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Tinto Maps #1 - 10th of May 2024 - Low Countries

Hello everybody, and welcome to the first post of Tinto Maps! This is a new weekly series that we will be running about the top-secret game Project Caesar.

Let me introduce myself before I continue, as some of you may get to know me from the development of the latest EUIV DLCs, but I might not be as well-known to everyone as Johan. I’m Pavía, the Content Design Lead at Paradox Tinto, which I joined in 2021. Before becoming a videogame developer, my background was as a Historian, which led me to work on a PhD. in Medieval History (fool me!), which I finished in 2020. Besides that, I’ve spent several thousands of hours of my life playing Paradox GSGs since I discovered and started playing Europa Universalis 20 years ago, in 2004.

What this new series will be about is quite straightforward: each week I will be sharing with you maps of a new different region, so you have an outlook of them and we are able to receive early feedback (because as you may already know from Johan’s Tinto Talks, there is still a lot of WIP stuff ongoing).

About this feedback, we’d like you to take into account a couple of things. The first is that we’ve worked really hard to gather the best sources of information available to craft the best possible map; we used GIS tools with several layers of historical map sources from academic works, geographical data, administrative data, etc., to help us ensure the desired quality. So we would appreciate getting specific suggestions backed by these types of sources, as others (let’s say, a Wikipedia map or YouTube video with no references) may not be reliable enough. The second thing to comment on is that sometimes a certain decision we made was an interpretation over an unclear source, while sometimes we have just plainly made some errors when crafting the map (which on a 30,000 location map is a normal thing, I guess). I’ll let you know when any of these happen, and I’m also going to ask for your understanding when an error or bug is found and confirmed as such.

With those forewords said, let’s start with today’s region: the Low Countries! This is what the political map looks like:

Countries.png

The regional situation in 1337. The counties of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeeland are ruled by William of Avesnes, who is married to Joanna, daughter of Duke John III of Brabant. Another John, the Duke of Luxembourg, might be the strongest power, as he is also the King of Bohemia. The County of Flanders is the wealthiest country in the region, controlling such important cities as Brugge and Ghent. Up in the north, we have other interesting countries, such as the Bishopric of Utrecht or the Republic of Frisia (you might notice that we're using a dynamic custom country name for them, 'Frisian Freedom').

And here we have the locations:

Locations.png

We had a fun bug for some time - Antwerpen didn’t have any pixels connected to the sea, which we found because we couldn’t build any type of port building there. There’s a happy ending, as the bug has already been corrected, and Antwerpen can finally have a proper port!

Provinces:

Provinces.jpg


Terrain (Climate, Topography, and Vegetation):

Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

We are aware that the Netherlands looked differently in the 14th century, as several land reclamations took place during the Late Medieval and Early Modern periods, but we are using a 20th-century version of the map for the sake of consistency. Most of the regions throughout the world would look quite different from nowadays, and documenting those changes (especially the coastline shapes) would be a non-trivial problem to resolve. As a side note, we already removed Flevoland from it, and have already identified some other modern ones that slipped through and we'll eventually remove them, as well.

Cultures:

Cultures.png

The stripes mean that there are pops of different culture inhabiting in those location. Also, the German and French cultures are WIP, we’ll show you a proper version on later Tinto Maps.

Religions:

Religions.png

Not many religions here yet, although there will be interesting religious stuff happening eventually…

Raw Goods:

Goods.png

Goods get regularly swapped around here and there to have a balance between geographical and historical accuracy, and gameplay purposes. So take this as the far-from-final current version of them.

And an additional map for this week:

Markets.png

We reinstated a Low Countries market centered on Antwerpen, after doing some balance tweaks that made it more viable.

And these are the maps for today! I hope that you have a nice weekend, and next Friday, we will travel down south, to Iberia!
 

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After reading this whole thread I find it odd that noone mentioned the issue of the West and East Limbourg being called that.
Limburg being the name for that region has only been relevant since Willem I was given the Duchy title in 1839.
It's also pretty odd name considering you got the Limbourg location right next to it)

I believe a better name for the western province would be Loon in analogy with Liége(which in the past was written with an acute accent and only recently with a grave one) while for the Eastern one it could be Maastricht, again same logic here. These 3 provinces are an odd one since they never had a unique distinct encompassing name.
(Edit: I was able to find the name "Landen van Overmaas" to refer to 'Eastern Limbourg')

Another nitpick about the Loon province, which was mentioned before in the comments, is the name Maasmechelen which should be replaced by either Tongeren, a roman city and first seat of the Bishopric of Tongeren-Maastricht-Liege

Also a unique feature of the Tongeren locality is the "Redemptiedorpen / Redemption towns" basically towns under the ownership of Brabant administered by Maastricht, I don't think they should be added but a mention could be cool : )
Another thing that hasn't been mentioned often is that the province of West Limburg appears to end too far south. If you were to follow the border of Kempenland on this map you would see a drop where it meets West Limburg while on the current Belgium border no such drop exists. So something is wrong there and it's either the size or the shape

Edit: ok you guys might be right about this but the drop is way bigger here than between Antwerpen and Limburg
 
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This map is very acurate and very good how ever i got some questions and issues, i dont know if they have been asked already or not, but oh well
1: why isnt the islands of Urk and schokland shown, some very small islands (some that dont exist anymore/chanced majorly) are shown yet urk and schokland arent, while they did exist back then, its understandable that you removed them as they are now part of flevoland.
2: you did include the wieringermeerpolder (northern part of the hoorn location) as land, which was poldered in 1930, before it was part of the south sea, this like the last one is understandable that you included it as isnt part of flevoland.
3: can you please make the enschede location line up with the region of twente please i beg you
 
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Where did I say no trees? There are trees growing all over the Lowlands at this time, just not the numbers at this location that would justify calling it woodland let alone a forest. Veluwe actually originates from what in English would translate into fallow wasteland. There is an academic paper in Dutch of van Bath (not certain on the name though) regarding agricultural production in the Veluwe region based on historic documents of the 13th and 14th century. The area was settled between 1000 and 1200. That shows that almost all settlements were at the edge near wetter, lower, river sides Rijn and IJssel and bordering the Zuiderzee. Oats and other sturdy grains being the most important produce and trading in low numbers of pigs compared to other Dutch regions because of a lack of area to have them forage in woodlands (akeren being the most common practice to farm pigs). Also there are pollen studies that show that heath was the dominant vegetation type, so making this area produce wool would be quite right as those were the animals used to graze those.
Well you did say that you would hardly find any woodland. I guess we don't really know how many trees are needed to qualify for woods. Also since we're talking about a span of almost 500 years, certain locations could have changed between grassland and woods over time, depending on if people were clearing trees or not.
But if they didn't even have enough woods to feed pigs, that does sound just like pure grassland.
The article about the geest in Schleswig-Holstein that I mentioned specifically talks about how there were huge numbers of pigs, even imported from other parts of Northern Germany (which did not have many trees), so that's a big difference.

(Updated my suggestion map btw, now there are no woods left in the Netherlands)
 
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Mef, whatever happened in Schleswig Holstein, if for now at least 4 local people take their time to say the tinto map is better than yours in the Kempen and the Veluwe for some very specific reason, maybe trust them?
 
Mef, whatever happened in Schleswig Holstein, if for now at least 4 local people take their time to say the tinto map is better than yours in the Kempen and the Veluwe for some very specific reason, maybe trust them?
Huh? I just updated my suggestion map and removed the Veluwe woods, now there's grassland in the entire Netherlands, just like the map in the opening post.
I removed it from the Kempen area days ago, after what you said.
So not sure how you get the idea that I don't trust the input. All I care about is the game getting a representation of the real historical world that is as accurate as possible.

I'm still trying to figure out if there is a pattern regarding woods being present in geest before the 1700s, but it doesn't look like it.
 
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I would like to give some feedback points about the Low Countries:
  • Although the county of Zutphen had not had its own count for a long time in 1337, it was a separate entity from the Duchy of Gelre. It would therefore be better to allow the county of Zutphen to exist as a separate county in personal union with the Duchy of Gelre. It could even be considered to further decentralize the county of Zutphen: in the south the Lordship Bergh as a vassal of Zutphen and in the east the Lordship Borculo as a vassal of Münster.
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  • The county of Chiny should still exist separately from the county of Luxembourg with Diederik of Heinsberg as count. It was not until June 16, 1364 that Chiny was sold to the counts of Luxembourg.
  • It could be considered to split off the Lordship of Breda (and maybe the marquisate of Bergen op Zoom?) as a vassal from Brabant. The lords of Breda were historically very powerful and the barony even played an important role in the rise of the House of Nassau in the Netherlands.
  • Tournaisis should exist as a separate entity from the county of Flanders.
  • The city of Groningen should certainly have been an independent city in 1337. It was formally part of the bishopric of Utrecht, but it had been operating as an independent city for centuries in 1337. In addition, it had a lot of influence in the Frisian areas, but it was certainly not part of it.
  • The county of Bentheim should have existed in 1337. It was a county with a long history and in 1337 there was even a count in power there from the old, original count family of the House of Holland (Simon I Gerulfing, count of Bentheim).
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  • The Frisian lands should have been very decentralized in 1337. After the Black Death in 1350, the Frisian area crumbled into very small countries. Local rulers often had control over several villages. In 1337 this can be shown by making all kinds of 'gaue' independent of each other. Think of Westergo, Oostergo, Bornego, Hunsingo, Fivelgo, Eemsgo, Norderland, Moormerland, Harlingerland, Auricherland, and so on. Continuing on from this: the boundaries of individual locations in the Frisian areas do not correspond with the shire boundaries of that time. The 'Leeuwarden' location, for example, is positioned very strangely. There should also be a location 'Hunsingo' north of Groningen. The locations 'Wittmund' and 'Varel' should also be split in East Frisia. North of Aurich and Varel lay the Harlingerland and Jeverland. Both areas had a very separate and interesting history, separate from East Frisia and Oldenburg. The Stadland and Butjadingen north of Oldenburg should also still be independent of the county of Oldenburg. Oldenburg only gained a foothold in these areas in the 16th century. Finally, the 'Wedde' location was not part of the Frisian lands. It belonged to the bishopric Münster at this time. It also did not have a Frisian population, but a Lower Saxon one.
  • The 'Dutch' and 'Flemish' cultures should be further divided into the following cultures: 'Flemish', 'Brabantian', 'Hollandic', 'South Gueldrish/Kleverlandic' and 'Dutch Low Saxon/Westphalic'. You can also choose to merge 'South Gueldrish' with 'Brabantian' and to merge 'Dutch Low Saxon' with the existing culture 'Low Saxon'.

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Slower movement speed for everything, and some other impacts.

Forests can block Fog of War completely, while Wood can only block visibility from the sea.
Does the AI "bypass" the fog of war ? Like, do they always know where you are regardless, and act accordingly ?
 
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it looks like the map will be INSANELY big.
would it be possible to add an option, or at least make it moddable, to make the time go by slower? for example, in VIC3 it takes 4 game ticks for a day to go by, while in vic2 each tick was a day. that way the game would go a lot slower. and with a slower game you could focus a lot more on commanding units in a war, for example
 
It looks absolutely awesome and I love how the West-Frisian part of North-Holland is recognised. However I want to point out a few things seeing I'm Dutch myself:

1. Its 's-Hertogenbosch not Hertogenbosch, informally its called Den Bosch.
2. You use the informal name for Den Haag, but use the full one for 's-Hertogenbosch. This I do not understand. Formally its 's-Gravenhage.

You see both names come from Des Gravens Hagen (The Hague of the Count of Holland) and Des Hertogen Bosch (The Duke of Brabans's Forest) which was then made shorter to Den Haag and Den Bosch. But the official names are still 's-Hertogenbosch and 's-Gravenhave. I would recommand using one style for this.

Also I do not understand the usage of the French name for Dunkirk and Ypres. Its in possession of Flanders, which is a Dutch speaking nation. We Dutch all it Duinkerke and Ieper. Ieper is a Flemish city today. Same goes for Cassel (French) which is Kassel (Dutch). Though I hope these names can be changed with cultures and are dynamic.
 
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I have another quiestion, because when I see lowlands I think: economy!
Johan, will loan system produce money from the air or it will be taken from some estates, other countries, or organizations like private bankers ( Jews, Medici, Fuggers, we see you!)? Other countries I mean def diff than we have in eu4, maybe something like "loan market" where you offer some gold and someone can borrow it. Same system should be for mercenariex alongside private one, Swiss eg. offering some troops on "mercenary market" and Milan hire them, Cantons make money, Sforza
make his lovely duchy, everybody happy except Parma cheese makers.

This would lead to many consequences: murders of creditors were often ordered, Jews were expelled, and the debt to the townspeople increased their political aspirations/demands.

Also, will bribery be possible? This was often used, e.g. bribery, that an ally would be betrayed, or someone would be encouraged to attack someone, etc.? This is good material for diplomacy expand DLC, you cant do all stuff at once in base game, it would take too much time to make actual game, so loans first maybe :p