Tinto Flavour #9 - 7th of March 2025 - Hungary

[SAmaster]

I figured maybe the Black Army would be a vassal Army Based Nation for Hungary.

 

[SAmaster]

It may happen, and it may be a bit immersion-breaking. But it's also true that Hungarian kings historically their kingdom a bastion of Christendom against eastern threats, so in that regard, we think that it keeps making sense, flavour-wise.

Perhaps they keep the advance, but if they don't border any non-christians they get an event that weakens the reform as it becomes more empty rhetoric? Perhaps only firing after the medieval era (IE when the Ottomans would have had a land border with them). But then they can get the debuff removed if they border a non-christian nation for a decade or so.

 

[Sete]

Scots next week nice.

 

[Oglesby]

Back for the rest

• "death of one of both" --> "death of either"
• What does "Through Siblings of Ruler" signify?
• "Current Ruler is Ignored"
  • Are there succession that occur with a living Ruler where the ruler can remain the Ruler?
• "Form a Union in case our..." reads weird

• "for Forever" is redundant and incorrect. It would be until the Pact is dissolved and its indication is not needed.
• is the "both gain 5 trust" in addition to each listed "gain trust of X"?
• Aren't all these things that are 'While the treaty is active"?
• As these are all technically both gets, is there a reason it is separated into, Both gets, A gets, B gets?
• As this is the tooltip for the pact do we have to indicate that each party is party to the pact? (Gains <pact> for <time>) Or is that solely there for those where there is a timeout?

• What is hidden in the hamburger?
• please avoid line breaks in dates
• Also things happen "on dates" not "at dates"
• The last line feels uneeded or misplaced. (it is either restating the first line or should be the first line. Also shouldn't the first line be "As our heir is too young to be King,"
• I would reverse the 2nd and third lines. so it lists the regent and then its expiration date.
• Will it be possible to have a game rule for verbose/terse? (Even if in this case it would remove the first and last line it would reduce the clutter in this 'popup'

• Hmm.... did I find the 5?
  • King the Great d'Angio Lajos -> the Great King?
  • Leader Karoly -> King Karoly? (twice)
  • No death date listed for Karoly
  • We are listed as Ruler in Croatia instead of Our Ruler
  • The "Ruler in Croatia" is misplaced partially behind our name and not in a banner
• Bonus, but this could have been becoming "the great" where our father was just King
  • We are wearing the wrong crown/regalia

• Like the societal values line, though I would make all of the numbers neutral white as moving towards wither side could be seen as bad or good.
• Do other things have satisfaction? Can we just have Satisfaction instead of Estate Satisfaction?
• if you are going to use gain/lose then the numbers should no list + or -. If I lose -10, I would be gaining 10.
  • If you want to keep the +/- it could follow the Societal Values.
  • Either
    • "We change our Nobles Satisfaction by +10.00%" (Following the 'Nobles Levy Size')
    • "We change our Nobles Satisfaction by -10.00%"
  • Or
    • "Our Nobility gain 10.00% Satisfaction"
    • "Our Nobility lose 10.00% Satisfaction"

• Is there a reason that you changed the orientation between silver and gold bars?
• I prefer the other trade icon base instead of the meeple
• Change the sub-title to "Policy | Precious Metal Distribution Law"
• Aside, when a policy is being implemented are the effects pro-rated? or is it all or nothing deal?

Again hope this is helpful.

 

[ArVass]

True, sloppy research from my end when I fixed the borders of the formable after the Tinto Maps feedback, I've made it now accommodate the historical borders of the Voivodeship, up until the 16th century:
View attachment 1262476

Very nice fix; can it upgrade from voivodeship to principality by some advance or perhaps event?
What flag did you use for it?

And, lastly, what I miss the most about this TF, do you have anything about the autonomy, and privileges, of Székelys, Cumans, Jász, and later Hajdús, as special military people (Cuman-Jász horse archers, Székely footmen and cavalry, Hajdú infantry), and the privileges of Saxons as burghers? I feel like the dynamic these additional groups brought to the main feudal framework of Hungary is what makes Hungary unique the most, some interaction with them should be a core part of the Hungarian gameplay loop.

 

[ArVass]

You showed off events for Hungary-Poland, is there like a dynamic flag if they unite or perhaps even a formable?

I'm voting for "the Visegrad Union" or something like that

 

[Praetorian44]

• What does "Through Siblings of Ruler" signify?
• "Current Ruler is Ignored"
  • Are there succession that occur with a living Ruler where the ruler can remain the Ruler?

Remember that they use the same succession system for all governments, so if a republic has elections at certain intervals rather than on ruler death, then the ruler would still be alive and could potentially be elected. And I think the "Through Siblings of Ruler" indicates that the ruler's siblings and their offspring are eligible for succession, rather than just the ruler's children.

 

[Ispil]

I don't know if truces are the usual "5 years" that they tend to be, but if so, Serbia and Hungary should have a truce for another 2-3 years. Serbia's war with the Byzantines ended in 1334 due to, among other things, a Hungarian attack on their north that was repelled.

So, 5-year truce starting in 1334.

 

[Tokci]

In a previous Tinto post, I shared my concerns regarding the borders and cultures.

My biggest concern remains the same: the eastern borders of Transylvania are not aligned with the historical borders of Transylvania and the Kingdom of Hungary but instead follow the modern administrative borders, which were altered by the Romanian government in the 1960s to further disrupt the ethnic composition of the counties. As a result, many ethnic Székely settlements were incorporated into counties belonging to Moldavia.

It gives the impression that the current Romanian administration of Transylvania has historical roots. However, Transylvania was always an integral part of the Kingdom of Hungary until the Ottoman occupation. At times, it is mistakenly referred to as a 'vassal' of the Kingdom of Hungary, but it was never a separate entity before that period.

View attachment 1262487

View attachment 1262489

I'm hoping that my border suggestions will be adjusted by the developers. The Transylvanian borders need more refinement, and I also hope that the provinces of Lucsco and Lucensis will be added. The territory remained under Hungarian influence until the 1250s–1270s, so by the 1330s, it was still a relatively recent territorial loss.

View attachment 1262488

Additionally, a separate province named Severin/Szörényvár would be a great addition. As depicted, the Banate of Severin was lost to the Wallachians, but its capital, Turnu Severin/Szörényvár, remained under Hungarian control until the Ottoman occupation. During the territorial shrinkage of the Banate of Severin, its administrative borders shifted toward the Hungarian plains, south of the Maros River. This is why the region came to be known as Banat/Bánság—many territories were placed under the administration of the Ban of Severin




I also want to expand the Moravian part with the recently found czech article about the region, called Campus Lucsco, Provincia Lucensis -

Lucká provincie – Wikipedie

cs.wikipedia.org

View attachment 1262479

I love the maps and improvements you pointed out! Great work.

 

[ArVass]

And starting works of art:

View attachment 1262267​

Nice to see these works of art! I hope the Holy Crown will get the model it deserves (it is arguably one of the most iconic pieces of regalia in the world).

A random idea: make a DHE about the accident where the crown gets damaged (historically in the 17th century), and the Cross gets crooked into the iconic and familiar shape it is in today; bonus points if the event actually increases its quality, rather than lowering it, in an ironic twist of fate (as today it is arguably its most interesting and unique trait).

Here are some interesting advances for Hungary:

View attachment 1262268
This advance helps Hungary manage all the different cultures it starts with and also portrays a historical policy followed by many Hungarian kings in the Middle Ages.​

Which cultures are accepted in Hungary at the start of the game?

View attachment 1262279
Cumans!​

Cuman Horse Archers hell yeah!

View attachment 1262280
View attachment 1262281
Among the several options we had available to portray the infamous Black Army, we decided upon making them a regular Infantry unit. We thought about making it a unique mercenary company, but since they were usually directly on the payroll of the Hungarian kings, we thought that it would work better as a recruitable unique unit.​

I think it is overall the best option to display it like this. I also like how much firearms they need, as the Black Army had an unusually high number of arquebusiers in its ranks compared to the normal armies of their era.

A couple of war-oriented advances for the Age of Reformation:

View attachment 1262282
View attachment 1262283
View attachment 1262286
There’s a generic Hussar cavalry unit, that is available in the Age of Absolutism. This means that Hungary gets its unique Hussar cavalry unit one age earlier. They aren’t the only country with unique Hussar units, but we will show those in future Tinto Flavour…​

I think these are mostly spot-on, although I'm not sure that mentioning Matthias Corvinus in the description is necessary, though.
I also hope that you also have Hajdú regiments from the Age of Reformation onwards, they were an important fighting force in the period.

Also in the Age of Reformation, you will get these advances depending on which religion you follow; the first is for a Catholic Hungary, and the other two for a Protestant Hungary:

View attachment 1262287
View attachment 1262288
View attachment 1262289
We will explain what ‘Religious Influence’ and ‘Church Power Actions’ are in the Tinto Talks devoted to Catholicism and Protestantism, respectively. For the moment, we let you decide which religion is the True Faith, and which are Heretical and Heathen to you.​

If Transylvania gets any minor flavour (not full-fledged flavour, just some unique events, maybe advances etc.), does it get a unique Unio Trium Nationum reform, and an Edict of Torda event/advancement? (And also, if possible, Transylvanian Unitarianism as a minor religion?)

This event may also trigger on a dynamic date:

View attachment 1262355​

Regarding the Congress of Visegrád: Hungary and Poland, just like Bohemia, should also start off with an Embargo on Austria. This was also an important detail they agreed upon in the Congress, to create trade routes that avoid Vienna
Nevermind, I can't read

View attachment 1262298​

So essentially, this is a one-time unique succession type, basically?

An interesting character to recruit…:

View attachment 1262309​

Repül a nehéz kő: ki tudja, hol áll meg? Ki tudj, a hol áll meg s kit hogyan talál meg?
...
Still nice to see Eastern Name Order in proper action. Hope we'll see more characters like him!

Oh, and you may also be a secondary character in a Neapolitan plot…:

View attachment 1262310​

Minor correction: András is misspelled, it misses an acute accent on the "á".

 

[bokorthedust]

Regarding the Congress of Visegrád: Hungary and Poland, just like Bohemia, should also start off with an Embargo on Austria. This was also an important detail they agreed upon in the Congress, to create trade routes that avoid Vienna (@Pavía tagging you again in here for emphasis because it is important)

This is already in, take a look at the diplomatic screenshot description:

Not shown on the map (yet) is that Hungary is embargoing Austria, as a result of the pact made with Bohemia.

 

[jabthe189]

dunno if someone already said this but allies' subjects should display on the diplomatic map in some form or another. It looks awkward in that screenshot, I would have to check another mapmode to see which countries are Polish vassals

 

[ArVass]

This is already in, take a look at the diplomatic screenshot description:

Whoops I missed that part, thanks

 

[Oglesby]

Remember that they use the same succession system for all governments, so if a republic has elections at certain intervals rather than on ruler death, then the ruler would still be alive and could potentially be elected.

I guess I was hoping that there would be 'election laws' that were separate from succession laws.

And I think the "Through Siblings of Ruler" indicates that the ruler's siblings and their offspring are eligible for succession, rather than just the ruler's children.

I though that the "union" clause fired if I don't have a direct male descendant, I didn't think that my nephew would count. If this is the case the 'sibling' rule should not be present. If my nephew is valid then I think I need to reread the the panels and see where my confusion comes from.

 

[SauronGorthaur]

It's a unique one.

OK, this is very disappointing. It wasn't exactly uncommon and various important cases of a dynasty spreading both in the timeline of not-EUV and in the years preceding it that shaped the starting date's set up happened this way.

I get giving Hungary and Poland an option to do this easily via an event since their pact happened very close to the game start, but it should be a diplomatic option in general. It could have rather strict requirements due to the powerful expansion options it could provide. Like a really meaningful investment in diplomacy in general, like getting high diplomatic influence, focusing on conciliatory societal value, selecting diplomacy focused advances and policies, as well as having high opinion and trust with the target country.

It could really open up more diplomatic playstyle for when you don't want to (or can't and you try to adapt) expand solely through military means.

 

[Ispil]

OK, this is very disappointing. It wasn't exactly uncommon and various important cases of a dynasty spreading both in the timeline of not-EUV and in the years preceding it that shaped the starting date's set up happened this way.

I get giving Hungary and Poland an option to do this easily via an event since their pact happened very close to the game start, but it should be a diplomatic option in general. It could have rather strict requirements due to the powerful expansion options it could provide. Like a really meaningful investment in diplomacy in general, like getting high diplomatic influence, focusing on conciliatory societal value, selecting diplomacy focused advances and policies, as well as having high opinion and trust with the target country.

It could really open up more diplomatic playstyle for when you don't want to (or can't and you try to adapt) expand solely through military means.

I mean, PUs and all the rest of it still exist. It's just a very specific, negotiated union which generally speaking wasn't nearly as common as just inheriting some other title.

 

[Praetorian44]

I though that the "union" clause fired if I don't have a direct male descendant, I didn't think that my nephew would count. If this is the case the 'sibling' rule should not be present. If my nephew is valid then I think I need to reread the the panels and see where my confusion comes from.

Yes, for this specific succession law the "Through Siblings of Ruler" part is redundant, as siblings and nephews are already excluded. So far I think it's been on all the succession laws we've seen, so perhaps it was included in this one by accident.

 

[WaseK]

It's a unique one.

The same agreement for union of crowns succession was between Luxembourg's and Habsburg's over Bohemia and Austria - signed from L. side by Charles IV, it means in the PC timeframe.

 

[matfer13]

1. Event Option for the White Company event:
View attachment 1262404

2. White Company as shown in the second line of the tooltip
View attachment 1262405

3. White Company after being hired (the first is how it appear in the Military panel, the second is the tooltip that appears when you hover it):
View attachment 1262407
View attachment 1262406

Great! Also rename it to English company, it wasn't called white company when Hawkwood was in charge of it

 

[matfer13]

Do the Germans that get invited in Eastern Europe instantly change their culture to the German variant of that region? It should be the case since I doubt it's efficient to accept or tolerate every single german culture for just a few hundred pops and if you don't they may bet converted too fast