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Tinto Maps #1 - 10th of May 2024 - Low Countries

Hello everybody, and welcome to the first post of Tinto Maps! This is a new weekly series that we will be running about the top-secret game Project Caesar.

Let me introduce myself before I continue, as some of you may get to know me from the development of the latest EUIV DLCs, but I might not be as well-known to everyone as Johan. I’m Pavía, the Content Design Lead at Paradox Tinto, which I joined in 2021. Before becoming a videogame developer, my background was as a Historian, which led me to work on a PhD. in Medieval History (fool me!), which I finished in 2020. Besides that, I’ve spent several thousands of hours of my life playing Paradox GSGs since I discovered and started playing Europa Universalis 20 years ago, in 2004.

What this new series will be about is quite straightforward: each week I will be sharing with you maps of a new different region, so you have an outlook of them and we are able to receive early feedback (because as you may already know from Johan’s Tinto Talks, there is still a lot of WIP stuff ongoing).

About this feedback, we’d like you to take into account a couple of things. The first is that we’ve worked really hard to gather the best sources of information available to craft the best possible map; we used GIS tools with several layers of historical map sources from academic works, geographical data, administrative data, etc., to help us ensure the desired quality. So we would appreciate getting specific suggestions backed by these types of sources, as others (let’s say, a Wikipedia map or YouTube video with no references) may not be reliable enough. The second thing to comment on is that sometimes a certain decision we made was an interpretation over an unclear source, while sometimes we have just plainly made some errors when crafting the map (which on a 30,000 location map is a normal thing, I guess). I’ll let you know when any of these happen, and I’m also going to ask for your understanding when an error or bug is found and confirmed as such.

With those forewords said, let’s start with today’s region: the Low Countries! This is what the political map looks like:

Countries.png

The regional situation in 1337. The counties of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeeland are ruled by William of Avesnes, who is married to Joanna, daughter of Duke John III of Brabant. Another John, the Duke of Luxembourg, might be the strongest power, as he is also the King of Bohemia. The County of Flanders is the wealthiest country in the region, controlling such important cities as Brugge and Ghent. Up in the north, we have other interesting countries, such as the Bishopric of Utrecht or the Republic of Frisia (you might notice that we're using a dynamic custom country name for them, 'Frisian Freedom').

And here we have the locations:

Locations.png

We had a fun bug for some time - Antwerpen didn’t have any pixels connected to the sea, which we found because we couldn’t build any type of port building there. There’s a happy ending, as the bug has already been corrected, and Antwerpen can finally have a proper port!

Provinces:

Provinces.jpg


Terrain (Climate, Topography, and Vegetation):

Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

We are aware that the Netherlands looked differently in the 14th century, as several land reclamations took place during the Late Medieval and Early Modern periods, but we are using a 20th-century version of the map for the sake of consistency. Most of the regions throughout the world would look quite different from nowadays, and documenting those changes (especially the coastline shapes) would be a non-trivial problem to resolve. As a side note, we already removed Flevoland from it, and have already identified some other modern ones that slipped through and we'll eventually remove them, as well.

Cultures:

Cultures.png

The stripes mean that there are pops of different culture inhabiting in those location. Also, the German and French cultures are WIP, we’ll show you a proper version on later Tinto Maps.

Religions:

Religions.png

Not many religions here yet, although there will be interesting religious stuff happening eventually…

Raw Goods:

Goods.png

Goods get regularly swapped around here and there to have a balance between geographical and historical accuracy, and gameplay purposes. So take this as the far-from-final current version of them.

And an additional map for this week:

Markets.png

We reinstated a Low Countries market centered on Antwerpen, after doing some balance tweaks that made it more viable.

And these are the maps for today! I hope that you have a nice weekend, and next Friday, we will travel down south, to Iberia!
 

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Hi folks! Just wanted to let you know that our CD Team has gone over all the feedback on this thread and that as I mentioned in today's Tinto Maps, over 70 action points were implemented thanks to your feedback. Thanks, and cheers!
Blessed. I absolutely LOVE that you're telling us how much feedback is affecting the final game. That's so incredibly exciting!
 
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I would like to make a small comment on the border changes you made for Friesland, namely about the location of Heerenveen. While Heerenveen is now one of the biggest settlements in Fryslân/Friesland, it didn’t exist back in 1337. It would make more sense to either give part of the Stavoren location to ‘Heerenveen’ and name this location Sloten (not Heerenveen), name it Wolvega instead of Heerenveen or just name it Sânwâlden/Zevenwouden, which is how the region used to be known (so a region name instead of a city name)
I fully agree with your comment, I tried cutting Sloten out of Stavoren but (personally) I found that left Stavoren and Harlingen too small compared to neighbouring Leeuwarden and Heerenveen. I was debating between Wolvega (downside being that they were irrelevant for the rest of the game but historically correct, or naming it Heerenveen which is anachronistic at the start of the game but would appear 200 years in and be recognizable. I'd agree with Wolvega being better, and I'll edit my suggestion. And add a Sloten location as an alternative. Thanks for thinking along! <3
 
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I understand why the "Frisean Freedom" is depicted this way but it might be better separated into many small chieftains (historic name) who only hold 1 location. The Friesean history was full of different chiefs warring each other. The "Frisean Freedom" was in decline in the 14th century, leading it its end and the region being increasingly dominated by outsiders. Technichally, the Frisean Freedon only really ended for real with the bubonic plague but it already was in decline. Maybe an event during the plague, splitting it up into many small chiefdoms who might be in an additional international organization could depict this?

But much more important: Historic borders:
While Leer as a settlement already existed in 1337, the borders of the region seem quite wrong and do mostly reflect mordern Landkreise (Districts) (the Landkreis Leer was foundet exactly 548 years after the start of the game - 1st of April 1885).
The borders should reflect something like this map:
or this one:

Many of the names listed there are still in use, for example "Harlingerland" (for the Landkreis Wittmund), "Moormerland" (for a municipality in the Landkreis Leer) or Rheiderland (which today is split between the Landkreis Leer and the dutch Province of Grislân [Frisean name, "Grönnen/Grunnen/Groningen" in other languages])
 
I understand why the "Frisean Freedom" is depicted this way but it might be better separated into many small chieftains (historic name) who only hold 1 location. The Friesean history was full of different chiefs warring each other. The "Frisean Freedom" was in decline in the 14th century, leading it its end and the region being increasingly dominated by outsiders. Technichally, the Frisean Freedon only really ended for real with the bubonic plague but it already was in decline. Maybe an event during the plague, splitting it up into many small chiefdoms who might be in an additional international organization could depict this?

But much more important: Historic borders:
While Leer as a settlement already existed in 1337, the borders of the region seem quite wrong and do mostly reflect mordern Landkreise (Districts) (the Landkreis Leer was foundet exactly 548 years after the start of the game - 1st of April 1885).
The borders should reflect something like this map:
or this one:

Many of the names listed there are still in use, for example "Harlingerland" (for the Landkreis Wittmund), "Moormerland" (for a municipality in the Landkreis Leer) or Rheiderland (which today is split between the Landkreis Leer and the dutch Province of Grislân [Frisean name, "Grönnen/Grunnen/Groningen" in other languages])

Hey, you may be interested in my suggestions for East Frisia here.
 
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1716019744403.png


You have Castelree as a part of the Breda location on your map, this can be correct as the agrements that resulted in the current Belgian-Dutch border around Hoogstraten/Turnhout happend in the 12th century.
But it also means that Baarle-Hertog enclave should exsist as it came to be because of the same treaties that created the border circled on the map.. Can you add a Turnhout enclave in the breda location (only has to be one or two pixels) as an easter egg?

Source: The museum Historian of Hoogstraten is a friend of me.
 
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The language border was still south of lille at the time though. This all came to be because the french crown got these territories 22 years before the game start. Lille was basically founded by the counts of flanders around Hôtel de la salle.
It's not because a city was founded on the orders of the count of Flanders (which we are not completely certain of), that the inhabitants therefore spoke a Germanic derived langauge. Also, from the 12th century onwards, were quite certain that main court language of the Flemish counts had shifted to French, with Dutch in a supporting role.

I don't know if you even looked at your own page of Walloon you showed becuase it shows that that isn;t the latin language that was spoken there. It's picardi. Flanders and Wallonia regions don't border each other. There is picardi and brabant between them. The modern borders are very recent and vastlly different from the original historic interpretations.
As I explained in my previous post, but you somehow completely ignored, Walloon, or at least the Middle Dutch term Walsch or Waelsch, had a different meaning in the Middle Ages than what we apply it to nowadays. In the 13th and 14th centuries for example, the term was applied to all speakers of the various Latin-derived languages spoken in the vicinity of the Low Countries, so mainly the langue d'oïl variants, such as Francien, Picard and what we nowadays call Walloon. A few examples to illustrate my point are the 14th century conversation booklet Livre des mestiers/Bouc vanden Ambachten and the 13th century poem Van den vos Reynaerde.

The first one is a conversation manual that was written in the city of Bruges and was meant to help the Flemish inhabitants of Bruges learn to speak Middle French (since Bruges was a part of the Kingdom of France) and vice versa. The two languages are called "rommans et flamenc" (Roman and Flemish) in Middle French, and "Walsch ende Vlaemsch" (Walloon and Flemish) in Middle Dutch. Since the Middle French half of the manual was mainly intended for people who lived in the Kingdom of France or the neighbouring county of Hainaut, it therefore stands to reason that the 'Walsch' language referred to a much broader area than just the language group we nowadays call Walloon.

The second one is a famous epic poem written in Middle Dutch in the 13th century. It's based on fables that had previously been written down in Middle French ('Walsch'), and in the text itself the author acknowledges that his text was meant to retell the story to a Middle Dutch ('Dietsch') speaking audience:

[...]
Dat die avonture van Reynaerde
In Dietsche onghemaket bleven
Die Willem niet hevet vulscreven
Dat hi die vijte van Reynaerde soucken
Ende hise na den Walschen boucken
In Dietsche dus hevet begonnen
[...]
[...]
that the tales of Reynaert
remained unwritten in Dutch
which Arnout has not finishedthat he had the life looked for
and, following the French books,
he began it in Dutch as follows.
[...]
The 'Walschen boucken' (French books) the author refers to are not books that were written specifically in the Walloon of Liège or Namur, but rather to books that were written in the broader Middle French language area.
 
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Hi, hope this is not too late, but the Hessian cultural range goes too far north. Very petty correction, but I know my local history and wish to have it be represented properly :)
The province Olpe roughly corresponds with the historical "Ämter Olpe, Bilstein and Waldenburg" and the modern "Kreis Olpe". Basically the Cologne Exclave south of Arnsberg. I am from that region and it is the southernmost fringe of the Saxon settlement and hosts even today Lower German dialects. It is not Hessian. Same would go for Meschede and the exclave of Cologne East of Arnsberg (which is not on the map but I assume it is also marked Hessia). All still Lower German.
 
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I realize I am a bit late here, but I tried to do this sort of research once upon a time for Meiou and Taxes. I dug through my archives. Here is what I wrote down for Low Countries (this is from "Regions, Institutions, and Agrarian Change" by Rosemary Hopcroft)

-Flanders began concentrating in butter and cheese in 14th and 15th centuries. Holland and Frisia followed suit a century later.
-Focus on cereal crops declined.
-Oleaginous plant cultivation began around Holland and Utrecht.
-Rape and mustard were harvested in southeastern Flanders.
-Hop growing appeared in Holland and northern Brabant around 1360, then soon after in Brussels.
-The brewing industry expanded in Delft, Gouda, and Haarlem.
-Fruits and vegetables became common.
-Horse breeding developed in Frisia.
-Linen industry underwent rapid development. Flax growing is mentioned more frequently.
-This stimulated the dye industry. Large-scale cultivation of madder in the Zeeland Islands and northern Brabant started in the 14th century.
-Salt from the Bay of Bourgneuf was used for preservation of herring.
-Beer made in Holland exported to southern Netherlands and Baltic regions.

My recommendation would be an echo of someone earlier in the thread - I would model fishing differently. Perhaps have an urban building for fishing, then move fishing "deposits" onto the actual water locations. This would open up more room for agricultural locations. Holland and Flanders should have some livestock locations (for butter/cheese). Frisia should have livestock (for butter/cheese) and horses. Zeeland and northern Brabant should have dye. There should be seed oil in some locations around southeastern Flanders, Holland and Utrecht. I would distribute fiber plants and hops (or whatever models inputs for beer) liberally throughout the region.

--------------

Most importantly, there is a significant industry that is completely missing from the map - peat harvesting. This was a major industry. There are multiple pages devoted to peat harvesting in "The First Modern Economy" by Jan de Vries". Back when I was doing historical research, this book was regularly cited, so I think it is a major work (I'll leave it for real historians to comment on that). Once upon a time, I had a map of peat harvesting regions that (I think) included the quality of the peat - not all peat is ideal for harvesting. Anyway, the peat harvesting was a big deal - it provided the low countries region with a form of cheap energy, it created an economic incentive for drainage projects, etc. It should be modelled in some way.
 
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I have a small feedback
In Duchy of Brabant are there small independent counties.
One of them is Boxtel (Buycstele). They got there indepentence fully in 1295.
In 1356 became a Imperial City under leadership of the emperor. Marie Buycstele was the lady who got the loan letter
Boxtel hold their independent untin 1794.
Boxtel hold the title of barony/ religious Imperial city
Source: Heemkunde Boxtel - History department
Heemkundeboxtel.nl Rijksheerlijkheid-Boxtel
Heemkundeboxtel.nl Stamboom Heren and vrouwen Boxtel
 
I want to support peat.
...
--------------

Most importantly, there is a significant industry that is completely missing from the map - peat harvesting. This was a major industry. There are multiple pages devoted to peat harvesting in "The First Modern Economy" by Jan de Vries". Back when I was doing historical research, this book was regularly cited, so I think it is a major work (I'll leave it for real historians to comment on that). Once upon a time, I had a map of peat harvesting regions that (I think) included the quality of the peat - not all peat is ideal for harvesting. Anyway, the peat harvesting was a big deal - it provided the low countries region with a form of cheap energy, it created an economic incentive for drainage projects, etc. It should be modelled in some way.

In all seriousness: there are several areas where because of lack of woods and thus wood (pun intended), peat was used. Whether that reaches the level of main-resource, I am not sure.

But for example lsrge areas of Scotland heated with peat. Parts of northern and central Germany supplemented with peat.

And last but not least a lot of whisky-production used peat.
 
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Will Bentheim become a province? It would be interesting to have a Dutch speaking province in Germany like that. The size should be big enough compared to the smaller provinces. It's just underneath east Frisia, at the border.
 
Ok so two more things as I see the feedback is extremely welcomed (and that’s a really good thing):

1) I think Loon is split up wrong. Lommel never really was an important city to begin with, and it was more associated with Brabant instead of Loon if I’m not mistaking. The three areas should be Hasselt, Maas area and Loon proper in my opinion.
2) I would replace Turnhout with Lier in Brabant. Both cities were of similar size, but Lier had more major events like the wedding of Philip and Joanna (unification of Spain) and the Betrayal of Lier in the 80 years war (setting up the Siege and Fall of Antwerp).

Just gonna add some sources on this now that I have some more time

- For Lommel being a part of Brabant, I refer to https://inventaris.onroerenderfgoed.be/themas/13307

- For Lier instead of Turnhout I refer to Aerts, Erik, Herman Van der Wee (2019). - Geschiedenis van Lier. Welvaart en samenleving van het ontstaan van de stad tot de Eerste Wereldoorlog. Also a small correction to what I wrote above: Philip and Joanna's marriage was more about the Habsburgs getting into the Spanish crown as technicaly Philip's parents already unified spain. But still their son Charles V was kind of a big deal ;)

Some other important stuff on Lier I missed earlier: It was the site of marriage agreement between Edward II of England and Filippa of Flanders, after which the French king Philip IV intervened and kidnapped her to Paris so the marriage couldn't happen. Just before the game start though, but it could be inspriation for a Anglo-Flemish alliance against France? Lier was also where Christian II of Denmark went into exile after the throne was taken from him.



Then I also wanted to talk about Mechelen (assuming feedback is still open after we moved to Iberia @Pavía ?), because some stuff happened around the startdate no one brought up yet. Until 1333 the Lordship of Mechelen was a vassal of the Prince-Bishops of Liège. Brabant wanted to annex it though, so the Bishop sold it to the County of Flanders instead, while keeping the tax incomes himself (because, you know, HRE gonna HRE.). But Brabant didn't give up and on March 31, 1337 (yup, that's one day before the start date), they signed a treaty that would split the Lordship of Mechelen between Flanders and Brabant. Only in 1347 was the Lordship of Mechelen a full vassal of Brabant.

And yes, I'm considering you looked at this before, didn't want to code this mess and just gave it to Brabant for simplicity :p
 
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I would like to make a small comment on the border changes you made for Friesland, namely about the location of Heerenveen. While Heerenveen is now one of the biggest settlements in Fryslân/Friesland, it didn’t exist back in 1337. It would make more sense to either give part of the Stavoren location to ‘Heerenveen’ and name this location Sloten (not Heerenveen), name it Wolvega instead of Heerenveen or just name it Sânwâlden/Zevenwouden, which is how the region used to be known (so a region name instead of a city name)
To add to this point, Stavoren should definitely be called Sneek as Stavoren wasn't very important between 1337 and 1836 (although it was relatively important before this period I believe), here are its and Sneeks numbers of inhabitants in this time period (found in 'Inwoneraantallen van Nederlandse steden ca. 1300-1800' by Lourens and Lucassen). Stavoren: 1400: 500, 1560: 800, 1670: 1400, 1689: 1448, 1744: 1378, 1795: 1236, Sneek: 1400: 1000, 1560: 3000, 1670: 4300, 1689: 4370, 1744: 3746, 1795: 4893. Although size of a city doesn't necessarily make it more important, this difference is very lare, Sneeks population was generally between two and four times as large as Stavorens, I feel like it would be strange to call this area Stavoren and not Sneek when the difference in population was this big.
 
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To add to this point, Stavoren should definitely be called Sneek as Stavoren wasn't very important between 1337 and 1836 (although it was relatively important before this period I believe), here are its and Sneeks numbers of inhabitants in this time period (found in 'Inwoneraantallen van Nederlandse steden ca. 1300-1800' by Lourens and Lucassen). Stavoren: 1400: 500, 1560: 800, 1670: 1400, 1689: 1448, 1744: 1378, 1795: 1236, Sneek: 1400: 1000, 1560: 3000, 1670: 4300, 1689: 4370, 1744: 3746, 1795: 4893. Although size of a city doesn't necessarily make it more important, this difference is very lare, Sneeks population was generally between two and four times as large as Stavorens, I feel like it would be strange to call this area Stavoren and not Sneek when the difference in population was this big.
That’s pretty interesting, I’m from that area myself and always thought Sneek didn’t become bigger then Stavoren until around 1400-1450 (so definitely after 1337), the kinda ‘Golden Era’ of Sneek and that for most of the Middle Ages Stavoren was more relevant. But knowing the population estimates Sneek is definitively the most logical options for the location