better to make things work step by step, than overdoing it, and releasing a half-broken feature.

 

[matfer13]

Does Aragon have cores or specific causus belli against Arborea amd Genoa since they are the de jure rulers of Sardinia and Corsica?

 

[Trepanator]

weird, nothing about the iberian wedding? or it will be depended on the AI\player marrying and enabling the union and not by events?

Cant you wait for Castillian TF?