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Tinto Maps #1 - 10th of May 2024 - Low Countries

Hello everybody, and welcome to the first post of Tinto Maps! This is a new weekly series that we will be running about the top-secret game Project Caesar.

Let me introduce myself before I continue, as some of you may get to know me from the development of the latest EUIV DLCs, but I might not be as well-known to everyone as Johan. I’m Pavía, the Content Design Lead at Paradox Tinto, which I joined in 2021. Before becoming a videogame developer, my background was as a Historian, which led me to work on a PhD. in Medieval History (fool me!), which I finished in 2020. Besides that, I’ve spent several thousands of hours of my life playing Paradox GSGs since I discovered and started playing Europa Universalis 20 years ago, in 2004.

What this new series will be about is quite straightforward: each week I will be sharing with you maps of a new different region, so you have an outlook of them and we are able to receive early feedback (because as you may already know from Johan’s Tinto Talks, there is still a lot of WIP stuff ongoing).

About this feedback, we’d like you to take into account a couple of things. The first is that we’ve worked really hard to gather the best sources of information available to craft the best possible map; we used GIS tools with several layers of historical map sources from academic works, geographical data, administrative data, etc., to help us ensure the desired quality. So we would appreciate getting specific suggestions backed by these types of sources, as others (let’s say, a Wikipedia map or YouTube video with no references) may not be reliable enough. The second thing to comment on is that sometimes a certain decision we made was an interpretation over an unclear source, while sometimes we have just plainly made some errors when crafting the map (which on a 30,000 location map is a normal thing, I guess). I’ll let you know when any of these happen, and I’m also going to ask for your understanding when an error or bug is found and confirmed as such.

With those forewords said, let’s start with today’s region: the Low Countries! This is what the political map looks like:

Countries.png

The regional situation in 1337. The counties of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeeland are ruled by William of Avesnes, who is married to Joanna, daughter of Duke John III of Brabant. Another John, the Duke of Luxembourg, might be the strongest power, as he is also the King of Bohemia. The County of Flanders is the wealthiest country in the region, controlling such important cities as Brugge and Ghent. Up in the north, we have other interesting countries, such as the Bishopric of Utrecht or the Republic of Frisia (you might notice that we're using a dynamic custom country name for them, 'Frisian Freedom').

And here we have the locations:

Locations.png

We had a fun bug for some time - Antwerpen didn’t have any pixels connected to the sea, which we found because we couldn’t build any type of port building there. There’s a happy ending, as the bug has already been corrected, and Antwerpen can finally have a proper port!

Provinces:

Provinces.jpg


Terrain (Climate, Topography, and Vegetation):

Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

We are aware that the Netherlands looked differently in the 14th century, as several land reclamations took place during the Late Medieval and Early Modern periods, but we are using a 20th-century version of the map for the sake of consistency. Most of the regions throughout the world would look quite different from nowadays, and documenting those changes (especially the coastline shapes) would be a non-trivial problem to resolve. As a side note, we already removed Flevoland from it, and have already identified some other modern ones that slipped through and we'll eventually remove them, as well.

Cultures:

Cultures.png

The stripes mean that there are pops of different culture inhabiting in those location. Also, the German and French cultures are WIP, we’ll show you a proper version on later Tinto Maps.

Religions:

Religions.png

Not many religions here yet, although there will be interesting religious stuff happening eventually…

Raw Goods:

Goods.png

Goods get regularly swapped around here and there to have a balance between geographical and historical accuracy, and gameplay purposes. So take this as the far-from-final current version of them.

And an additional map for this week:

Markets.png

We reinstated a Low Countries market centered on Antwerpen, after doing some balance tweaks that made it more viable.

And these are the maps for today! I hope that you have a nice weekend, and next Friday, we will travel down south, to Iberia!
 

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Situeringskaart-van-de-Zwinstreek-in-de-middeleeuwen.png

(Map of Zwin Channel of bruges)

Note that Bruges didn't have the main access to the sea, but Damme has... You could make an event where Damme loses its connection to the sea (due to the silting of the zwin channel), in turn changing the trade to Antwerp (maybe even renaming the trade node for extra flavor?) and later to Amsterdam/Rotterdam.
 
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Some feedback to improve visibility in coasts and specially of (small) islands:
  • Invert the colors of the water ---> shallow/lighter at the coast and darker at the deeps, sea basins, etc.
  • Add some border along the coasts. For example, same border as in the political map.
I find it very noticeable in the islands shown in this area, but has to be more impactful in the many islands of the Caribbean, Aegean, Polynesia... etc.

I leave the original and my one example sketch.

Suggested.png
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We had 3 options for the cultures:
1. Just go with Dutch, based on the language.
2. Portray the 4 regional variants/dialects of Middle Dutch (Flemish, Brabantic, Hollandic, Limburgic), plus Dutch Low Saxon.
3. Opting for an intermediate level, grouping Flemish, Brabantic, and Limburgic under Flemish, and Hollandic and Dutch Low Saxon groups under Dutch (as they also had a really close relationship). This is the one we decided to go to, for the moment.

We also discussed internally Overijssel and the Dutch Low Saxon region; as we have to review a bit the German cultures, it may change depending on that. And, in any case, we make this new series precisely to gather feedback, so we'll be reading opinions on this topic in the next few days. :)

Very difficult decisions. Back then the disctinction between cultures weren't as great as they are now, but I do believe that Dutch as a culture is more modern, mainly influenced by the Hollandish culture. Isn't it possible to create a Hollandish and Low Saxon culture group, part of the Low German main group? Which later, depending on the development of the region, emerge as a unified Dutch culture?

In any case, it would make sense if Gelderland, Overijssel and Drenthe would be at least part of Low German, since historically and still traditionally a different language is spoken (Low Saxon) instead of the Low Frankonian Dutch.

Or better yet, Gelderland could be mixed. Holland and Low German. The Apeldoorn area is low-german still, but the Arnhem and I think the Hardewijk region is much more influenced by Holland.

Also, wouldn't it make more sense to rename the Apeldoorn region to Hattem or Wageningen, or simply Veluwe? Apeldoorn was a small village back then, and even on more moderns maps less significant than Wageningen or Hattem (Or even Uddel).

Theres a few 17th century maps of the region from Janssonius which show a few interesting better candidates. I'm unsure if there are older sources available, besides Roman written accounts.
 
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13. Adding in Tiel in the western part of the Betuwe or Nijmegen Quarter would be a good choice as it was still contested between Brabant and Gelre at this time. I believe even that Tiel was part of Brabant at the startdate.

I'm going to second the part about Tiel in particular. The area was indeed contested in 1337 between Brabant and Gelre (these two were fierce regional rivals). In fact, in 1334 a battle was fought outside the city between the two and Gelre then conquered the city. Only in 1339 did Brabant officially trade the city for Heusden [1].

Furthermore I want to make a case for the raw good and the topography of Tiel, or Nijmegen as a whole if it is not split as the location accurately represents the larger region of 'de Betuwe'. Even though the area is not as low as the Holland area (~1-5 meter above sea level, yes that's high in the Netherlands), the terrain can actually be considered very marshy due to it being formed by the Rhine and Meuse delta and thus exclusively being consistent of river clay. Even today it is called 'the river area' as it has many rivers, creeks, canals, crevasses, and kolks. Interestingly, even in WWII part of the reason why Market garden wasn't held further downstream of the river was because the river clay of this area was not suitable for tank operations [no source at hand]. Attached you will find part of the official Dutch soil map and a map that depicts the flow of rivers throughout different centuries in this area [2] which shifted multiple times during the time period after 1337.

As a result of all this inundation and river clay, the soil is extremely fertile and therefore the ideal place for fruit production. Large scale fruit production outside of monastery orchards started in the 14th and 15th centuries along rivers with the center of fruit production being in the Tiel area [3] [4]. It wasn't until the industrial revolution that the area became a global fruit producing powerhouse, nevertheless I think it would be suitable if the raw good of this area would be fruit.

1: <spam filter> (Gelderland historical canon)

2: From the personal collection of C. de Bont (2008) (I also have a full 20MB size image available)

3: <spam filter> (Wageningen University)

4:<spam filter> (Wageningen University)

I would like to post the links here but the spam filter won't allow me :/

I would be honored if my 2 cents can help :)
 

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Isn't Flandre supposed to be a vassal of France ?
Even if they officially might still have been, by this time there was a few decades of low-intensity independence war, which would shortly get subsumed in the 100 year war and the Burgundians.

Unless France gets HRE-style subjects, the abstraction of independence is fine.
And even then: the Flemish location of Aalst was part of the HRE, not France...
 
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I agree, but supposing the bit of German culture map visible, it would probably make those four cultures too small.
O yes, I would say the granularity of the political map should be reflected in cultural and religious map modes all around. I appreciate the ambition of this game, which is exactly why it is important to portray it as accurately as possible.

It can become dangerous to suggest cultures were monoliths and did not become more homogeneous over time. Not that I think Paradox is doing this, they are incredibly communicative and careful about the map and spend great time investigating.
However, people could take the wrong conclusions when they misunderstand generalizations made, and in my opinion that is a responsibility I feel that Paradox should weigh carefully when depicting the time period that will run up to the rise of Nationalism (And also in a time period of varying types of slavery). I hope the assimilation and dispersion of culture and religion will be done thoughtfully.

From what I have seen so far, I feel confident they will do so, but some course correction like depicting smaller/sub- cultures is what I hope they take away from these interactions with us. So yeah what you say is true, but should not be taken as a reason not to do it imo.
 
Do you have an opinion about the culture in Lille/Tournai/Douai? Should those be Picard already, or still "Flemish" (or whatever group that becomes) ?

I would love to answer you unfortunately I dont have the knowledge about this time period.. though I must say I didnt know that at that time France had Tournai.
 
View attachment 1130890

I understand that with the current engine it's not possible to make the land change, but it would be cool (E.g. India's Kutch, China's Yellow River, Also big parts of Flandres). And others have commented already.

View attachment 1130895


But could we at least get a Netherlands that is less modern? Like Zeeland not being connected, or even Noord-Holland being harder to get to. Would really add a strategic dynamic to the area that was sorely missing in EU4. A compromise between an actual Dutch Waterline, and giving any French/Spanish army the opportunity to do as they like.

Agree, in the timespan of EU4 it matters a lot. its the reason during the 80 year war the spanish werent able to reach the hague and rotterdam because there was a huge lake (haarlemmermeer)in the middle of the provence and the spanish army had to siege down Haarlem and Leiden to be able to reach the cities. The lake was there till 1850.

Also the area of Hulst was located on a couple of islands in front of the flemish coast. Its the only reason the Dutch revolt was able to cling on to them, otherwise it would have been Belgium by now.
 
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Some people want to combine Dutch and Flemish, and some people want to split these groups even further. I think for Europe it'd make sense to have 3 culture levels, local, regional, union. And have local groups maybe be part of more than one regional group.
I fully agree. Your suggestion of making local cultures part of multiple regional cultures is a perfect way to portray people living in so called borderlands. It would also show how cultures had multpile influences and that borders were not so strict before the modern age.

For the Low Countries, Low Saxon is where Dutch/Hollandic/Frisian and Saxon cultures mixed into a new, distinct one. That should be depicted imo.

The same argument can be used for any other culture, and would greatly improve how the game depicts what a culture is and why it differs from other cultures in the first place. It is not a black and white matter that is depicted as having rigid borders. It is commendable that they include minority cultures in locations in the game, but they would excel to take it this one step further.

Moreover, this can be a way to show the change in culture and should be a dynamic system.
The game spans centuries. Religion will naturally be a dynamic system. This should be reflected in the cultures as well. I hope they take a lesson from CK3 in this: The diverging and changing cultures made the map so much more alive.
 
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Hopefully, the naming will be more consistent. The naming of modern Dutch provinces in Dutch versus the Belgian regions using English and French naming is a bit odd. As this is early in development (relatively), I can only hope that this gets modified.
 
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wait, you can eat wool? and i only learned of that now?
You have to open it first.
Honestly so excited for this region. It has the potential to be one of the most dynamic. I'm glad you guys are looking into testing Brugge as the main market. It would be so cool to see the main market move from Brugge -> Antwerpen -> Amsterdam as it did in our time. Perhaps even with events giving Brugge a declining trade modifier at some point due to 'slib/verzanden van het Zwin'. Are there events of this sort planned?

Again, I'm so very excited to see how this region will dynamically evolve in my games.
I wonder if this could be done by having "subservient"/minor markets somehow. So Antwerp or Amsterdam could initially help Brugge reach further and strengthen the market, but also potentially take control of said market. Would have to have some mechanics in to prevent you from "chaining" markets, like only provinces within the original market control can attach to the major one.
 
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ther could be more lumber in holand because there would still be more forest because of the resaon that the wood was not jet used for the ships of the voc.
i aslo reganice the prvoinces as the motheren dutch provinces is there for this a reason because it does not seem logical that the frissian utrecht border follows the current border perfectly.
 
Will the map show trade in any way? In the sense that there will be caravans between locations, or ships at sea? Something like the solution that is in Medieval 2 Total War.
 
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Hi folks! Just before I continue answering comments, I wanted you to know:

1. We've already been taking notes on most of the feedback, and sometimes I'll just add a Helpful reaction.
2. For Each Tinto Maps we'll be creating a couple of Jira tickets, so we will make sure that your feedback is properly implemented:

Pavía created issue - Tinto Maps Map Feedback: #1 Low Countries
Pavía created issue - Tinto Maps Setup Feedback: #1 Low Countries
 
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The low countries map looks great!

However I do have some suggestions on tags and provinces I'd like to see added:
1. County of Zutphen
The county of Zutphen is a personal union of Gueldres in the eastern provinces of Zutphen and Doetinchem. It is in a similar situation to Zeeland at the startdate with the only major differences being that Zutphen is twice as big in provinces and Zeeland is included in this map whilst Zutphen isn't.
2. Groningen
As early as 1227 there was a conflict between Utrecht and Groningen on the topic of who controlled Groningen. The result of this debacle differed wildly from time to time, with Utrecht occasionally reconquering the city and Groningen regaining independence afterwards. Anyways, in neither cases it is a part of Frisia, as seen in this map. I'd argue a better way to represent them would be to cut the access of the province of Groningen to the sea and to add a Groningen tag, either as vassal of, independent or directly owned by Utrecht.
3. Lordship of Mechelen
Like Groningen, Mechelen was a small citystate located in its namesake province. Also like Groningen, it is in a confusing state of whether it is Flemish or independent. See in 1333 Liege gave the city to the county of Flanders, but the Flemish did not manage to fully assert their control there. In either case, in the screenshots it is owned by Brabant, which it shouldnt be.

Those were my few nitpicks with the map, either way, it looks great currently! Cannot wait to see more of the globe.
The County of Zutphen has already been made a Personal Union of Gelre. We'll take a look on what's possible to do with the other issues that you mention.
 
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Just some Feedback that might of course get buried: Both Düren and Hunsrück are misspelled in here, being written with a mere "u" instead of the german "ü". I'm not sure if this is intentional or not (keeping with english spelling), but since you already have Königssondergau with an "ö" I assume it might be an oversight.
Misspelling (as the English Wikipedia version looks to be with "ü"). Funnily enough, made by a fellow German (probably an overcorrection). Not only not buried, but already fixed.
 
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Please consider using the Paleographical maps published by the Dutch Cultural Heritage Agency's archaeology programme. I've attached their 1500 AD map as example and my own work on the topic depicting polders in the Northern Netherlands.

Key suggestions would be redoing Zeeland entirely, adding the islands of Urk and Schokland, and expanding the Lauwerszee somewhat.

If you end up using the 1500 AD map please note that the Biesbosch area was not flooded until 1421 and should hence probably remain land at the start date.

[I wanted to link the mentioned maps but it keeps marking my post as spam so instead just google "Paleogeografische kaarten rijksdienst". They have GIS files too]
 

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