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Tinto Maps #1 - 10th of May 2024 - Low Countries

Hello everybody, and welcome to the first post of Tinto Maps! This is a new weekly series that we will be running about the top-secret game Project Caesar.

Let me introduce myself before I continue, as some of you may get to know me from the development of the latest EUIV DLCs, but I might not be as well-known to everyone as Johan. I’m Pavía, the Content Design Lead at Paradox Tinto, which I joined in 2021. Before becoming a videogame developer, my background was as a Historian, which led me to work on a PhD. in Medieval History (fool me!), which I finished in 2020. Besides that, I’ve spent several thousands of hours of my life playing Paradox GSGs since I discovered and started playing Europa Universalis 20 years ago, in 2004.

What this new series will be about is quite straightforward: each week I will be sharing with you maps of a new different region, so you have an outlook of them and we are able to receive early feedback (because as you may already know from Johan’s Tinto Talks, there is still a lot of WIP stuff ongoing).

About this feedback, we’d like you to take into account a couple of things. The first is that we’ve worked really hard to gather the best sources of information available to craft the best possible map; we used GIS tools with several layers of historical map sources from academic works, geographical data, administrative data, etc., to help us ensure the desired quality. So we would appreciate getting specific suggestions backed by these types of sources, as others (let’s say, a Wikipedia map or YouTube video with no references) may not be reliable enough. The second thing to comment on is that sometimes a certain decision we made was an interpretation over an unclear source, while sometimes we have just plainly made some errors when crafting the map (which on a 30,000 location map is a normal thing, I guess). I’ll let you know when any of these happen, and I’m also going to ask for your understanding when an error or bug is found and confirmed as such.

With those forewords said, let’s start with today’s region: the Low Countries! This is what the political map looks like:

Countries.png

The regional situation in 1337. The counties of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeeland are ruled by William of Avesnes, who is married to Joanna, daughter of Duke John III of Brabant. Another John, the Duke of Luxembourg, might be the strongest power, as he is also the King of Bohemia. The County of Flanders is the wealthiest country in the region, controlling such important cities as Brugge and Ghent. Up in the north, we have other interesting countries, such as the Bishopric of Utrecht or the Republic of Frisia (you might notice that we're using a dynamic custom country name for them, 'Frisian Freedom').

And here we have the locations:

Locations.png

We had a fun bug for some time - Antwerpen didn’t have any pixels connected to the sea, which we found because we couldn’t build any type of port building there. There’s a happy ending, as the bug has already been corrected, and Antwerpen can finally have a proper port!

Provinces:

Provinces.jpg


Terrain (Climate, Topography, and Vegetation):

Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

We are aware that the Netherlands looked differently in the 14th century, as several land reclamations took place during the Late Medieval and Early Modern periods, but we are using a 20th-century version of the map for the sake of consistency. Most of the regions throughout the world would look quite different from nowadays, and documenting those changes (especially the coastline shapes) would be a non-trivial problem to resolve. As a side note, we already removed Flevoland from it, and have already identified some other modern ones that slipped through and we'll eventually remove them, as well.

Cultures:

Cultures.png

The stripes mean that there are pops of different culture inhabiting in those location. Also, the German and French cultures are WIP, we’ll show you a proper version on later Tinto Maps.

Religions:

Religions.png

Not many religions here yet, although there will be interesting religious stuff happening eventually…

Raw Goods:

Goods.png

Goods get regularly swapped around here and there to have a balance between geographical and historical accuracy, and gameplay purposes. So take this as the far-from-final current version of them.

And an additional map for this week:

Markets.png

We reinstated a Low Countries market centered on Antwerpen, after doing some balance tweaks that made it more viable.

And these are the maps for today! I hope that you have a nice weekend, and next Friday, we will travel down south, to Iberia!
 

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I know its technically not part of the region that is being showcased today but can i PLEASE know what that province in southern Hesse around Mainz and Nassau is called? I'm currently all out of Ideas how that name is supposed to continue after "Königsson-".
Königgsondergau, quite anachronistic.
 
Is there a map (and would it be possible to share it with us) that shows which locations are rural, towns, and which are Cities?

On a related note, how do you deal with large urban areas that developed during the game period, will this just be represented as a grouping of city locations?
 
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3 questions:
Are there cultural groups again?
Do the Dutch cultures belong to the German cultural group in 1337?
Is there a possibility that they could found a new Dutch cultural group in an independent Netherlands?
 
Keep the cultures like this! Recognizing that Flanders is really wealthy at this period is what I am very happy for, being Flemish myself. Our little region at this time was very important indeed. Keep the Flemish and Dutch cultures separate! I know you wont go 100% historical and too in depth with the game, but keep the Flemish primitives in mind! It's basically a whole other branch of the renaissance and had a lot of impact on the region/influx of trade/wealth. Looks amazing !
 
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We had 3 options for the cultures:
1. Just go with Dutch, based on the language.
2. Portray the 4 regional variants/dialects of Middle Dutch (Flemish, Brabantic, Hollandic, Limburgic), plus Dutch Low Saxon.
3. Opting for an intermediate level, grouping Flemish, Brabantic, and Limburgic under Flemish, and Hollandic and Dutch Low Saxon groups under Dutch (as they also had a really close relationship). This is the one we decided to go to, for the moment.

We also discussed internally Overijssel and the Dutch Low Saxon region; as we have to review a bit the German cultures, it may change depending on that. And, in any case, we make this new series precisely to gather feedback, so we'll be reading opinions on this topic in the next few days. :)
I think it would be cool if the cultures were more detailed like in the option 2 and overtime merged, for example into option 3 if some centralized state authority of that culture has oversight over those provinces
 
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Keep in mind that while Brugge was also one of the biggest trade monsters, the population also was. Brugge was one of the most populous areas in EUROPE around this time OR at least starting to climb, same with Gent. Population should be higher than Milan/Venice but still well under Paris, but still the 2nd most populous area at the start.
 
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I think it would be better to split up the trade nodes in the region, as one big region could cause massive inbalances if real world development levels are respected. Also, it would make more sense to have the trade node be controlled by the city of Bruges first and then add an event like the silting of the Zwin river to transfer the trade capital to Antwerp.
As someone who lives near Bruges and being a history freak, definitely a good idea !
 
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I don't think you'd need an event for that. Since there's no guarantee that they'd be owned by the same person, if Antwerp is getting a bunch of economic development the owner can just... start a trade node there and outcompete the trade node in Bruges until the owner closes it down due to it no longer being economically feasible to run.

Could use an event to encourage the creation of a trade node in Antwerp, but I think if you play your cards right the idea of "opening up a competing trade node to outcompete your rivals until they close down the one in their territory and accept your control of trade" is already a coherent mechanic with what we've been presented.
 
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Anyway, I do think that marshes are kind of tricky to represent, because once they are cultivated, they are very fertile (as opposed to the mentioned geest), but before dikes and the likes are built, land use is pretty limited. Some parts of the North Sea marshes were already cultivated at the start of the game (like Dithmarschen, I believe), others were not.
Yeah, change on the map is tricky (e.g. it'd be cool if the devs pull changeable vegetation off, but I'm definitely not counting on it). That's why I'm fine with having unchangable features (topography, coastlines etc) depicted by what they looked like for most of the PC timespan. I also understand why they went with 20th century coastlines, though I'm hoping those will be tweaked in places for a more interesting and historical look.

Also, there was a way to create aritifical soil on top of geest, called Plaggen soil. I don't think it was present in East Friesland, but south of it in the Emsland and in the Netherlands, but it probably wasn't significant enough to be represented on the map.
I assume there is a mechanic for increasing agricultural productivity in a location, I'm hoping regionally specific methods of soil improvement get used for flavor.
 
Something I really badly want the game to represent somehow is soil quality, which as you say has had a great and wide-ranging historical impact on the comparative development of various regions. It's probably too late to add a fourth category to the topography/vegetation/climate system though. But I hope that something can be done.

In EU4 this is kinda included with development, I think. For Project Caesar, I could see it being represented in locations by higher/lower production of agricultural raw materials and some flavor text.

In general, I'm fine with reducing things to flavor that are hard to represent mechanically.
 
In EU4 this is kinda included with development, I think. For Project Caesar, I could see it being represented in locations by higher/lower production of agricultural raw materials and some flavor text.

In general, I'm fine with reducing things to flavor that are hard to represent mechanically.
Well, we do have the distinction between farmland and grassland, which I assume is based on a location having good soil for growing crops vs. just being normal cultivated land. And farmland will increase food production for sure.

I think I'd rather have soil quality as a separate value and have vegetation on top of that, which can be changed in the game. And marsh as part of vegetation, so you could change marsh to cultivated land, you could switch cultivated land to woods by reducing output or switch woods to cultivated land by clearing forests.

But I don't think we're getting any changes to this system now.
 
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You guys probably working on this right now but I want to comment on name placement. I think it's okay to leave out names of smaller countries while zoomed out (implying that they should become visible once zoomed in). It would make the maps less visually cluttered. In the first map, I can't even see the shape of the country because of the name placement.
 
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I think if you can't change the terrain type (something I think would be cool but niche) I think instead you could have events or mission rewards that completely remove production debuffs for marshland provinces. Honestly I think that would be more in line anyway.
 
Shouldn't Köln have a bigger population than 22,000?
According to this: https://ssh.datastations.nl/dataset.xhtml?persistentId=doi:10.17026/dans-xzy-u62q
Köln is estimated to have a population of about 44,000 in 1300.
The source actually has estimates of population for a huge amount of European cities in 1300 (and other years). So could be of help in other cases if you are missing some good estimates.
The sheet's numbers are sometimes a bit higher than what I've seen in German sources, but yes, Köln had a population of ~40000 from the 13th century and stayed around that number for basically the whole game.
Also we know that that number was in an area of 401ha. Modern Köln is 40517ha which looks like it's slightly smaller than the location in the map shown.

So the location would have had additional population living outside the city as well. This is going to be a major problem if you use this sheet as reference, since there basically are no locations that are only limited to the historical area of the city.
 
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We had 3 options for the cultures:
1. Just go with Dutch, based on the language.
2. Portray the 4 regional variants/dialects of Middle Dutch (Flemish, Brabantic, Hollandic, Limburgic), plus Dutch Low Saxon.
3. Opting for an intermediate level, grouping Flemish, Brabantic, and Limburgic under Flemish, and Hollandic and Dutch Low Saxon groups under Dutch (as they also had a really close relationship). This is the one we decided to go to, for the moment.

We also discussed internally Overijssel and the Dutch Low Saxon region; as we have to review a bit the German cultures, it may change depending on that. And, in any case, we make this new series precisely to gather feedback, so we'll be reading opinions on this topic in the next few days. :)
Brabantic and Limburgic are distinct enough to warrant their own inclusion I’d say. Since the map is so granular in provinces, it makes sense to have the same granularity in terms of culture. Now it seems that Flanders and the Netherlands were homogeneous, while there were strong regional identities (especially after the Northern provinces adopted Calvinism) that became more unified (read: suppressed by Hollandic) later by patriotism and nationalism.

It would promote regionalism, instead of a united Netherlands as a logical outcome, as that really only happened as a result of a common plight against the Habsburgs and their oppression of the Protestants.
 
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