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Tinto Maps #1 - 10th of May 2024 - Low Countries

Hello everybody, and welcome to the first post of Tinto Maps! This is a new weekly series that we will be running about the top-secret game Project Caesar.

Let me introduce myself before I continue, as some of you may get to know me from the development of the latest EUIV DLCs, but I might not be as well-known to everyone as Johan. I’m Pavía, the Content Design Lead at Paradox Tinto, which I joined in 2021. Before becoming a videogame developer, my background was as a Historian, which led me to work on a PhD. in Medieval History (fool me!), which I finished in 2020. Besides that, I’ve spent several thousands of hours of my life playing Paradox GSGs since I discovered and started playing Europa Universalis 20 years ago, in 2004.

What this new series will be about is quite straightforward: each week I will be sharing with you maps of a new different region, so you have an outlook of them and we are able to receive early feedback (because as you may already know from Johan’s Tinto Talks, there is still a lot of WIP stuff ongoing).

About this feedback, we’d like you to take into account a couple of things. The first is that we’ve worked really hard to gather the best sources of information available to craft the best possible map; we used GIS tools with several layers of historical map sources from academic works, geographical data, administrative data, etc., to help us ensure the desired quality. So we would appreciate getting specific suggestions backed by these types of sources, as others (let’s say, a Wikipedia map or YouTube video with no references) may not be reliable enough. The second thing to comment on is that sometimes a certain decision we made was an interpretation over an unclear source, while sometimes we have just plainly made some errors when crafting the map (which on a 30,000 location map is a normal thing, I guess). I’ll let you know when any of these happen, and I’m also going to ask for your understanding when an error or bug is found and confirmed as such.

With those forewords said, let’s start with today’s region: the Low Countries! This is what the political map looks like:

Countries.png

The regional situation in 1337. The counties of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeeland are ruled by William of Avesnes, who is married to Joanna, daughter of Duke John III of Brabant. Another John, the Duke of Luxembourg, might be the strongest power, as he is also the King of Bohemia. The County of Flanders is the wealthiest country in the region, controlling such important cities as Brugge and Ghent. Up in the north, we have other interesting countries, such as the Bishopric of Utrecht or the Republic of Frisia (you might notice that we're using a dynamic custom country name for them, 'Frisian Freedom').

And here we have the locations:

Locations.png

We had a fun bug for some time - Antwerpen didn’t have any pixels connected to the sea, which we found because we couldn’t build any type of port building there. There’s a happy ending, as the bug has already been corrected, and Antwerpen can finally have a proper port!

Provinces:

Provinces.jpg


Terrain (Climate, Topography, and Vegetation):

Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

We are aware that the Netherlands looked differently in the 14th century, as several land reclamations took place during the Late Medieval and Early Modern periods, but we are using a 20th-century version of the map for the sake of consistency. Most of the regions throughout the world would look quite different from nowadays, and documenting those changes (especially the coastline shapes) would be a non-trivial problem to resolve. As a side note, we already removed Flevoland from it, and have already identified some other modern ones that slipped through and we'll eventually remove them, as well.

Cultures:

Cultures.png

The stripes mean that there are pops of different culture inhabiting in those location. Also, the German and French cultures are WIP, we’ll show you a proper version on later Tinto Maps.

Religions:

Religions.png

Not many religions here yet, although there will be interesting religious stuff happening eventually…

Raw Goods:

Goods.png

Goods get regularly swapped around here and there to have a balance between geographical and historical accuracy, and gameplay purposes. So take this as the far-from-final current version of them.

And an additional map for this week:

Markets.png

We reinstated a Low Countries market centered on Antwerpen, after doing some balance tweaks that made it more viable.

And these are the maps for today! I hope that you have a nice weekend, and next Friday, we will travel down south, to Iberia!
 

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The vegetation map above, at least for Belgium, that's a good map for the 2024 situation, not really for 1337... Lots of forests in the eastern half have been planted in heath areas to provide wood for the industrial revolution - specifically mines.
Did they not plant forests between 1337 and whatever the end date is almost 500 year later? They did industrialize around 1800 so at least some of the planting you mentioned probably even falls in the game's time period.

You can find many sources on lack of wood in different areas of Europe at different times and the most important goods that were imported from Eastern Europe were specifically forest related (lumber, furs, honey).
But at the same time, forest cover can change pretty quickly when you plant trees or population dies, like in Germany during the 30 Years War.
So it's basically impossible to have an accurate forest map... :(

Edit: Not the greatest source, but a quick search on Wikipedia says "Before the 19th century industrialization, the first furnaces in these four Belgian provinces (all in the Wallonia region) and in the French Ardennes used charcoal for fuel, made from harvesting the Ardennes forest."
So it looks like there was enough forest there to use for charcoal.
I also mentioned before that a blast furnace method of making bar iron was established in Wallonia in the 15th century and adopted throughout Europe. That would have been using charcoal from the Ardennes.
 
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Anyway, since I've been posting maps, why not a suggestion for topography as well. Not much changed, basically just giving the Ardennes their full extent and making Oudenaarde hilly which it deserves to be (called Flemish Ardennes for a reason).
p4NiTaf.png

Maybe the Ardennes don't have to go that far west, but it was suggested in this thread. I think Maastricht and Liège should definitely be hilly, though.

I was speaking more about the cluster drawn around the Kempen, which definitely wasn't forested :)
Ah well, yeah that area certainly doesn't have thick forests even now, but it does have some sporadic forest cover, but if that's all new and didn't exist in the time period, then it should just be flatland instead of woods.
The site you linked does say that there was large scale forestation projects that started at the end of the 19th century, but I don't think it says anything about the game's time period and if any forestation projects were happening at that time?
 
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Regarding Dutch culture in German locations: All I've seen in the posts that suggest this are references to languages, or rather local dialects that are similar to Dutch. Well, to that I would have two things to say: a) language isn't always the same as culture and b) since people spoke local dialects EVERYWHERE, there's a lot of room for interpretation. It's hard to say if a local dialect is closer to Dutch or German, because there were no standard Dutch or German as such in the time period and what is now the Dutch language was considered a dialect of German at one point.
I think you should look at cultural ties more than language in these cases - were these border locations that are German today aligned with the Low Countries to the West, or German regions to the South/East?
Culturally they were very close to the low countries back then, closer than to to south germans at least. But it was a fluent spectrum, there was no hard border anywhere.

But people on the coast in the easternmost location on the map that is shown were called "Hollandi" in contracts from the 11th century. Also "dutch" and "deutsch" are related words. In that age there simply was no hard di
 
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Culturally they were very close to the low countries back then, closer to south germans at least. But it was a fluent spectrum, there was no hard border anywhere.

But people on the coast in the easternmost location on the map that is shown were called "Hollandi" in contracts from the 11th century. Also "dutch" and "deutsch" are related words. In that age there simply was no hard di
Yeah I have no idea if these border locations should have some sort of Dutch culture or not. For me, from Southern Germany, all the people over there are basically Dutch anyway.
And Limburg was part of the German Confederation at one point, so who the hell knows. Definitely a spectrum.
 
I've only been to Belgium a few times, but I've not seen any Beer Mines or Beer Trees there.. All beers I tried were made from Breweries.
so we cannot mine Beer but we can mine Wine?:confused:
why are Sugar, Tea, Spices, Cocoa, Coffee etc under Other Raw Materials instead of Food Related Raw Materials?

suggestions for raw Materials:

Food Related Raw Materials:
Sweet potato
Yam
Cabbages
Carrots/edible Roots
Citrus(should in my opinion be split from fruit due to it's importance combating scurvy)
Sugarcane(instead of Sugar)
Sugar beet
Maple Syrup
Honey
Milk
Grapes(if beer is not a raw material then wine is not so either)
Herbs
i think Spices should be split up:
Peppers
Cinnamon
Nutmeg
Saffron
Vanilla

Other Raw Materials:
Tar
Tropical wood(Rosewood, Teak, Ebony, Mahogany)
Obsidian
Jade
Coral(precious coral/red coral)
i would split up Gems as well:
Diamonds
Rubies
Sapphires
Emeralds
Amethyst
Opal
Semiprecious Gems
 
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I also spotted a possible mistake. The region of Lille is called roman flanders. I have no clue where that name comes from. Flanders had 2 different regions split by the schelde. Imperial-Flanders and Crown-flanders. Imperial-Flanders being part of the holy roman empire east of the schelde, maybe that is where the confusion came from. As far as I know lille was their own kasselrij directly part of flanders. Perhaps just call it south flanders. It's not as wierd as the modern region of south-west-flanders.
Romance Flanders is a linguistic-cultural term and refers to the part of the County of Flanders where the inhabitants mainly spoke a Latin-derived language instead of a Germanic-derived one. Other names that refer to (approximately) the same area are:

(1) Rijsels-Vlaanderen (NL), Flandre lilloise (FR), 'Lille Flanders' (EN), which emphasizes the most important Romance language city of the County;

(2) Waals-Vlaanderen/Romaans-Vlaanderen (NL), Flandre wallonne/Flandre gallican(t)e (FR), Walloon Flanders or, in Early Modern English, Welch Flanders (EN), which emphasizes the 'Walloon'/'Roman' language the people spoke (In this time period, "Walloon' or 'Waals' [modern Dutch]/'Walsch' [Middle Dutch] was used to refer to all the Latin-derived languages that were spoken in the vicinity of the Low Countries and not just the language varieties that we now currently call Walloon).
 
Cultures:

View attachment 1130590
The stripes mean that there are pops of different culture inhabiting in those location. Also, the German and French cultures are WIP, we’ll show you a proper version on later Tinto Maps.
Can Kleve qualify as being dutch?
It is sometimes included in Low Countries region
1715412153776.png

The language there was dialect of dutch
1715412412077.png


Also I found this on Wikipedia(not the source to fully trust): ... Govert Flinck (1615–1660), who though born in Kleve established himself as a Dutch artist. ...
 
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love the maps
most points have already been commented on so to add on to that
- where are the zuiderzee islands of Marken, Urk en Schokland? are they to small to be displayed?
- Middelburg could be split into 2 or 3 locations, i would suggest adding Zierikzee, Goes and/or Vlissingen
- Please make zeeland islands, islands
- i would like to second spliting Utrecht and adding Amersfoort
- i hope we will have the ability to build De Hollandse Waterlinie
- source maps Bosatlas nederland van boven
20240510_204553.jpg
20240510_204528.jpg
20240510_204522.jpg
 
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The language there was dialect of dutch
I mean if you go by that map, then people in Düsseldorf and Remscheid were Dutch too.
This is what I meant when I wrote many pages ago that it happens way too much that someone finds a random linguistic map and decides that cultures should be distributed exactly as shown in the map.

I think we've established that there was a spectrum and people spoke regional dialects that each would be similar to their neighbor's regional dialect. Grouping those dialects together is something done by linguists, but it doesn't necessarily mean that there's an actual 'culture group' or unified culture.
 
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There is definitely an argument to be made that the culture in Limburg is more closely related to that of Kleve/Berg/Jülich than to that of Flanders.

But the line has to be drawn somewhere...
 
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Why not North and South Holland along with East and West Flanders, or vice versa with directional indications in local languages for all provinces. A bit of consistency seems nice.
 
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View attachment 1130589
We had a fun bug for some time - Antwerpen didn’t have any pixels connected to the sea, which we found because we couldn’t build any type of port building there. There’s a happy ending, as the bug has already been corrected, and Antwerpen can finally have a proper port!
Wouldn't it make more sense to extend the coastal sea tile just a bit more inland until it reaches the city of Antwerp?

Locations Low Countries - Extended Scheldt.png


The main historical advantage of Antwerp was the fact that it lies quite inland, but that sea vessels were still able to reach it. I think this would be a more elegant option than to put the port structure away from the actual city's location.
 
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I have a suggestion for a culture system that would make spitting Dutch more logical.

Have two layers of culture - a large visible Dutch culture on top, and underneath it a smaller "regional" culture (Flemish, Dutch Low Saxon, etc) that would have no (immediate) impact on gameplay. However, should the different Dutch areas come under different political or religious control, one or more of these could split off and form its own culture, potentially taking some other cultures in the group with it (in our timeline this would be Flemish, Brabantian, and Limburgish splitting off into a "Flemish" culture due to Catholic Spanish rule, but in an alternative one it could be Hollandic+Flemish+Brabantian splitting off under Burgundy, or Hollandic+Flemish+Low Saxon splitting off under a maritime empire that dominates the North Sea trade).

This could work pretty well in some other parts of the world as well to mimic both real and plausible changes during Project Caesar's timeline (some examples would be Ruthenian splitting into Ukrainian/Belarusian, fracturing of Tibetan into Utsang/Ladakhi/Khams/etc should the region fail to unify, and of course Serbo-Croatian needs no explanation).
 
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I mean if you go by that map, then people in Düsseldorf and Remscheid were Dutch too.
This is what I meant when I wrote many pages ago that it happens way too much that someone finds a random linguistic map and decides that cultures should be distributed exactly as shown in the map.

I think we've established that there was a spectrum and people spoke regional dialects that each would be similar to their neighbor's regional dialect. Grouping those dialects together is something done by linguists, but it doesn't necessarily mean that there's an actual 'culture group' or unified culture.
And I argue only for Kleve and not Düsseldorf, as it has connection to the region and historical people who usually define culture. Language map is only one of my points. But if there are records of people calling themselves Dutch and speaking Dutch and the region they are in is also sometimes combined with Dutch region, why not looking into that location or even province more?

And please can you expand on "randomness" of this map?
 
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Rather impressed with the accuracy of the map.

If you need help with finding relatively accurate sources of dutch coastlines at this time, I'd suggest this map as the primary basis for an early coastline, which is not that huge a departure from what is currently represented. Between 1350 and 1800 are the most changes due to flooding in this period, which would make the haarlemmermeer grow massively until the dutch poldered it in later in the 19th century.

Another choice could be a minimalist approach, which would most likely end up with at a map around the year 1600, where the low countries in area would be the smallest thanks to flooding, bad dyke maintanence and 80 years war. After this the republic would start recovering all the lakes and would grow in size again.
View attachment 1130969

Onto some immediate things that should be looked into
View attachment 1130984

I have numbered them:

1, 2, 3, 4 - Friesland (West Friesland is a contentious name as it can also rever to the location of Hoorn, which is West Friesland in Dutch. Meanwhile the province of Friesland in the Netherlands today was in medieval times known as Middle Friesland)
1. Harlingen is a good location, it's a somewhat important naval base of the states of friesland in the 17th century when it took that title from Dokkum. This is part of the historical region of Westergo. Franeker is a second option, it would be given a University but Harlingen is fine.
2. Dokkum and Leeuwarden are problematic as both are part of the historical region of Oostergo. Leeuwarden is the more important city here. Dokkum is important but there are many cities to represent and some have to be sacrificed. I have highlighted where Leeuwarden is on the map with the black line to the Red Dot.
3. Makkum is a bad choice for this province. This province is part of the Westergo region and would be better served with 2 far more important cities, a coastal trading city which is in decline by this period, Stavoren or Sneek, an up and coming city which is the 4th largest settlement of Friesland in modern times. Makkum however should not be picked. It is not part of the 11 Cities that were given city rights and while somewhat sizable throughout, it is far overshadowed in importance by Stavoren or Sneek.
4. This location should be rethought. It is part of the historical region known as Zevenwouden. The only city of the 11 cities that was here was Sloten. A very marginal settlement today and one that failed to properly develop. However other two good options are Heerenveen and Drachten. These are the Second and Third Largest Settlements in modern Friesland and would grow to become these important settlements during most of this period. Overshadowing places like Sloten.

5, 6, 7, 8 - This covers Groningen and Drenthe, in modern times two sparsely populated provinces of the Netherlands.
5, an option should be kept here for a location of Winsum. While not strictly necessary, it would be better to have Groningen have more locations and Drenthe fewer. Winsum was part of the Frisian Freedom and the largest settlement in the region of Hunsingo. Appingedam would then function as the location for Fivelgo and Wedde can be Oldambt. The three historical regions of the Ommelanden.
6. Groningen is a tough location. While modern day in the province of Groningen. Historically it belonged De Jure to the Oversticht and to the Bishop of Utrecht. The city however acted in defiance of the bishop and operated as an effective Free City. It would be great if it could be it's own independant location and entity in the game.
7. Assen and Emmen are both okay choices as locations. Assen is however the Capital of Drenthe and Drenthe should probably get one less location given it's historic poverty.
8. Coevorden is located much further east than is shown, I have highlighted where it should be.

9. Overijssel is in a good spot. However I would keep the historical regions more intact. Enschede is part of the region of Twente. And Twente has pretty well defined borders which could be used for it instead. It would shrink Deventer a little, but that can be compensated in the Zwolle Location a bit.

10. Somewhat of a shame to not have included Bentheim. A County which existed from c. 1050 till 1806. Lingen can move over a little. Having an extra location here wouldn't hurt given how massive Meppen is.

11, 12, 13 Gelre has historically been seperated into 4 quarters. These being Veluwe or Arnhem Quarter, the Nijmegen Quarter, Opper-Gelre and the County of Zutphen.
11. Apeldoorn can be cut, it's better if each quarter of Gelre has two Locations. Harderwijk has priority here as it would gain a University and was a Hanseatic City. Arnhem is the modern day capital of Gelderland and it's a major city in the Netherlands. Arnhem location also isn't including Arnhem the city. I have added a line here.
12. Splitting Zutphen and Doetinchem north to south like this is a bit cleaner. It allows for Doetinchem to also act as the minor baronies (or heerlijkheden) of Bergh, Wisch, Bredevoort and Borculo
13. Adding in Tiel in the western part of the Betuwe or Nijmegen Quarter would be a good choice as it was still contested between Brabant and Gelre at this time. I believe even that Tiel was part of Brabant at the startdate.

14. This is one of the regions that would be sea until the 20th century. It's called the Wieringermeerpolder or Wieringermeer at this time. Named for the tiny island that is to the northeast of this.
15. The Alkmaar location essentially covers the historical region of Kennemerland and Waterland. Given that Haarlem is the capital of North Holland. It would probably be better to make this location into Haarlem instead of Alkmaar. Although both are decent options.

16. Gouda isn't in the Gouda Location
17. Rotterdam is blocking off Dordrecht from the coast and is taking room from Dordrecht
18. Dordrecht isn't in the Dordrecht Location, I have highlighted where it ought to be.

Forgot to give it a number, but giving the province of utrecht one more location is probably smart. It's a far more wealthy and densely populated region of the Netherlands than Zeeland or Drenthe which were given 2. Amersfoort in the East is a good choice.

- Minor Addendum
View attachment 1131005
There is much less Grasslands in the Eastern Low Countries than is shown. During most of this period it would probably be seen as wooded and with the dark green forest area covering the Veluwe forest.
I think you missed the actual location of Roermond being inside Weert.
 
If it is feasible, since the game will have so much locations and is expected to be better optimised, won't it be interesting to make different levels of vassalisation in order to spice up some regions even more and get a better depiction of feudalism ? It would be like having the vassals of a vassal being a thing, like crusader kings but simplified.

It would also be nice to have vassals ranging from "in name only" to "basically annexed", the first being like the english, wich by controlling normandy were technically vassals of France, or Wallachia, wich in the 19th century was technically not an independent kingdom but a principality under the ottomans until the Balkan Wars and the unification of Romania. There are other examples too that fit better in the "project cesar" time frame like some lords at the frontier of both France and the HRE that were vassals to both, wich made them shunned by both. It will be interesting to have that represented in game in some way, unlike in eu4 were such concept is non-existant and the vassal system is bland.
 
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so we cannot mine Beer but we can mine Wine?:confused:
why are Sugar, Tea, Spices, Cocoa, Coffee etc under Other Raw Materials instead of Food Related Raw Materials?


suggestions for raw Materials:

Food Related Raw Materials:
Sweet potato
Yam
Cabbages
Carrots/edible Roots
Citrus(should in my opinion be split from fruit due to it's importance combating scurvy)
Sugarcane(instead of Sugar)
Sugar beet
Maple Syrup
Honey
Milk
Grapes(if beer is not a raw material then wine is not so either)
Herbs
i think Spices should be split up:
Peppers
Cinnamon
Nutmeg
Saffron
Vanilla

Other Raw Materials:
Tar
Tropical wood(Rosewood, Teak, Ebony, Mahogany)
Obsidian
Jade
Coral(precious coral/red coral)
i would split up Gems as well:
Diamonds
Rubies
Sapphires
Emeralds
Amethyst
Opal
Semiprecious Gems
Yea, wine should definitely changed to grape and wine making building should be added
 
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