• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Maps #1 - 10th of May 2024 - Low Countries

Hello everybody, and welcome to the first post of Tinto Maps! This is a new weekly series that we will be running about the top-secret game Project Caesar.

Let me introduce myself before I continue, as some of you may get to know me from the development of the latest EUIV DLCs, but I might not be as well-known to everyone as Johan. I’m Pavía, the Content Design Lead at Paradox Tinto, which I joined in 2021. Before becoming a videogame developer, my background was as a Historian, which led me to work on a PhD. in Medieval History (fool me!), which I finished in 2020. Besides that, I’ve spent several thousands of hours of my life playing Paradox GSGs since I discovered and started playing Europa Universalis 20 years ago, in 2004.

What this new series will be about is quite straightforward: each week I will be sharing with you maps of a new different region, so you have an outlook of them and we are able to receive early feedback (because as you may already know from Johan’s Tinto Talks, there is still a lot of WIP stuff ongoing).

About this feedback, we’d like you to take into account a couple of things. The first is that we’ve worked really hard to gather the best sources of information available to craft the best possible map; we used GIS tools with several layers of historical map sources from academic works, geographical data, administrative data, etc., to help us ensure the desired quality. So we would appreciate getting specific suggestions backed by these types of sources, as others (let’s say, a Wikipedia map or YouTube video with no references) may not be reliable enough. The second thing to comment on is that sometimes a certain decision we made was an interpretation over an unclear source, while sometimes we have just plainly made some errors when crafting the map (which on a 30,000 location map is a normal thing, I guess). I’ll let you know when any of these happen, and I’m also going to ask for your understanding when an error or bug is found and confirmed as such.

With those forewords said, let’s start with today’s region: the Low Countries! This is what the political map looks like:

Countries.png

The regional situation in 1337. The counties of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeeland are ruled by William of Avesnes, who is married to Joanna, daughter of Duke John III of Brabant. Another John, the Duke of Luxembourg, might be the strongest power, as he is also the King of Bohemia. The County of Flanders is the wealthiest country in the region, controlling such important cities as Brugge and Ghent. Up in the north, we have other interesting countries, such as the Bishopric of Utrecht or the Republic of Frisia (you might notice that we're using a dynamic custom country name for them, 'Frisian Freedom').

And here we have the locations:

Locations.png

We had a fun bug for some time - Antwerpen didn’t have any pixels connected to the sea, which we found because we couldn’t build any type of port building there. There’s a happy ending, as the bug has already been corrected, and Antwerpen can finally have a proper port!

Provinces:

Provinces.jpg


Terrain (Climate, Topography, and Vegetation):

Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

We are aware that the Netherlands looked differently in the 14th century, as several land reclamations took place during the Late Medieval and Early Modern periods, but we are using a 20th-century version of the map for the sake of consistency. Most of the regions throughout the world would look quite different from nowadays, and documenting those changes (especially the coastline shapes) would be a non-trivial problem to resolve. As a side note, we already removed Flevoland from it, and have already identified some other modern ones that slipped through and we'll eventually remove them, as well.

Cultures:

Cultures.png

The stripes mean that there are pops of different culture inhabiting in those location. Also, the German and French cultures are WIP, we’ll show you a proper version on later Tinto Maps.

Religions:

Religions.png

Not many religions here yet, although there will be interesting religious stuff happening eventually…

Raw Goods:

Goods.png

Goods get regularly swapped around here and there to have a balance between geographical and historical accuracy, and gameplay purposes. So take this as the far-from-final current version of them.

And an additional map for this week:

Markets.png

We reinstated a Low Countries market centered on Antwerpen, after doing some balance tweaks that made it more viable.

And these are the maps for today! I hope that you have a nice weekend, and next Friday, we will travel down south, to Iberia!
 

Attachments

  • Climate.jpg
    Climate.jpg
    357,1 KB · Views: 0
  • Topography.jpg
    Topography.jpg
    402,8 KB · Views: 0
  • Vegetation.jpg
    Vegetation.jpg
    414,6 KB · Views: 0
Last edited:
  • 338Love
  • 129Like
  • 6
  • 3
  • 1Haha
  • 1
Reactions:
Hello everybody, and welcome to the first post of Tinto Maps! This is a new weekly series that we will be running about the top-secret game Project Caesar.

Let me introduce myself before I continue, as some of you may get to know me from the development of the latest EUIV DLCs, but I might not be as well-known to everyone as Johan. I’m Pavía, the Content Design Lead at Paradox Tinto, which I joined in 2021. Before becoming a videogame developer, my background was as a Historian, which led me to work on a PhD. in Medieval History (fool me!), which I finished in 2020. Besides that, I’ve spent several thousands of hours of my life playing Paradox GSGs since I discovered and started playing Europa Universalis 20 years ago, in 2004.

What this new series will be about is quite straightforward: each week I will be sharing with you maps of a new different region, so you have an outlook of them and we are able to receive early feedback (because as you may already know from Johan’s Tinto Talks, there is still a lot of WIP stuff ongoing).

About this feedback, we’d like you to take into account a couple of things. The first is that we’ve worked really hard to gather the best sources of information available to craft the best possible map; we used GIS tools with several layers of historical map sources from academic works, geographical data, administrative data, etc., to help us ensure the desired quality. So we would appreciate getting specific suggestions backed by these types of sources, as others (let’s say, a Wikipedia map or YouTube video with no references) may not be reliable enough. The second thing to comment on is that sometimes a certain decision we made was an interpretation over an unclear source, while sometimes we have just plainly made some errors when crafting the map (which on a 30,000 location map is a normal thing, I guess). I’ll let you know when any of these happen, and I’m also going to ask for your understanding when an error or bug is found and confirmed as such.

With those forewords said, let’s start with today’s region: the Low Countries! This is what the political map looks like:

View attachment 1130588
The regional situation in 1337. The counties of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeeland are ruled by William of Avesnes, who is married to Joanna, daughter of Duke John III of Brabant. Another John, the Duke of Luxembourg, might be the strongest power, as he is also the King of Bohemia. The County of Flanders is the wealthiest country in the region, controlling such important cities as Brugge and Ghent. Up in the north, we have other interesting countries, such as the Bishopric of Utrecht or the Republic of Frisia (you might notice that we're using a dynamic custom country name for them, 'Frisian Freedom').

And here we have the locations:

View attachment 1130589
We had a fun bug for some time - Antwerpen didn’t have any pixels connected to the sea, which we found because we couldn’t build any type of port building there. There’s a happy ending, as the bug has already been corrected, and Antwerpen can finally have a proper port!

Provinces:

View attachment 1130889

Terrain (Climate, Topography, and Vegetation):

View attachment 1130626
View attachment 1130627
View attachment 1130628
We are aware that the Netherlands looked differently in the 14th century, as several land reclamations took place during the Late Medieval and Early Modern periods, but we are using a 20th-century version of the map for the sake of consistency. Most of the regions throughout the world would look quite different from nowadays, and documenting those changes (especially the coastline shapes) would be a non-trivial problem to resolve. As a side note, we already removed Flevoland from it, and have already identified some other modern ones that slipped through and we'll eventually remove them, as well.

Cultures:

View attachment 1130590
The stripes mean that there are pops of different culture inhabiting in those location. Also, the German and French cultures are WIP, we’ll show you a proper version on later Tinto Maps.

Religions:

View attachment 1130591
Not many religions here yet, although there will be interesting religious stuff happening eventually…

Raw Goods:

View attachment 1130592
Goods get regularly swapped around here and there to have a balance between geographical and historical accuracy, and gameplay purposes. So take this as the far-from-final current version of them.

And an additional map for this week:

View attachment 1130593
We reinstated a Low Countries market centered on Antwerpen, after doing some balance tweaks that made it more viable.

And these are the maps for today! I hope that you have a nice weekend, and next Friday, we will travel down south, to Iberia!
I dont know if anybody has said this before me, but it seems a bit weird to call Friesland "west-Friesland", considering that there is a region near Alkmaar (Noord Holland) called West-Friesland. Maybe the province should be called "Friesland Proper" or just "Friesland".
 
  • 4
Reactions:
About this feedback, we’d like you to take into account a couple of things. The first is that we’ve worked really hard to gather the best sources of information available to craft the best possible map; we used GIS tools with several layers of historical map sources from academic works, geographical data, administrative data, etc., to help us ensure the desired quality. So we would appreciate getting specific suggestions backed by these types of sources, as others (let’s say, a Wikipedia map or YouTube video with no references) may not be reliable enough. The second thing to comment on is that sometimes a certain decision we made was an interpretation over an unclear source, while sometimes we have just plainly made some errors when crafting the map (which on a 30,000 location map is a normal thing, I guess). I’ll let you know when any of these happen, and I’m also going to ask for your understanding when an error or bug is found and confirmed as such.
Dear @Pavía , there is no doubt that you and your team did a lot of research and you’ve already made an excellent map, that needs only a few improvements.

But we’ve noticed that you’ve missed a few things that are not well covered by English-language source, although there are German and Dutch sources on them. Here are 4 Case points: Montfoort in Utrecht, Zeeland, Cloppenburg and the Cologne/Berg area.

And some comments on suggestions others have made here and you’ve already noted them.

A concern we have is that areas with fewer english languaeg sources, (MENA, Asia, Africa, Latin America) might be

Case Points:

1. Montfoort:
Here's a case why it should be a location and a tag:
  • carve Montfoort out of Utrecht.

  • others have already proposed to make Amersfoort a separate location from Utrecht, that’s a good idea.

  • However, Montfoort was a third-largest city of Utrecht province, and the 1337 start date warrants an own tag for it.

  • The Van Montfoort family were vassals of the Bishop of Utrecht, who granted them Montfoort castle to defend Utrecht, but played an important roles in the politics in both in the prince-bishopric and in the county of Holland, particularly under the rule of Jan III van Montfoort. His involvement in the Hook and Cod wars triggered two civil wars in Utrecht. Without a separtate location and tag for Montfoort these would be impossible to recreate!

  • Monfoort had big cultural importance, as They have commissioned the oldest painting in the Netherlands.

  • Adding Montfoort would make Utrecht more defensible, a hostile army coming from South-west would need to siege Monfort first before attacking Utrecht directly

  • together, these would justify adding Montfoort as a location and tag.

  • Montfoort should be:

  • 1. A location, separate form Utrecht.
  • proposed raw good: wheat, the area was less urbanised than Utrecht proper or Amersfoort

  • together with Amersfort as a location, will allow you to make an in-game Utrecht province with 3 locations.


  • 2 A 1-location tag, vassals of Utrecht. ruler in 1337: Burggraaf (viscount) Jan I van Montfoort

  • That would would be more accurate depiction of the situation, Montfoort was not fully integrated into Utrecht until 1648.

  • Sources per NL-wikipedia:
  • Montfoort bij de Heraldry of the World

  • P. H. A. M. Abels, Oudheidkundige Kring, Duizend jaar Gouda: een stadsgeschiedenis.

  • Buiskool, Koen, 'De heren van Linschoten. Hun bezittingen en hun rechten' in: Landgoed Linschoten. Een geschiedboek, Reinink, Wessel (red.) (1994 Bussum; Uitgeverij Thoth) blz. 86-131, aldaar lijst burggraven van Montfoort.

  • De burggraven van Montfoort in de geschiedenis van het Sticht Utrecht en het graafschap Holland, ± 1260-1490 (Assen, 1957) 57-64); vgl. Cont. V Joannis de Beka, Chronographia, 346-348; Vermeerderde Beka, 282-285;

  • Joannes à Leydis, Chronicon XXXI. 38, f. 305; Divisiekroniek XXV. 33, f. 260, 261.

  • Graaf, R. de (2004): Oorlog om Holland 1000-1375, Uitgeverij Verloren, Hilversum.

  • Dr. P.M. v. Linden: De burggraven van Montfoort; uitgegeven 1957


2. Zeeland:

Middlenburg location should be split in 2 or 3. These islands were well defensible, in 1945 the Germans remained in control of Schouwen-Duiveland island (that didn’t became one island until 1610), while the rest of Zeeland was liberated by the Allies. With even more islands in the earlier centuries, it should be possible to capture some of them while another tag holds others.

Additionally, creating multiple locations will allow you making Zeeland a proper province instead of a part of South Holland province.
Zeeland_1500.png


Possible names for these new location*s: Goes, Tholen, Reimerswaal, Zierikzee

raw goods: 1 of the locations should keep Salt, but the other should have Fish. If you make a third location, that one could have Pearls.





3. Cloppenburg:

Between 1297 and 1393 Cloppenburg was controlled by the Counts of Tecklenburg.
On June 13, 1393 the Bishops of Münster and Osnabrück made an Alliance against Tecklenburg and later that year conquered Cloppenburg.
On October 25, 1400 they forced Tecklenburg to surrender. While originally Cloppenburg was part of the Bishopric of Osnabrück,
on Dezember 28, 1396 it was ceded to Münster. From then until 1803 it remained part of the Niederstift Münster.

As you see, these dates are precisely documented in German sources, as seen her on the German Wiki on Cloppenburg.

Cloppenburg should be controlled directly by Tecklenburg at Startdate.

That means, in 1337 Osnabrück should NOT own Cloppenburg, but only have a claim.

Meppen and Vechta were also politically part of Münster, but they belonged to the diocese of Osnabrück until 1668. If Osnabrück doesn’t already have claims on these two locations, it should get them.





4. Cologne, Koblenz and nearby areas:

Spelling issue: old German used C instead of modern K in many names, including Köln and Koblenz. If you want to invoke an old time feeling, it’s okay to use it, but it should be consistent.

Either use Köln and Koblenz or Cöln and Coblenz, but Köln and Coblenz together looks odd.



I. Kölngau Borders make no sense. The historical Kölngau was only slightly bigger than the Köln location, and entirely on the left Side of the Rhine. About half of this Province actually corresponds to the historical and cultural region Bergisches Land.
K%C3%B6ln-und-Nachbargaue.jpg




You should move Köln to the Bonngau province (that would need a new name).

Replace the Kölngau province with 2 New Provinces:

1. Bergisches Land: Düseldorf, Remscheid, Gummersbach, Siegburg (4 locations)

2. Westerwald: Altenkirchen, Koblenz, Monatabaur (3 locations)


The Koblenz location should be probable renamed Wied. Koblenz is at a corner, bordering Mayen location, and most of the location is on the right bank of the Rhine while Koblenz is on the Left. Much of the location was part of the County of Wied and should be named Wied.
Wied_1400.PNG

that map shows the area in 1400, but 1337 was not much different.

The Mayen location should be renamed Koblenz.




II. The tag borders are notably inaccurate and you really should redraw them somewhat:

As others have already stated, Köln was independent from the Electorate since 1288. Cologne won Independence in the same Battle that Brabant acquired Limburg. It became a Hanseatic City, as the Owner of a Market location will have influence on what’s traded there, and the Owner in 1337 and later was certainly not the Prince-Archbishop.

That was not an unusual Condition: cities like Lübeck and Riga were in similar Situations.

After being chased out of Cologne City, the Archbishop of Cologne resided mainly in Bonn. It wan’t made the official Capital of the Electorate until 1597, but was the most important Location there, and residence of the Elector.
The Dukes of Berg did not own Bonn!
The Bonn Minster was built at that time as the de facto cathedral of the Archbishop.



Siegburg: it was ruled by a local Franciscan Abbey and a city council. Between 1402 and 1407 the Siegburg war was fought over it, which resulted in the Duchy of Berg effectively puppetising the City. Much later Siegburg was annexed by Berg in 1676.

As the Archbishop was not directly involved in the 1400s war, it would be better to make Siegburg an own tag, perhaps a vassal of Cologne to represent this.



III.

Coblenz/Wied. As explained above, the location currently named Coblenz should be renamed Wied and should be owned by a new tag named Iseburg-Wied. the county, later principality of Wied existed until 1806, and became more influential over time.

The ruling family, House von Isenburg was extensive and still exists today. Technically, in 1337 these were two counties (Isenburg and Wied) in a PU, but as they are in 1 location it’s fine to represent them as one tag in one location.

Isenburg-Wied was about the same importance as the northern neighbour Sayn, but you have a Sayn as a tag but not Wied. Thatäs an odd inconsistency.

Summary of 4:

3 new 1 location minor tags needed (all should be part of the HRE):

  • Köln City-state (Köln): independent or a disloyal Vassal of Cologne, member of the Hanseatic league.
  • Siegburg (Siegburg): a minor Abbey-state, vassal of Cologne
  • Isenburg-Wied (Wied, currently named Coblenz): fully independent county
  • Transfer Location ownership: Bonn from Berg to Cologne. Should be Capital of the Cologne Tag instead of Köln
  • Rename: Coblenz>Wied and Mayen>Coblenz or Koblenz

some more things:
Tags:

there is a notable inconsistency how personal unions are depicted:

Hainaut, Holland and Zeeland are separate tags

Brabant and Limburg are separate tags

If you want to keep them separated, you have to add a few more tags as vassals:


but:

Mechelen is currently not a tagat all (?!?) but owned by Brabant. It should be a separate tag, a vassal of Flanders. Mecheln was one of the Seventeen Provinces.

Oversticht should be a vassal of Utrecht, owning all locations in Overijssel and Drenthe provinces.



Drenthe and the soil quality

Many here have proposed to merge the locations in Drenthe to represent how poor the area was.

Here’s an alternative idea: keep the 3 locations (but rename Coevorden>Meppel and Emmen>Coevorden) but:

change the vegetation in all of them from Grassland to Sparse.

This change will make Drenthe stand out among the more fertile neighbouring areas, while allowing fine-tuned army manoeuvres in the area.


Alright, here are my suggestions for the trade goods. I ended up filling the entire map, I obviously don't expect everything to be copied like that, but once I started suggesting some goods, then that necessarily meant some other goods had to move around.
When it comes to things like crops, I don't think you'll find many good sources for exactly how they were distributed anyway so it's pretty arbitrary.

I made a map with all the suggestions:
Raw goods for some locations that others have already proposed to be added:


Bentheim. proposed by @tinholt @Diogenes_Quanzi : Stone. The area is known for their sandstone quarry

Bergen op Zoom. proposed by @TheAstralWolf @andreengels @Lukaz_T : probably sand.

Charleroi. proposed by @Pandarr : coal

Delft
proposed by @JWKasper @Brynjar @g02@ : probably fish.

Haarlem. proposed by @Athius @JWKaper @Mkuiper1994 @g02@ and @Lukaz_T : Sand. The area has many sand dunes.

Tillburg. proposed by @Davincie : Livestock, fitting with textile industry

Now for my feedback regarding the actual maps posted.

Locations, provinces and borders
I'm going to leave the details about which city or county should be represented to others who know these things better than I do, but I do want to bring up one point:

France obviously took some land that used to be part of Flanders and Wallonia. Random map from Wikipedia for reference.
I am a big proponent of having locations and provinces designed in such a way that they can naturally lead to historical borders.
That means in this case, that I would group up all the locations became part of France, and group the locations that stayed with Wallonia.
In the map shown, Dunkirk and Cassel are part of West Flanders even though they went to France, while Tournai is part of Romance Flanders even though it stayed with what is now Belgium, while Valenciennes is part of Hainaut even though it went to France.

I don't know how much the grouping into provinces affects gameplay, but I personally would like to see provinces grouped in the way they turned out historically in the time period.
So in this case, you could make a Flemish province with Dunkirk, Cassel and Lille, and another province with Douai and Valenciennes, while adding Tournai to Hainaut.
This is a very good idea, let’s hope @Johan and @Pavia take note.

it seems the Border between Germany and the Benelux states is already reflected by these province borders, but France’s north border is less well defined.

Other province border changes suggestions:

Put Thionville into Verdun province. If things go bad for Luxembourg, it could lose it as happened historically, but if Luxembourg goes strong, this would nudge them to expand south.

If you think that without Thionville East Luxembourg province would be too small, merge East and West Luxembourg provinces, they were politically united through the whole timeframe of the game anyway.



More new provinces needed:

(in addition to Bergisches Land and Westerwald replacing Kölngau, see above)

Zeeland province: it would be a good new province, potentially driving conflict between Holland and Flanders. It should consist of the existing Middlenburg and Hulst locations, plus 1 or 2 more island locations carved out of Middlenburg (3 or 4 locations total).

Utrecht province.

if you add Amersfoort and Montfoort as locations, these 3 together will allow you to represent Utrecht province in the game. It would have the same number of locations as Drenthe, Overijsel and others.



Holland: if you add the Haarlem and Delft locations, North and South Holland would have the same number of locations despite losing Utrecht and Middlenburg respectively. But if you fear they would be too small, you could merge them into a big Holland province. In that case, you should give Hoorn to the West Friesland province.
 
  • 8
  • 5Like
  • 2
Reactions:
@Pavía Will you not be sharing the terrain map with us? I'm one of those minority players who always plays on terrain and I really hope the terrain in this game will be beautiful!!..
I am one of those that also plays in terrain map mode 90% of the time, and as you, I hope it is a beautiful one and has a dedicated terrain mode and not as in CK3 or I:R where terrain is at best hybridized with political boundaries. Apart from it, I think the terrain alone in CK3 or I:R is very well-made. In the case of I:R can be accessed using the macro builder as in the screenshot below.

Screenshot.jpg
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
I've been looking at the map a bit and realized that while the locations seem to be following the rhine (which i aboslutely love) some seem to go ever so slightly over the river, like berg and utrecht, and autistic people like myself would defenitely appreciate it if they followed the big rivers exactly :)
1715702674325.png

some are not so slightly
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
i have a problem with the locations surounding utrecht.
these are:
1.amesfoort en region should be an extra location to give the province some more dynamic and the city was relativally important
2.hilversum and erea can become indipendent for better better bodrers and a little important town.
3.the borders of the province look a lot like the modern provinces i can not imagine that the borders looked this the same
4.there would also be a lot more forrest in the netherlands because the forrest in that region was used for the ships of the voc
5. more of a tip but you could make it that if you chop to much wood in a to short window of time a forrest becomes a woods or a farmland.
6.you could add some more of these change to terain during the game that is implemented by the player wether it wants it or it is a unwanted conseqence
 
The province of Leiningen is rather big and reaches too far in to the north. The province could be the territory of Rheingrafenstein (the Lords of Stein, later Wild- and Rheingrafen), Veldenz (County of Veldenz) or Alzey (part of Palatinate) as well. If the province stays that big Alzey would be more fitting since it was the most important city in that region.



Kreuznach has to be a part of the Nahegau. It's the core province of the Nahegau and the province where the river Nahe is located. The provinces south and east of Mainz and Leiningen are historical part of the Wormsgau and Speyergau.

Bliesgau could be renamed as Westrich (Westerich, Westerrich). The region was often called that way in earlier time. I think it does sound better than Bliesgau. Also there is already a lot of names with Gau in that area.
 
Is the Ijssel river going to be connected to the Rhine in this game? Like how it is IRL? In games like eu4 and other paradox games it's often not connected, making it a weird unnatural river. I know it's a small detail but would be cool to show how the Rhine splits. I don't know how crossings are handled but it could also have an effect on that in the region, creating a natural frontline/border if wanted by the western low countries countries
 
Last edited:
  • 2Like
Reactions:
The map and the ‘locations’ in particular is very clearly based on modern topography (notwithstanding the geographical issues of shifted coastlines, drained lakes etc which has been addressed) as it features locations that were of no significance at the time.
Being from Enschede myself it pains me to say this, but it was in no way the centre of the region (Twente, which seems to overlap pretty much exactly with the location) until industrialization. Oldenzaal, being both the religious center, the oldest and largest ‘city’ as well as the only fortified one till the 15th century would fit much better. Similarly, as the “Drenthe should not be province” post points out Assen and Emmen were insignificant hamlets at the time. The earlier suggestion of Meppel to take up one of the Drenthe locations has similar problems, as it did not become significant until the 16th century. (Similarly Apeldoorn only really became a thing due to 16th century paper-industry harvesting timber on the Veluwe.)
Coevorden, the only town in Drenthe that was probably notable at the time, does not appear to localized within location of Coevorden, as it is right on the border with the Niedergrafschaft (justice for Grafschaft Bentheim btw!) in modern day Germany, and neither, to my eye, does Arnhem, which I think would be firmly within the dangly bit of Apeldoorn location that stretches towards Nijmegen.
 
  • 6Like
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
The Koblenz location should be probable renamed Wied. Koblenz is at a corner, bordering Mayen location, and most of the location is on the right bank of the Rhine while Koblenz is on the Left. Much of the location was part of the County of Wied and should be named Wied.
Wied_1400.PNG

that map shows the area in 1400, but 1337 was not much different.

The Mayen location should be renamed Koblenz.
I don't want to talk too much about Germany because that's not the topic for this thread, but this one is especially something that stood out to me in regards to the natural landscape. In the location that is called Mayen there is a landscape called Middle Rhine Basin which has a microclimate, great soil and intensive agriculture (so should definitely be farmland) but it is basically surrounded by forested hilly landscapes on all sides (Eifel, Hunsrück, Westerwald, Taunus).
Koblenz is associated with this basin because it's located at the North Eastern edge of it, but the Coblenz location shown in the screenshot, while barely including the city, is basically all Westerwald - hilly, forested, bad infrastructure and as seen on the quoted map, not even associated with the city, but with Wied and Isenburg.
It would make a lot more sense to name the Mayen location Coblenz (and extend it a tiny bit to the east to include the city) so it can be fertile farmland feeding Koblenz, while the location that is named Coblenz right now can be forested and hilly.

Honestly there could even be some some small impassable areas in the Westerwald and parts of the location called Rüdesheim, owned by Mainz. These banks of the Rhine have steep cliffs and are sparsely populated, even today. In fact using roads along the Rhine was sometimes not possible due to flooding. The main land trade route between Frankfurt and Köln went in a fairly straight line through Limburg and Altenkirchen.
However, if the Rhine isn't represented as locations on the map, then it doesn't really make sense.
 
Last edited:
  • 7Like
Reactions:
What's the justification for having Dutch and Flemish cultures be separate in 1337? Obviously there's different dialects here and there but they are more related to one another than to for instance Low German, and I'm not sure there would have been a sharp distinction between a northern "Dutch" and a southern "Flemish" before modernity. Full disclaimer it's not like I'm an expert in the area, just wanted to ask.

Shouldn't Overjissel be Low German culture as well, given that that's the main language there?

A Picard culture is exciting though.
Paradox has never been famous about accurate cultural depictions. And u are totally right, they've done the same in CK3 with Galician and Portuguese, splitting in a sharp cut the second even before any written document of the first...

I guess they gonna do again the same for Galician and Portuguese in EU5, when clearly there were not any regular differences but several irregularly distributed varieties and traits in the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries, they will (probably) do the same with Catalonian, Valencian, Balearic(s), or with Asturian, Mirandese and Leonese, etc., while probably having a single massive block of "Spanish" (Castilian) maybe with a clear cut in an invented "Andalusian". And of course all of this at the same level (with the same relationship between them).

Honestly Paradox management of the cultural stuff is pretty bad (and I guess somewhat "biased" to 21 national-states cultural prevalence) and is really sad as it really mess with immersion (the turkish-arab thing of eu4 f.e.).
 
  • 1
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Paradox has never been famous about accurate cultural depictions. And u are totally right, they've done the same in CK3 with Galician and Portuguese, splitting in a sharp cut the second even before any written document of the first...

I guess they gonna do again the same for Galician and Portuguese in EU5, when clearly there were not any regular differences but several irregularly distributed varieties and traits in the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries, they will (probably) do the same with Catalonian, Valencian, Balearic(s), or with Asturian, Mirandese and Leonese, etc., while probably having a single massive block of "Spanish" (Castilian) maybe with a clear cut in an invented "Andalusian". And of course all of this at the same level (with the same relationship between them).

Honestly Paradox management of the cultural stuff is pretty bad (and I guess somewhat "biased" to 21 national-states cultural prevalence) and is really sad as it really mess with immersion (the turkish-arab thing of eu4 f.e.).
Maybe wait another 53 hours, at which point there should be no hypotheticals anymore for the current state of Iberian cultures...
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
Paradox has never been famous about accurate cultural depictions. And u are totally right, they've done the same in CK3 with Galician and Portuguese, splitting in a sharp cut the second even before any written document of the first...

I guess they gonna do again the same for Galician and Portuguese in EU5, when clearly there were not any regular differences but several irregularly distributed varieties and traits in the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries, they will (probably) do the same with Catalonian, Valencian, Balearic(s), or with Asturian, Mirandese and Leonese, etc., while probably having a single massive block of "Spanish" (Castilian) maybe with a clear cut in an invented "Andalusian". And of course all of this at the same level (with the same relationship between them).

Honestly Paradox management of the cultural stuff is pretty bad (and I guess somewhat "biased" to 21 national-states cultural prevalence) and is really sad as it really mess with immersion (the turkish-arab thing of eu4 f.e.).
I mean, of all cultures and areas being represented with a greater degree of granularity and accuracy, I would hope that Spain - where Paradox Tinto, the developers of Project Caesar, is located - and Iberia in general would be at the top of that list
 
  • 1Haha
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Hello everybody, and welcome to the first post of Tinto Maps! This is a new weekly series that we will be running about the top-secret game Project Caesar.

Let me introduce myself before I continue, as some of you may get to know me from the development of the latest EUIV DLCs, but I might not be as well-known to everyone as Johan. I’m Pavía, the Content Design Lead at Paradox Tinto, which I joined in 2021. Before becoming a videogame developer, my background was as a Historian, which led me to work on a PhD. in Medieval History (fool me!), which I finished in 2020. Besides that, I’ve spent several thousands of hours of my life playing Paradox GSGs since I discovered and started playing Europa Universalis 20 years ago, in 2004.

What this new series will be about is quite straightforward: each week I will be sharing with you maps of a new different region, so you have an outlook of them and we are able to receive early feedback (because as you may already know from Johan’s Tinto Talks, there is still a lot of WIP stuff ongoing).

About this feedback, we’d like you to take into account a couple of things. The first is that we’ve worked really hard to gather the best sources of information available to craft the best possible map; we used GIS tools with several layers of historical map sources from academic works, geographical data, administrative data, etc., to help us ensure the desired quality. So we would appreciate getting specific suggestions backed by these types of sources, as others (let’s say, a Wikipedia map or YouTube video with no references) may not be reliable enough. The second thing to comment on is that sometimes a certain decision we made was an interpretation over an unclear source, while sometimes we have just plainly made some errors when crafting the map (which on a 30,000 location map is a normal thing, I guess). I’ll let you know when any of these happen, and I’m also going to ask for your understanding when an error or bug is found and confirmed as such.

With those forewords said, let’s start with today’s region: the Low Countries! This is what the political map looks like:

View attachment 1130588
The regional situation in 1337. The counties of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeeland are ruled by William of Avesnes, who is married to Joanna, daughter of Duke John III of Brabant. Another John, the Duke of Luxembourg, might be the strongest power, as he is also the King of Bohemia. The County of Flanders is the wealthiest country in the region, controlling such important cities as Brugge and Ghent. Up in the north, we have other interesting countries, such as the Bishopric of Utrecht or the Republic of Frisia (you might notice that we're using a dynamic custom country name for them, 'Frisian Freedom').

And here we have the locations:

View attachment 1130589
We had a fun bug for some time - Antwerpen didn’t have any pixels connected to the sea, which we found because we couldn’t build any type of port building there. There’s a happy ending, as the bug has already been corrected, and Antwerpen can finally have a proper port!

Provinces:

View attachment 1130889

Terrain (Climate, Topography, and Vegetation):

View attachment 1130626
View attachment 1130627
View attachment 1130628
We are aware that the Netherlands looked differently in the 14th century, as several land reclamations took place during the Late Medieval and Early Modern periods, but we are using a 20th-century version of the map for the sake of consistency. Most of the regions throughout the world would look quite different from nowadays, and documenting those changes (especially the coastline shapes) would be a non-trivial problem to resolve. As a side note, we already removed Flevoland from it, and have already identified some other modern ones that slipped through and we'll eventually remove them, as well.

Cultures:

View attachment 1130590
The stripes mean that there are pops of different culture inhabiting in those location. Also, the German and French cultures are WIP, we’ll show you a proper version on later Tinto Maps.

Religions:

View attachment 1130591
Not many religions here yet, although there will be interesting religious stuff happening eventually…

Raw Goods:

View attachment 1130592
Goods get regularly swapped around here and there to have a balance between geographical and historical accuracy, and gameplay purposes. So take this as the far-from-final current version of them.

And an additional map for this week:

View attachment 1130593
We reinstated a Low Countries market centered on Antwerpen, after doing some balance tweaks that made it more viable.

And these are the maps for today! I hope that you have a nice weekend, and next Friday, we will travel down south, to Iberia!
Hey there,

I'm from Brabant and personally I think you should rather split the culture of Brabant,Limburg and Northern Belgian rather then merging them into "Flemish". Even thought having Brabantic, Limburgian and Flemish feels like much, Brabantic definatly deserves their own culture. I am not saying this through my bias and I shall try to explain it further.
View attachment 1132857

The Dutch language really started developing in Brabant, no not in Belgium but in North Brabant. The accence that the People of Brabant had in speaking the same language compared to other area's was the foundation of the modern-day-correct-dutch (if you understand me).
Up to these days "Brabants" (the dialect of brabant) still has influence into large parts of the Netherlands (as you can see in the first file). Up to this day, there are around 5 million speakers of the Brabantic dialects.

I do have to admit that the real influence of Brabant on Dutch only started during the 80 years war, but I am only talking about a language so far, the real culture in terms of traditions etc. is unique and always has been unique in the Netherlands.

I could go into the traditions further but I think my post would be to long then.

Greetings from me.

(I got my sources through: personal knowledge, "overnederlandsgesproken" and the university of Utrecht)
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
I haven't seen this question, but why is the Veluwe not represented on the map? (Or maybe it is, but we can't see it here). It is an area with historically poor and sandy soil who's name is related to the English "fallow land".
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I haven't seen this question, but why is the Veluwe not represented on the map? (Or maybe it is, but we can't see it here). It is an area with historically poor and sandy soil who's name is related to the English "fallow land".
How would it be represented? It's not exactly steppe, so the best vegetation for it is still just grassland.
 
How would it be represented? It's not exactly steppe, so the best vegetation for it is still just grassland.
Due to overuse, there were large areas of bare sand grounds. There often wasn't even heath, just sand. "grassland" wouldn't really describe it.

But I also asked if it would be represented in another way, that isn't visible on this map.
 
This is just wrong though? Either you need distinct cultures for every Dutch region, or to not seperate Flemish from it. It's equally weird to have all of modern Flanders as Flatland and Farmland and modern Netherlands as Marsh and Grassland, moreso if those are locked forever.