• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Maps #1 - 10th of May 2024 - Low Countries

Hello everybody, and welcome to the first post of Tinto Maps! This is a new weekly series that we will be running about the top-secret game Project Caesar.

Let me introduce myself before I continue, as some of you may get to know me from the development of the latest EUIV DLCs, but I might not be as well-known to everyone as Johan. I’m Pavía, the Content Design Lead at Paradox Tinto, which I joined in 2021. Before becoming a videogame developer, my background was as a Historian, which led me to work on a PhD. in Medieval History (fool me!), which I finished in 2020. Besides that, I’ve spent several thousands of hours of my life playing Paradox GSGs since I discovered and started playing Europa Universalis 20 years ago, in 2004.

What this new series will be about is quite straightforward: each week I will be sharing with you maps of a new different region, so you have an outlook of them and we are able to receive early feedback (because as you may already know from Johan’s Tinto Talks, there is still a lot of WIP stuff ongoing).

About this feedback, we’d like you to take into account a couple of things. The first is that we’ve worked really hard to gather the best sources of information available to craft the best possible map; we used GIS tools with several layers of historical map sources from academic works, geographical data, administrative data, etc., to help us ensure the desired quality. So we would appreciate getting specific suggestions backed by these types of sources, as others (let’s say, a Wikipedia map or YouTube video with no references) may not be reliable enough. The second thing to comment on is that sometimes a certain decision we made was an interpretation over an unclear source, while sometimes we have just plainly made some errors when crafting the map (which on a 30,000 location map is a normal thing, I guess). I’ll let you know when any of these happen, and I’m also going to ask for your understanding when an error or bug is found and confirmed as such.

With those forewords said, let’s start with today’s region: the Low Countries! This is what the political map looks like:

Countries.png

The regional situation in 1337. The counties of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeeland are ruled by William of Avesnes, who is married to Joanna, daughter of Duke John III of Brabant. Another John, the Duke of Luxembourg, might be the strongest power, as he is also the King of Bohemia. The County of Flanders is the wealthiest country in the region, controlling such important cities as Brugge and Ghent. Up in the north, we have other interesting countries, such as the Bishopric of Utrecht or the Republic of Frisia (you might notice that we're using a dynamic custom country name for them, 'Frisian Freedom').

And here we have the locations:

Locations.png

We had a fun bug for some time - Antwerpen didn’t have any pixels connected to the sea, which we found because we couldn’t build any type of port building there. There’s a happy ending, as the bug has already been corrected, and Antwerpen can finally have a proper port!

Provinces:

Provinces.jpg


Terrain (Climate, Topography, and Vegetation):

Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

We are aware that the Netherlands looked differently in the 14th century, as several land reclamations took place during the Late Medieval and Early Modern periods, but we are using a 20th-century version of the map for the sake of consistency. Most of the regions throughout the world would look quite different from nowadays, and documenting those changes (especially the coastline shapes) would be a non-trivial problem to resolve. As a side note, we already removed Flevoland from it, and have already identified some other modern ones that slipped through and we'll eventually remove them, as well.

Cultures:

Cultures.png

The stripes mean that there are pops of different culture inhabiting in those location. Also, the German and French cultures are WIP, we’ll show you a proper version on later Tinto Maps.

Religions:

Religions.png

Not many religions here yet, although there will be interesting religious stuff happening eventually…

Raw Goods:

Goods.png

Goods get regularly swapped around here and there to have a balance between geographical and historical accuracy, and gameplay purposes. So take this as the far-from-final current version of them.

And an additional map for this week:

Markets.png

We reinstated a Low Countries market centered on Antwerpen, after doing some balance tweaks that made it more viable.

And these are the maps for today! I hope that you have a nice weekend, and next Friday, we will travel down south, to Iberia!
 

Attachments

  • Climate.jpg
    Climate.jpg
    357,1 KB · Views: 0
  • Topography.jpg
    Topography.jpg
    402,8 KB · Views: 0
  • Vegetation.jpg
    Vegetation.jpg
    414,6 KB · Views: 0
Last edited:
  • 338Love
  • 129Like
  • 6
  • 3
  • 1Haha
  • 1
Reactions:
Very nice feedback, the only thing I disagree with is changing Den Haag to delft as Den Haag was both the capital of the duchy of Holland and the de facto capital of the Dutch republic.
I also think 's-Gravenhage was more relevant for the second half of the time period of the game, and honestly I'd prefer to see both on the map. Alas, I think that would result in too tiny provinces. The first 300 years of the game, Delft would be a more important strategic location and have a higher population than 's-Gravenhage. It would also serve as a capital in the Hook and Cod wars (a large Hollandic civil war) and be an important bastion for attackers to conquer (hence why William of Orange set up court in Delft after declaring independence). I think both are acceptable, I just slightly lean more towards Delft, especially at the beginning of the game.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
What's the justification for having Dutch and Flemish cultures be separate in 1337? Obviously there's different dialects here and there but they are more related to one another than to for instance Low German, and I'm not sure there would have been a sharp distinction between a northern "Dutch" and a southern "Flemish" before modernity. Full disclaimer it's not like I'm an expert in the area, just wanted to ask.

Shouldn't Overjissel be Low German culture as well, given that that's the main language there?

A Picard culture is exciting though.
hi, i am flemish myself and yes there are a lot of similarities, but also a lot of differences and not just in our vocab. It's like assuming the Occitans are french even tough they aren't. I am from west flanders so i don't 100% know flemish culture as here we have a west flemish culture which is more leaning towards the french culture then dutch or flemish
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Romance Flanders is a linguistic-cultural term and refers to the part of the County of Flanders where the inhabitants mainly spoke a Latin-derived language instead of a Germanic-derived one. Other names that refer to (approximately) the same area are:

(1) Rijsels-Vlaanderen (NL), Flandre lilloise (FR), 'Lille Flanders' (EN), which emphasizes the most important Romance language city of the County;

(2) Waals-Vlaanderen/Romaans-Vlaanderen (NL), Flandre wallonne/Flandre gallican(t)e (FR), Walloon Flanders or, in Early Modern English, Welch Flanders (EN), which emphasizes the 'Walloon'/'Roman' language the people spoke (In this time period, "Walloon' or 'Waals' [modern Dutch]/'Walsch' [Middle Dutch] was used to refer to all the Latin-derived languages that were spoken in the vicinity of the Low Countries and not just the language varieties that we now currently call Walloon).

The language border was still south of lille at the time though. This all came to be because the french crown got these territories 22 years before the game start. Lille was basically founded by the counts of flanders around Hôtel de la salle.

I don't know if you even looked at your own page of Walloon you showed becuase it shows that that isn;t the latin language that was spoken there. It's picardi. Flanders and Wallonia regions don't border each other. There is picardi and brabant between them. The modern borders are very recent and vastlly different from the original historic interpretations.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
As a Dutchy im very excited for these maps. I always hoped that we could have more provinces in the lowlands, so im very happy! I still have some questions about certain decisions that are made.
  1. Why is there no representation of the lakes in the Holland area, especially Haarlemmermeer? This lake existed for a long time until 1848 when it was drained. Considering the historical significance, particularly in the cooperation with the region of Leiden, it seems logical to incorporate this lake. It played a crucial role in elevating Leiden's prominence by facilitating overwater trade with Haarlem, Amsterdam, and even providing access to North Sea trade routes. Without this lake, Leiden and Haarlem would have been isolated from the sea, limiting their trading capacities."
  2. While I appreciate the addition of more provinces in the lowlands, I'm curious about the decision to incorporate 'Emmen' as a location. Emmen lost its prominence significantly after the battle of Ane in 1227 and the subsequent burning down of the settlement by Wilbrand von Oldenburg in 1229. Following these events, Emmen's importance declined, and the region became increasingly influenced by the city of Coevorden. It would be more logical to integrate Emmen into Coevorden. Additionally, I suggest separating the city of Kampen from the Zwolle location. Kampen held far more prominence and importance in the region compared to Emmen. While Zwolle exerted a certain influence on this coastal city, Kampen retained a distinct individuality, as it, unlike Zwolle, did not sign any agreements with the Hanze. Another possibility in the Emmen area could involve incorporating the location of Bentheim. As a resident of Groningen, I would appreciate representation for this region, as our beloved Martinitoren was constructed using stones from Bentheim. Bentheim was renowned for its sandstone, often referred to as 'Bentheimer gold,' making it a significantly influential region in comparison.
  3. This is just a question, because I’m curious. Is it possible to release the city of Groningen and/or the Ommelanden as separate entities?
I have found some scources for my earlier comment.

The first source is a Dutch dissertation by Jan van den Broek, a Dutch historian. Even if you don't have someone on your team who can read Dutch, it still contains many useful maps for the Groningen and Ommelanden areas (made by Henk Kampen). On page 53, there's a example of the point @hertogsim made: Groningen was part of the convenant of the Upstalboom, but it wasn't part of the entities of the Frisian freedom. Instead, it was part of the bishopric lands of Utrecht, although it enjoyed a considerable degree of autonomy. It also shows the dynamic between the city of Groningen and the Ommelanden (part of the Frisian freedom), there was a feud about jurisdiction, but also a great dependency and exchange between the two.

Finding old maps of the Netherlands beyond the 1500 mark can be challenging, as Dutch cartography experienced its heyday during the early modern period rather than the Middle Ages. While not directly representative to the time frame of this new 'mysterious' game, the University of Utrecht's website can provide some assistance in locating historical maps of the Netherlands. These resources are particularly valuable for regions like Drenthe, where significant changes were less frequent compared to areas such as Holland. The oldest maps accessible through this site for the northern region of the Netherlands date back to 1567 and 1576. However, it's worth noting, as a historian would be aware, that these depictions may not always be entirely accurate. Most mapmakers hailed from Holland, and not all ventured to the northern territories, potentially leading to discrepancies in their representations. Georeferencing University Utrecht Also the wikimediacommons makes it possible to view old maps from the: in particulair I found maps from ca. 1400 depicting the Zeeland area, especialy the more complex nature of the coastal area as some people have pointed out.

Apparently i can't add links to this thread so i try it this way:
go to wikimedia after the / you put wiki/Category:Old_maps_of_the_Netherlands
and the dissertation is called: Groningen, een stad Apart - Jan van den Broek, free accessibel by the research.rug section of the University of Groningen
 
Last edited:
  • 2Like
Reactions:
The language border was still south of lille at the time though. This all came to be because the french crown got these territories 22 years before the game start. Lille was basically founded by the counts of flanders around Hôtel de la salle.

I don't know if you even looked at your own page of Walloon you showed becuase it shows that that isn;t the latin language that was spoken there. It's picardi. Flanders and Wallonia regions don't border each other. There is picardi and brabant between them. The modern borders are very recent and vastlly different from the original historic interpretations.
I think you are right, it was only after the conflict in the early 1300’s that Flanders lost Rijsel, Dowaai and the other cities to France. I would argue one generation isn’t enough to have a cultural change, therefore the culture should still be Flemish.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
We had 3 options for the cultures:
1. Just go with Dutch, based on the language.
2. Portray the 4 regional variants/dialects of Middle Dutch (Flemish, Brabantic, Hollandic, Limburgic), plus Dutch Low Saxon.
3. Opting for an intermediate level, grouping Flemish, Brabantic, and Limburgic under Flemish, and Hollandic and Dutch Low Saxon groups under Dutch (as they also had a really close relationship). This is the one we decided to go to, for the moment.

We also discussed internally Overijssel and the Dutch Low Saxon region; as we have to review a bit the German cultures, it may change depending on that. And, in any case, we make this new series precisely to gather feedback, so we'll be reading opinions on this topic in the next few days. :)
I know I'm way late to the party but some quick opinions:
You 100% identified the correct options with this one, I never liked how North Brabant had a different culture than the rest of Brabant in EU4. I personally would be really interested in seeing you try option 2 but the way you split the cultures along the 'Grote rivieren' is definitely a good call.
Also, as someone noted, shouldn't it make more sense to include Kleef in Flemish? I'm not saying it's necessarily the correct option, but linguistically their local dialect is (or was at least) somewhat similar to Brabantian, so it's worth considering wile working on the German cultures.
I really love what I'm seeing! I'm very exited to be playing it!
 
I can't wait to see the Baltics, I really want to see the cultural setup of Livonia, I hope it won't be just Latvians and Livonians, but will also include Curonians and Semigallians. Both of them should eventually assimilate into Latvians as the game progresses.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
At this time, the religion in Kingdom of Bosnia was majority Bogomilist. The so called "Bosnian church" was proclaimed to be heretic, by the pope. There were a couple of Crusades organized by the Pope in order to exterminate them. This might spice up the Balkan Peninsula a Little Bit.
 
At this time, the religion in Kingdom of Bosnia was majority Bogomilist. The so called "Bosnian church" was proclaimed to be heretic, by the pope. There were a couple of Crusades organized by the Pope in order to exterminate them. This might spice up the Balkan Peninsula a Little Bit.
The Bosnian Church was not bogomilist, and bogomilists were not a majority in the area.

Didn't stop both the Orthodox and Catholic churches to declare the Bosnian Church heretical, but nonetheless.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
First my pretended serious reply.
At the right edge of the map there is the polity of Arnsberg with the locations Arnsberg and Meschede.
I think Arnsberg deserves to be hilly (and the product might be wood).

Ok ok ok but I have to know: it is ripping me apart: :eek:
Is the next location after Arnsberg and Meschede BRILON.;)
For obvious reasons that would make or break EU5. :cool:
The HRE-map of the last TT shows a partially Brilon-esk blob-let as part of Colone, where it should be. And as the Archbishop of Clone gave Brlon city-rights in 1220 for Border-protection-purposes, it all woud add up. :p

But does it? Is there Brilon and is it releasable? Please please please ...o_O:rolleyes::oops::rolleyes:o_O
 
I love the level of detail, especially regarding locations!

Please double check typos, though. Especially when it comes to "Umlauts", so far I see:
* Düsseldorf
* Mönchengladbach
* Moers (yes, with oe)
* Prüm
* Düren

But all in all I am very excited. Thanks to the team!
 
First my pretended serious reply.
At the right edge of the map there is the polity of Arnsberg with the locations Arnsberg and Meschede.
I think Arnsberg deserves to be hilly (and the product might be wood).

Ok ok ok but I have to know: it is ripping me apart: :eek:
Is the next location after Arnsberg and Meschede BRILON.;)
For obvious reasons that would make or break EU5. :cool:
The HRE-map of the last TT shows a partially Brilon-esk blob-let as part of Colone, where it should be. And as the Archbishop of Clone gave Brlon city-rights in 1220 for Border-protection-purposes, it all woud add up. :p
Name checks out.
I guess since Meschede is east of Arnsberg, and Waldeck is east of your mystery location, then Brilon would make sense in between as the location name. The only other options I can see would be Winterberg, Medebach or Stadtberg.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Hey guys, today is Friday, so we gonna get a TM2 in CET 15:00?
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Ok ok ok but I have to know: it is ripping me apart: :eek:
Oh, are we proud and nitpicky now? :D

Then I could add that Cologne owned some land right south of the river Ruhr aswell (right where the thick black line next to Mark's "k" is). The counts of Mark tried to conquer it many times. My home town was destroyed several times by them.

But I think it's okay that the province of Soest ends north of the Ruhr. That keeps the possibility to depict the end of the Soester Fehde (Soest Feud) 1449, where the city of Soest got independent from the Archbishop and had more freedom than any free imperial city. And I can stay a thick black line instead of being forced to be part of Soest. :p
 
Before we move on to the Iberian peninsula tomorrow, I wanted to give a few extra suggestions to improve historicity and roleplay possibility.
Zooming in on the map, it becomes obvious a lot of the territory borders are traced on a municipality map of the Netherlands, which makes it easy to draw up the suggestions I have, and in turn make it easier for the map maker to implement them.

Firstly the mistakes (as pointed out by others).
  • Arnhem is located inside the current Apeldoorn territory, renaming Apeldoorn to Arnhem would fix that. The original Arnhem should be renamed Wageningen.
  • Coevorden is located inside the current Emmen territory, renaming Emmen to Coevorden would fix that. The original Coevorden should be renamed to Meppel.
  • Roermond is located inside the current Weert territory, renaming Weert to Roermond would fix that. The original Roermond should be renamed Heinsberg.
  • The border between South Holland and Brabant is based on the greatest size of Holland but seems to overshoot a little bit. I would reduce the chunk out of Brabant bij half and give that area to Dordrecht instead of Rotterdam (which it had closer ties with).
Secondly renames (When a city was more influential during the time period than the original one):
  • Rename ‘s-Gravenhage to Delft.
  • Rename Doetinchem to Bredevoort.
  • Rename Enschede to Oldenzaal.
  • Rename Wedde to Winschoten.
  • Rename Makkum to Stavoren.
Thirdly border changes and additions (picture comparing current state to proposed state):
Friesland: View attachment 1133877
These changes are mostly based on Pbhuh and other's posts on the province.

Groningen:
View attachment 1133878

Reshaped Groningen so that Utrecht players can reclaim the territory without ahistorically bordering the North Sea.

Overijssel:
View attachment 1133879Retraced the borders to give Oldenzaal (Twente) its historic borders. Also splitting Kampen from Zwolle makes sense as Kampen was a very important harbour at the start of the game (the Rotterdam of the middle ages).

Gelderland:
View attachment 1133880
Shrunk the western border of Bredevoort (previous Doetinchem) to give more area Nijmegen and exchanged land between Bredevoort and Zutphen, creating similar sizes. Divided Nijmegen in half and renamed the western part Tiel. Tiel could produce wheat.

Utrecht:
View attachment 1133888Added the province Amersfoort.

Brabant:
View attachment 1133882Redrew the borders to more accurately match the borders of the old Duchy of Brabant, mainly the subdivisions of the 's-Hertogenbosch quarter. Reduced the reach of Holland into Brabant. Split off Tilburg from 's-Hertogenbosch and Breda, a very important centre for Dutch wool and split off Bergen op Zoom from Breda, which should probably produce salt. Adding these two provinces would equalize the amount of provinces Brabant has with neighbouring Flanders.

South Holland:
View attachment 1133890
Redrew the borders to put Dordrecht back in its borders and create more historical and better looking borders.

North Holland:
View attachment 1133885Split the province of Haarlem out of Amsterdam. It could produce sturdy grains to reference its beer production.

To be honest, I'm really happy with how the map turned out, but with these changes it would be even better imo!;)
I would like to make a small comment on the border changes you made for Friesland, namely about the location of Heerenveen. While Heerenveen is now one of the biggest settlements in Fryslân/Friesland, it didn’t exist back in 1337. It would make more sense to either give part of the Stavoren location to ‘Heerenveen’ and name this location Sloten (not Heerenveen), name it Wolvega instead of Heerenveen or just name it Sânwâlden/Zevenwouden, which is how the region used to be known (so a region name instead of a city name)
 
Hi folks! Just wanted to let you know that our CD Team has gone over all the feedback on this thread and that as I mentioned in today's Tinto Maps, over 70 action points were implemented thanks to your feedback. Thanks, and cheers!
 
  • 18Love
  • 9Like
Reactions: