Tinto Maps #1 - 10th of May 2024 - Low Countries

[Boosnake]

What would it be used for? Just fuel?
Bog iron wasn't a thing anymore in the Netherlands by that time.

Pretty much. Both domestically and industrially. And maybe as an ineffective fertiliser too if fertilisers are modelled.

Peat wouldn't be a "good" resource. Even contemporaries pointed out that it was remarkable that the Low Countries were so rich when all they possessed was peat and fish. Timber would be much more useful, fulfilling all of peat's uses and more.

 

[Ollfardh]

Maybe there should be a more “standard” resource pack that involves a bit of wood, a bit of stone, some grains and some livestock for provinces that don’t have one real specialisation? That way there will also be an absolute minimum of basic resources.

 

[Mef]

Maybe there should be a more “standard” resource pack that involves a bit of wood, a bit of stone, some grains and some livestock for provinces that don’t have one real specialisation? That way there will also be an absolute minimum of basic resources.

There is already some base production in markets:

So what is ‘Base Production’? Some goods like clay, lumber, sand and stone are produced in every market, without the need for specific RGO’s

And food is essentially the 'base production' in every location, since all peasants that aren't otherwise employed work on food production.

 

[Zerodv]

There is already some base production in markets:

And food is essentially the 'base production' in every location, since all peasants that aren't otherwise employed work on food production.

What do grain provinces do that is special?

 

[Mef]

What do grain provinces do that is special?

We don't have any details on how food related raw materials work, but I would guess they provide additional food that is more efficient than base food production. Or maybe they just produce the same amount of food as base production, but also produce the good. The good can be traded and used as raw materials e.g. turning grain into beer.

From the screenshots we have seen, it looks like the current numbers are 0.001 food produced per peasant in food production and 0.001 food consumed per person, so base food production is only enough to feed the peasants work in it themselves (modifiers will increase this). This, presumably, is where food related goods can help out.

 

[Greifental]

I love the first picture (countries map). The Cologne exclaves between the counts of Mark and Arnsberg are very accurate to history and hadn't been shown in a Paradox game this perfectly before.

 

[Floris de wagt]

I have an idea about how to better portrait the distinction between swamps/marshes and cultivated wetland.

I think this could be best achieved by splitting marshes into 2. Move the actual marsh to the vegetation mapmode and replace marsh on the topography mapmode with wetlands. This would make it more in line with the other topography categories and it could be used for river areas such as Nijmegen as well. With this change you can also accurately portray swamps and marshlands like the Bourtangeveen mentioned in my previous post, but also the more cultivated wetlands in the other parts of the Netherlands. Now give the actual marsh vegetation some serious downside for development and armies and the wetlands some minor debuffs and increased fort defense. You could portray the draining of marshes and the cultivation of land by replacing the vegetation from marsh to grassland and farms. In my opinion this is a better way of simulating this change then changing the current topography layer from marsh to grassland as others have suggested as that will just make the Netherlands the same as other flatlands which wouldn't be the case since much of it would still be very wet and marshy.

I have attached a proof of concept map below

Also if you adding something like alum you should definitely add turf as well. It was a very important fuel source for the low countries. The big cities in the low countries needed a lot of fuel for their industries and turf was THE fuel source until coal became king. Its use and harvesting has changed the landscape of the Netherlands (and parts of Flanders) throughout the ages. I believe it was also harvested in parts of England, Ireland and around the Baltic Sea as well. Could be a fun flavor that when your industries expand you get the option to start harvesting turf at the cost of increased flooding change or something like that.

 

[Sulphurologist]

Very detailed feedback, we'll definitely take into account, thanks!

Hey, geologist and geoarcheologist from Flanders here, here's my two pennies worth on expanding and correcting some minor things for the Flanders/Wallonia region based on Mefs post (full reasoning below):

Bruges - Dyes
Hulst - Salt, later dyes (1550-1600's)
Ghent - Wool
Oudenaarde - any crop
Aalst - Stone
Ypres - Clay
Kortrijk - Fiber crops
Tournai - Stone
Mons - Stone
Liege - Marble, later maybe alum (1550-1600's)

- Dye in the Low Countries was predominantly produced from Madder, a crop grown in the coastal polders of Bruges, Zeeland and South-holland. The earliest mention I could find was from the 1300 onwards beginning in the Bruges region, and later in the 14th century in the rest of the polder region.
In Zeeland Peat excavation remained the most prominent product until the late 1500s, but eventually collapsed due to drowning of the landscape that was caused by this practice.

- Ghent started their cloth production business because they also produced wool. Eventually they of course required a lot more from trade later on. The local landscpe is determined by sandy drylands and wetlands prone to flooding from the Scheldt-Lys confluence, which were not optimal for other forms of agriculture. I couldn't find any mentions of significant dye production.

- Aalst/Oudenaarde. The white sandstones of the Lede and Brussels Formation are found between Oudenaarde and Brussels. Outcrops are frequent, but qualitive stone layers are thin, which only allowed for small, but numerous quarries. Nevertheless, many major buildings is Bruges, Ghent, Brussels, Malines, Antwerp,... were built with this rock, often in combination with Tounaisian Limestone (see below) or Belgian Blue (also, see below). As the topsoil of this region is fertile loam, I'd suggest 1 province being stone (imo Aalst fits best) and the other being used for agriculture (Oudenaarde).

- The region of Ypres is known for their clay deposits, just like Kortrijk. Ironically, the clay deposits of Kortrijk are part of the geological Ypres Group, and are also easily quarried in the Ypres region. A lot of brick production occurred in the Ypres region, more so than in Kortrijk, so it makes the most sense here.

- Kortrijk also had brick production, but the city and the region around it was more known for their flax cultivation. The knowledge of textile manufacturing from flax also paved the way for future cloth production.

- Tournai is regionally famous for their limestone deposits, earliest quarrying is known from the Roman era and never really stopped. The main reason os because of the proximity to the Lys river which allowed for easy transport. Almost all major buildings and cathedrals from the late medieval era / early modern era in the entire Flanders region were built entirely (medieval period) or partially (early modern period) with this stone. It is still being quarried to this day.

- Mons. Due to popularity of the stone type in Tournai, they eventually started quarrying similar deposits in Hainaut, now well known as 'Belgian blue'. It became so widespread it outcompeted the Tournai quarries by the late 1500s, and is still being heavily quarried to this day. Although some late medieval sculptures were made in this stone (great collection in the Fine arts museum of Lille), it was only rarely considered a 'marble' for luxurious art.

- 'Marble' from Belgium are luxurious, colorful and ornate limestones that were used in prestigious courts and palaces all over Europe, including the court of Charlemagne and the Vatican. While alum from Liege was regionally important, the marbles were more significant internationally. For example, Noir de Mazy and Noir de Golzinne were extremely coveted for their pure black color. Almost all luxury limestones of Belgium are quarried in the Liege province.

edit: changed my previous explanation on marble in Belgium, where I made it look like a technicality of a geological term actually matters in the scope of the in-game purpose, while it doens't.

 

[Sulphurologist]

What would it be used for? Just fuel?
Bog iron wasn't a thing anymore in the Netherlands by that time.

I'm very much in favor for peat as a regional trade good.

Coastal Peat was used for salt extraction and fuel. For Flanders it was a huge product in Bruges, Zeeland, Zeeuws Flanders and Antwerp untill well into the late 1500s, same is true for the Netherlands and e.g. Norfolk and Suffolk in England. Peat burning was eventually replaced by coal, but it was used in households untill well into the 1700s.
While it is abstracted by salt in the zeeland provinces, it undersells the value of coastal peat imo.

The extensive urbanisation of the low countries was made possible due to the burning of peat for both industry and heating.

Bog iron peat is present in the Campine area of Flanders, which was definitely used locally, but not worth noting on a regional scale or trade good imo.

 

[Mef]

- Marble in Belgium are not considered 'true marbles', but rather ornate limestones that have been used in courts and palaces worldwide, including the Vatican. While alum from Liege was regionally important, the marbles were more significant internationally. For example, Noir de Mazy and Noir de Golzinne were extremely coveted for being pure black. Almost all luxury limestones of Belgium are quarried in the Liege province.

Great post, but would marble really be more important for Liège than coal? I read a (German) paper regarding early use of coal which was a lot more than just 'coal digging' as it's often called and Liège was mentioned as the center of European coal production between the 13th and 15th century. Sources suggest that mining reached a depth of 120m in 1350 and 200m in 1420. When coal was used for salt evaporation in the 16th century in Germany, it was imported from Liège.

So if alum isn't present until later, which I 100% agree with, shouldn't coal be the raw material of choice here, considering that limestone isn't exactly marble? And alum was supposedly important internationally as well, as it was exported to France and England.

 

[Mef]

I'm very much in favor for peat as a regional trade good.

Coastal Peat was used for salt extraction and fuel.

I think one of the complications here is that raw material production doesn't use any input goods in Project Caesar. So you don't need fuel to produce salt. You don't need fuel to produce iron. You don't need fuel to produce certain types of limestone (apparently quicklime is the English word). All were of course important fuel consumers of the time period. It looks like you do need fuel to produce glass and tar, but not sure if that's possible with peat.

 

[Sulphurologist]

I think one of the complications here is that raw material production doesn't use any input goods in Project Caesar. So you don't need fuel to produce salt. You don't need fuel to produce iron. You don't need fuel to produce certain types of limestone (apparently quicklime is the English word). All were of course important fuel consumers of the time period. It looks like you do need fuel to produce glass and tar, but not sure if that's possible with peat.

I agree, and basically think the discussion boils down to what you mention here:
"Is there a concept of fuel in the pre-industrial game?"

If yes: I think peat should be important
If no: then no need for peat (and then also no need for coal in Liège in 1350s ;p)

Edit: spelling

 

[Mef]

I agree, and basicallyI think the discussion boils down to what you mention here:
"Is there a concept of fuel in the pre-industrial game?"

If yes: I think peat should be important
If no: then no need for peat (and then also no need for coal in Liège in 1350s ;p)

That is true, but on a global scale, coal is certainly much more important than peat. After all, we're not entirely pre-industrial since the game may end up using 1836 as its end date. Steam engines can use peat, but puddling does not. Of course, iron production doesn't require input goods anyway so that industrial breakthrough can't really be represented...

So I think we're only left with glass, tar and potentially metalworks as known goods which actually require fuel and those would be able to use lumber, coal or peat interchangeably.
I can see a scenario where lumber(charcoal) and coal are represented as fuel, but peat is not, since it's only regionally important.

Oh and just to be clear: I don't want to argue against the inclusion of peat, I usually tend towards having more goods and am considering some modding ideas to make the economic and goods simulation a bit more in-depth, but I also understand that you can't include everything, so I can see how peat may not make the cut.

 

[Pbhuh]

As a follow up on the post about the Northern Low Countries, I have decided to try and tackle the German Border Region as well.

I've tried to overlay different maps found from various places (mostly wikipedia ) and tried to figure out why the Project Caesar map bothered me so much.


Locations with Colors showing the States

The biggest problem I am having is that Cologne, Jülich and Berg are far too fragmented and Kleves is far too small.

1. & 9 Munster has an overabundance of Locations. The Bishopric was historically divided into two parts. The Hochstift or Upper Bishopric and Niederstift Lower Bishopric.
Meppen and later Cloppenburg were part of this Niederstift.
9. Cloppen should be owned by Tecklenburg until 1400 or 1403, when it was acquired by Münster. Meppen was already part of the Bishopric since 1252.
I would replace Bersenbrück with Fürstenau, which seemed to have been an Post or Amt of the Bishopric of Osnabrück, which was formed around 1357. Bersenbrück doesn't become an administrative area until the Kingdom of Hannover in 1817.
With this in mind, perhaps one or two locations could be scrapped for Münster. Having Warenburg, Beckum, Coesfeld, Ahaus, Borken and Münster seems a bit much. Reducing Ahaus, Borken and Coesfeld to just 2 locations, Ahaus could probably stay as it had a streak of independence and wasn't seemingly acquired till 1406 and Coesfeld can cover borken as well and merging Warendorf and Beckum seems appropriate. Warendorf seems to have been the larger of the two.

8. Tecklenburg being split into Bentheim has been mentioned numerous times in this thread already. But just putting it here as well for recordkeeping.

2. Cleves is far too small. Having only 1 location is criminal. I would replace Rees with Wesel or Emmerich, two towns of far more importance and part of the county of Cleves. I would go for Wesel as it was already part of Cleves at this time, while Emmerich wasn't acquired till 1371 and Rees wasn't until 1392. Wesel also became part of the hanseatic league in ther 15th century. And was an entrepot.

3. & 7. Essen can be removed from the Rhine River. While every province needs a minimum size, Dortmund is rather large and can be cut into a little and with the removal of some of Münster's locations we can include an important town on the Rhine:
Duisburg, another location for Cleves.

Duisburg was an independant Imperial City until 1290 when it was given to Cleves. Then in 1314 given to Berg and returned in 1392. It became a hanseatic city as well.

4. Having Jülich seperated into enclaves is a bit weird when most of its territory was connected. Meanwhile Cologne isn't connected to Moers. Just giving the area connected to the rhine from Gladbach to Cologne or Moers would be better. Unless there is a need for Jülich to connect to the rhine.

A Location that could benefit Jülich would be the city and capital of Jülich. It's a bit weird only seeing other cities.

5. Roermond isn't there and messes up the Dutch-German border. Roermond is instead located in the region of the county of Horne. Perhaps this location could be split up to allow for Roermond to actually be in the Dutch borders.

6. I think it would be best if Berg remained on the right bank of the Rhine and Cologne on the Left part.
So making the city of Cologne's Leftbank also not exceed too far past it. Instead this can be given to the location of Siegburg and maybe Remscheid. Alternatively Deutz could be added here. Altough i wouldn't as it would again cause the issue of Cologne extending too far over to the leftbank.
Siegburg was owned by a local abbey. It makes sense to give it to Cologne, however it would become part of Berg in 1407.

7 (again, woops). Bonn on the Left bank of the Rhine belonged to Cologne. Only the Rightbank belonged to Berg. Given that most of the location is on the leftbank. Keep it with Cologne, as it would become the Seat of the Bishop later on.
Also. Cologne could already be given independence as it defacto already was since the battle of woeringen.

I will probably repost this once we get to a german map thread.

EDIT:
Province Names wise, there could also be some major improvements.


The Gau names ought to go, it's the early modern period. The names should corrospond with names that were used during this era or from after.
1. Replace it with Münster, it was owned by them during the whole period
2. Cleves is a much better name for a province in this area. Would encompass Cleves, Rees(replaced with Wesel) and either Duisburg(new) or Essen.
3. 4. & 5. Limburg is a mess at the moment. It would be better to either go with the name Limburg for the modern province, including all of 4. So Cuijk, Venlo, Horne and Maastricht or alternatively, one could go for an Opper-Gelre (Upper Guelders) province made out of 3. with again, Cuijk, Venlo, Horne and Geldern. This would then allow for a Historical Limburg province in the south, encompassing Limburg and the region of Overmaas (Maastricht). See 5.
6. Emsland is better or Meppen.
7. Osnabrück works fine.
8. Oldenburg is fine.
9. There should be a province of Mark here. It should include: Hamm, Dortmund, Altena and Gummersbach. Soest could be included.
10. A province of Berg would be good here. Including Essen (if Duisburg exists), Düsseldorf, Remscheid and Siegburg.
11. The Kölngau or Cologne province should be here instead. Including Neuss, Köln, Bonn and maybe Ahrweiler.
12. Either Aachen or in my opinion Jülich would be better. Given the region is basically the entire Duchy of Jülich, call it that. Including: Aachen, Mönchengladbach, Düren, Bergheim and Schleiden. Roermond should be removed or placed somewhere else as mentioned before.
13. Ardennen are in Belgium, this area is called Eifel in Germany. So Call it either Eifel or split it between Bliesgau (Trier) or Jülich.
14. In this corner we can replace it with Arnsberg, including Arnsberg, Soest, Mesched(..?) or Westfalen (Westphalia) after the duchy that was here.

While Zuid-Holland and North-Holland wouldn't be a terrible province name, perhaps splitting off Zeeland, Holland and West-Friesland is an option, as these were the historical seperations of the county of Holland. And of course Utrecht never was part of this.

A. Zeeland is located here, however doing this would give Zeeland only 1 location. Hulst could be added to add to 2. It is however a bit small. A second location here could help. Goes perhaps?
B. West Friesland, again only 1 location: Hoorn. The West Frisian islands of Texel, Vlieland and Terschelling can be split off into a Texel location or maybe a Huisduinen/Den Helder location. Alkmaar can remain with it as well. In the States of Holland and Westfriesland all cities above the IJ were seen as the Noorderkwartier. An alternative name for this area.
C. This is the heartland of Holland. Probably too large.
D. Utrecht, currently only 1 location, but adding a second would help. If 2 isn't enough, an option could be made to include Nijmegen (Tiel would help a lot as a new location as well).
E. Lastly, Given that Drenthe was never given official province status during the Republic, perhaps it could be merged into an Oversticth province.
F. Just some renames here could help. Kemptenland is a bad name, replace it with Antwerpen. This was a Historical Margriavate.
North Brabant is a bad name when it does not include all of it. Toxandrië could work, alternatively just go with 's Hertogenbosch, this was a historical division of the duchy of Brabant.
West-Limburg for this time period is bad, go with Loon instead as that was the name for more than 600 years.

 

[Sulphurologist]

That is true, but on a global scale, coal is certainly much more important than peat. After all, we're not entirely pre-industrial since the game may end up using 1836 as its end date. Steam engines can use peat, but puddling does not. Of course, iron production doesn't require input goods anyway so that industrial breakthrough can't really be represented...

So I think we're only left with glass, tar and potentially metalworks as known goods which actually require fuel and those would be able to use lumber, coal or peat interchangeably.
I can see a scenario where lumber(charcoal) and coal are represented as fuel, but peat is not, since it's only regionally important.

Oh and just to be clear: I don't want to argue against the inclusion of peat, I usually tend towards having more goods and am considering some modding ideas to make the economic and goods simulation a bit more in-depth, but I also understand that you can't include everything, so I can see how peat may not make the cut.

I think lumber is going to be a building material in any case (otherwise it would be called timber, I think).

However: if lumber will fuel industries: peat is very important too, as NW-European industry was not fueled on wood products alone. Take a look at where peat is found globally... and you will see why it 'feels' as a local resource in European history.

Thanks for your interesting facts btw, loved reading up on medieval coal mining in Liège.

 

[Kong Rødskæg]

@Pavía Will you not be sharing the terrain map with us? I'm one of those minority players who always plays on terrain and I really hope the terrain in this game will be beautiful!!..

 

[Melhk54321]

Could you make the shapes of the boundaries of locations and provinces follow the shape of major rivers like the Rhine and Danube?

oh god yes please, all I want is my borders to be pretty.

 

[Melhk54321]

I've been looking at the map a bit and realized that while the locations seem to be following the rhine (which i aboslutely love) some seem to go ever so slightly over the river, like berg and utrecht, and autistic people like myself would defenitely appreciate it if they followed the big rivers exactly

 

[Spartakus]

I've been looking at the map a bit and realized that while the locations seem to be following the rhine (which i aboslutely love) some seem to go ever so slightly over the river, like berg and utrecht, and autistic people like myself would defenitely appreciate it if they followed the big rivers exactly

I don't know what's going on with Utrecht, but I bet Berg is intentional. That's the part of Bonn right of the Rhine and it's an important bridgehead.

 

[klaasvink]

Maybe there should be a more “standard” resource pack that involves a bit of wood, a bit of stone, some grains and some livestock for provinces that don’t have one real specialisation? That way there will also be an absolute minimum of basic resources.

but in the mountains there would not be enough food that why it does not exist likely