Tinto Flavour #9 - 7th of March 2025 - Hungary

[Makkasag]

It feels like something that can be modelled in game as the german settler chain Pavia presented.

It will probably be depicted, Eu4 had the events "Fall of Serbia" and "Statuta Valachorum" events, maybe something else too that I am misssing.

 

[DamixDatrox]

I'm gonna need some more context here. The Google translation shows this is some weird wiki talking about "crypto-jews" in the Balkans/Bosnia, but where's this claim involving the Bosnian flag? What's exactly wrong with it?

The Bosnian flag was blue, but some people claim it's red making up conspiracy theories, one of the only sides that has that red theory also has a crypto jews running the universe theory on the same side. I also believe that this side is ran by some Hungarian nationalists considering that they writing is very inconsistent indicating that it wasn't a native Serbo-Croat speaker writing the articles. Besides that on the Kotromanić page (https://wiki.royalfamily.ba/wiki/Kotromanići) it also has other theories that include the Papacy inventing the Bosnian blue colour or stealing the legitimacy of the Bosnian crown. It is really a mess and Paradox is playing along with it.

 

[ArVass]

Some ideas for missing/placeholder icons, where I could think of something:

View attachment 1262260​

Don't really know what to say for Monetary Fiefs, perhaps some generic scene of a king bestowing some appointed office on a noble. Not really easy to display abstract concepts like that.

View attachment 1262261​

This one honestly could just crop out a scene from the event's art, or, if you want something, maybe an icon of Saxon settlers moving with ox-pulled wagons, perhaps. Could also have the page for the Ostsiedlung process from the
Sachsenspiegel, or a better rendering of it:

Spoiler: The Sachsenspiegel's illustration of the Ostsiedlung

Here are some interesting advances for Hungary:

View attachment 1262268​

Again very abstract, perhaps a group of people in different folk attire interacting with eachother? A Hungarian in an early modern mente/dolmány, a Saxon in a german burgher's attire, a Slovak in a kroj, a Romanian etc.

View attachment 1262280​

The Black Army's icon could probably include either a soldier in (black*) Gothic armour with a sallet, or just the head with a sallet, and a pavise shield, both of which were characteristic to the Black Army's equipment. Some weapons, like an arquebus, or the black raven coat of arms of the Hunyadis, are also options.

Spoiler: Black Army illustration ideas

It is also possible to use a black-coded variant of the flag the Black Army used to flow; in reality, they used the real flag with whites, but as the silver coating corroded, it became black, giving birth to the (probably questionable) idea that the Black Army got its name because they carried a "black" Hungarian flag. It is not impossible that the physical banners they carried were indeed made with silver strands that oxidized to black, but it seems more likely that this backening only happened on the papers of later chronicles. Still:

*the soldiers of the Black Army didn't actually literally wear black, but it would be a fun visual clue.

A couple of war-oriented advances for the Age of Reformation:

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For Hussars, the most ideal icon would be likely an early felt shako or busby with a feather on it, a sabre, and maybe a mente or dolman, as these are the most iconic pieces of clothing for an early (16th century) Hussar. You could also alternatively use a lobster tail helmet. This link has many good reference pics, and also here are some additional images:

Spoiler: Hussar icon reference images

View attachment 1262287
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The three Reformation-specific advances could each have symbols of the given religions. The Catholic one could have a Catholic cross, or whatever religious symbol it has in the game, or, perhaps, the Cross from the top of the Holy Crown could be a fun, country-specific option too.
The Protestant one may have symbols of the three Protestant churches in Reformation-era Hungary, Calvinism, Lutheranism, and Transylvanian Unitarianism (if they are not in the game, please add them). To make them country-specific, Calvinism could use the eight-pointed "Calvin-cross", used by the Hungarian Reformed Church, the "ouroboros-and-dove" symbol of the Unitarians, and a Luther-rose (less specific, but good choice). The religious freedom advance may have all four.

Spoiler: The Holy Crown, Calvin-cross, Luther-rose, and the Unitarian dove

View attachment 1262409

The Golden Bull is an easy choice: a medieval document, with a golden seal on it. Perhaps the specific document itself:

Spoiler: The Golden Bull

 

[ArVass]

Is “release as vassal” a valid peace treaty? I imagine that’s how you’d best represent the (temporary) ottoman conquest of Transylvania.

To be exact, Transylvania did NOT become independent due to Ottomans conquering and "releasing" it, that's a common misconception. Transylvania became an independent state following the Treaty of Speyer, in which the two competing kings of Hungary, the Habsburg Maximillian II and John Sigismund Zápolya made truce, in which John Sigismund renounced his claim for the Kingdom, while Maximillian recognized his authority over the eastern parts as Prince of Transylvania. Its creation was not initiated by, nor really caused by the Ottomans, but the two sides of the treaty probably did agree to it because they felt threatened by the Ottoman advance, and concluded that continuing their civil war would have weakened themselves too much.

 

[Polesie Admiral]

To be exact, Transylvania did NOT become independent due to Ottomans conquering and "releasing" it, that's a common misconception. Transylvania became an independent state following the Treaty of Speyer, in which the two competing kings of Hungary, the Habsburg Maximillian II and John Sigismund Zápolya made truce, in which John Sigismund renounced his claim for the Kingdom, while Maximillian recognized his authority over the eastern parts as Prince of Transylvania. Its creation was not initiated by, nor really caused by the Ottomans, but the two sides of the treaty probably did agree to it because they felt threatened by the Ottoman advance, and concluded that continuing their civil war would have weakened themselves too much.

A better way to represent it is after the king dies and both a Habsburg and inner noble claim the throne a civil war(Austria vs breakaway claimant) and they both end the war in a non full annex, and if Austria makes the breakaway state to drop Hungarian claim it'll change name to Transylvania, I'll add that the ottomans just took advantage of the weak eastern Hungary claimant and made it a vassal (or a tributary)

 

[koreanjesus218]

A better way to represent it is after the king dies and both a Habsburg and inner noble claim the throne a civil war(Austria vs breakaway claimant) and they both end the war in a non full annex, and if Austria makes the breakaway state to drop Hungarian claim it'll change name to Transylvania, I'll add that the ottomans just took advantage of the weak eastern Hungary claimant and made it a vassal (or a tributary)

I disagree that it should be Austria vs a breakaway claimant, the side supporting the Austrians (or the relevant power) should be the breakaway vassal state of Austria. Janos Szapolyai held most of the land in Hungary, not Ferdinand, so it would be like saying when the Hundred Years' war started, Phillip VI was a breakaway claimant.

We don't know how succession wars will work yet, but I'm assuming the person who actually holds the most land in the realm should be the one to have the actual title, and the other claimant will be fighting for it.

 

[Polesie Admiral]

I disagree that it should be Austria vs a breakaway claimant, the side supporting the Austrians (or the relevant power) should be the breakaway vassal state of Austria. Janos Szapolyai held most of the land in Hungary, not Ferdinand, so it would be like when the Hundred Years' war started, Phillip VI was a breakaway claimant.

We don't know how succession wars will work yet, but I'm assuming the person who actually holds the most land in the realm should be the one to have the actual title, and the other claimant will be fighting for it.

You do have a point but don't forget a third of Hungary was annexed by the ottomans

 

[koreanjesus218]

You do have a point but don't forget a third of Hungary was annexed by the ottomans

TBF, that came later, after the sultan came to "help" John Sigismund secure his throne.

EDIT: So in game mechanics, I would say its like Eastern Hungary is losing against the Habsburg claimant, loses much of Hungary. Transylvania swears fealty to the Ottomans for help, who attack Austria occupying the central part of the kingdom, but instead of giving the land to Eastern Hungary, annexes it directly.

 

[Polesie Admiral]

TBF, that came later, after the sultan came to "help" John Sigismund secure his throne.

Ah didn't know xD

 

[ArVass]

A better way to represent it is after the king dies and both a Habsburg and inner noble claim the throne a civil war(Austria vs breakaway claimant) and they both end the war in a non full annex, and if Austria makes the breakaway state to drop Hungarian claim it'll change name to Transylvania, I'll add that the ottomans just took advantage of the weak eastern Hungary claimant and made it a vassal (or a tributary)

I actually had an idea for a minor Situation (or perhaps Event Chain) that could fire if Hungary is simultaneously in a civil war between two claimants and it also being invaded by a Turkish empire (which would usually be the Ottomans).
Essentially, the two claimants being in a three-sided war, make a truce, in which the winning claimant gets the title Kingdom of Hungary, while the other gets whichever area they control most as a Principality tag:
- the historical one is the Principality of Transylvania,
- but I think the short-lived Principality of Upper Hungary could also make a cameo appearance of the second claimant controls primarily Slovakia,
- and other areas like Transdanubia and the Alföld could make some dynamic tags or whatever the devs feel like

TBF, that came later, after the sultan came to "help" John Sigismund secure his throne.

Sure, but the whole civil war situation came to be in the first place after Mohács and the end of the Jagiellonians

 

[koreanjesus218]

I actually had an idea for a minor Situation (or perhaps Event Chain) that could fire if Hungary is simultaneously in a civil war between two claimants and it also being invaded by a Turkish empire (which would usually be the Ottomans).
Essentially, the two claimants being in a three-sided war, make a truce, in which the winning claimant gets the title Kingdom of Hungary, while the other gets whichever area they control most as a Principality tag:
- the historical one is the Principality of Transylvania,
- but I think the short-lived Principality of Upper Hungary could also make a cameo appearance of the second claimant controls primarily Slovakia,
- and other areas like Transdanubia and the Alföld could make some dynamic tags or whatever the devs feel like

I made an eu4 mod for myself that does something like this a while ago. My main issue is that I'm not sure anything that isn't Transylvania was really possible. Transylvania as an office/title already existed, unlike Upper Hungary. And although there was also Croatia and Slavonia, Croatia didn't have many Hungarians, and Slavonia wasn't as defendable. Transylvania was perfect for what it was. Surrounded by mountains, an existing precedent for autonomy, the many powerful noble families came from Transylvania.

Sure, but the whole civil war situation came to be in the first place after Mohács and the end of the Jagiellonians

I mentioned it because although the series of events are all connected, the periods of John and John Sigismund (at least to me) feel quite different. During John's reign, the Ottomans were mainly still an outside threat. Sure, they made incursions, captured forts, but the internal struggles were between the Szapolyai supporters and the Habsburg supporters. Ottoman influence in internal affairs came with John Sigusmund.

Also, sort of off topic, but I just remembered, there should be a Parliament debate that portrays the Rákosi végzés. It should make Hungary only be able to elect Hungarian rulers. (IRL it was never implemented, thats why the whole fiasco we're talking about happened, yes, I am a Szapolyai supporter).

 

[FleetingRain]

The Bosnian flag was blue, but some people claim it's red making up conspiracy theories, one of the only sides that has that red theory also has a crypto jews running the universe theory on the same side. I also believe that this side is ran by some Hungarian nationalists considering that they writing is very inconsistent indicating that it wasn't a native Serbo-Croat speaker writing the articles. Besides that on the Kotromanić page (https://wiki.royalfamily.ba/wiki/Kotromanići) it also has other theories that include the Papacy inventing the Bosnian blue colour or stealing the legitimacy of the Bosnian crown. It is really a mess and Paradox is playing along with it.

I see, this makes more sense now (actually doesn't, but I get you now). Wonder where Paradox got this wrong idea from, then.

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

To be exact, Transylvania did NOT become independent due to Ottomans conquering and "releasing" it, that's a common misconception. Transylvania became an independent state following the Treaty of Speyer, in which the two competing kings of Hungary, the Habsburg Maximillian II and John Sigismund Zápolya made truce, in which John Sigismund renounced his claim for the Kingdom, while Maximillian recognized his authority over the eastern parts as Prince of Transylvania. Its creation was not initiated by, nor really caused by the Ottomans, but the two sides of the treaty probably did agree to it because they felt threatened by the Ottoman advance, and concluded that continuing their civil war would have weakened themselves too much.

Yeah I found this out later. I still want a “release X as vassal” treaty but it’s inapplicable here. Do you think the civil war can be represented by normal mechanics or should its lack of mention here be concerning?

 

[ArVass]

Yeah I found this out later. I still want a “release X as vassal” treaty but it’s inapplicable here. Do you think the civil war can be represented by normal mechanics or should its lack of mention here be concerning?

1. I am pretty sure that releasing tags as a peace treaty is still a thing, at least that's what I think
2. Unfortunately, based on what the Civil Wars TT told us, a civil war cannot end with a stalemate or a truce; a civil war, including a succession crisis/pretender faction kind like the one in this case, according to Johan can only end (per normal game mechanics) if one side wins while the other is no more. Thus, by standard game mechanics, Transylvania can never spawn from a throne claimant's faction, only from independence faction rebels for example.

Because of this, I feel like an event to replicate its creation should be considered as one of the ways the Principality could form (other than releasing as a vassal/releasing in a treaty/independence faction/etc.)

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

1. I am pretty sure that releasing tags as a peace treaty is still a thing, at least that's what I think

I specifically want to release as a type of vassal though. Release as independent is definitely in but with the increased prominence of subjects releasing as a vassal seems a worthwhile addition.

Because of this, I feel like an event to replicate its creation should be considered as one of the ways the Principality could form (other than releasing as a vassal/releasing in a treaty/independence faction/etc.)

yeah, hopefully there’s some way to represent rump-states created this way, or at least the specific case of Transylvania.

 

[Caracus]

Do I have any immediate recourse if other countries steal my german pops?
Like giving them also lower taxes or outright ban them from leaving, reducing the amount that leaves?

This is probably just a minor thing but these kind of events make me wary at times because badly or unbalancedly implemented they can become uncounterable shadow mechanics.

Stuff like the forced italian uprising button spam in Victoria 3 comes to mind that bypassed established mechanics and made things uncounterable and partly unplayable.
Or the being forced puppeted as Hungary and Romania event in Hoi4.

These things got patched eventually (if you guys dont remember / never saw them)

 

[Makkasag]

Do I have any immediate recourse if other countries steal my german pops?

When two pops love each other very much....

 

[bokorthedust]

When two pops love each other very much....

You mean when mom and pop love each other very much...

 

[ArVass]

You mean when mom and pop love each other very much...

You mean when Mutter and Vater.....

Do I have any immediate recourse if other countries steal my german pops?
Like giving them also lower taxes or outright ban them from leaving, reducing the amount that leaves?

This is probably just a minor thing but these kind of events make me wary at times because badly or unbalancedly implemented they can become uncounterable shadow mechanics.

I am pretty sure they can only leave if the country has "peasant migration rights" turned on (iirc it was either a law or an estate privilege but it's a thing). Although I'm pretty sure it was part of the HRE's agenda to encourage the Ostsiedlung

 

[Solo_Adhémar]

The Bosnian flag was blue, but some people claim it's red making up conspiracy theories, one of the only sides that has that red theory also has a crypto jews running the universe theory on the same side.

The blue of the modern bosnian flag first appeared in the Illryian armorials at the very end of the 16th century. Iconographic testimonies before that, from the 15th century, all give the tinctures of the bosnian arms as Gules-Argent (Red-White). Actually Gules a bend Argent. Nothing to do with crypto jews really.