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Tinto Maps #1 - 10th of May 2024 - Low Countries

Hello everybody, and welcome to the first post of Tinto Maps! This is a new weekly series that we will be running about the top-secret game Project Caesar.

Let me introduce myself before I continue, as some of you may get to know me from the development of the latest EUIV DLCs, but I might not be as well-known to everyone as Johan. I’m Pavía, the Content Design Lead at Paradox Tinto, which I joined in 2021. Before becoming a videogame developer, my background was as a Historian, which led me to work on a PhD. in Medieval History (fool me!), which I finished in 2020. Besides that, I’ve spent several thousands of hours of my life playing Paradox GSGs since I discovered and started playing Europa Universalis 20 years ago, in 2004.

What this new series will be about is quite straightforward: each week I will be sharing with you maps of a new different region, so you have an outlook of them and we are able to receive early feedback (because as you may already know from Johan’s Tinto Talks, there is still a lot of WIP stuff ongoing).

About this feedback, we’d like you to take into account a couple of things. The first is that we’ve worked really hard to gather the best sources of information available to craft the best possible map; we used GIS tools with several layers of historical map sources from academic works, geographical data, administrative data, etc., to help us ensure the desired quality. So we would appreciate getting specific suggestions backed by these types of sources, as others (let’s say, a Wikipedia map or YouTube video with no references) may not be reliable enough. The second thing to comment on is that sometimes a certain decision we made was an interpretation over an unclear source, while sometimes we have just plainly made some errors when crafting the map (which on a 30,000 location map is a normal thing, I guess). I’ll let you know when any of these happen, and I’m also going to ask for your understanding when an error or bug is found and confirmed as such.

With those forewords said, let’s start with today’s region: the Low Countries! This is what the political map looks like:

Countries.png

The regional situation in 1337. The counties of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeeland are ruled by William of Avesnes, who is married to Joanna, daughter of Duke John III of Brabant. Another John, the Duke of Luxembourg, might be the strongest power, as he is also the King of Bohemia. The County of Flanders is the wealthiest country in the region, controlling such important cities as Brugge and Ghent. Up in the north, we have other interesting countries, such as the Bishopric of Utrecht or the Republic of Frisia (you might notice that we're using a dynamic custom country name for them, 'Frisian Freedom').

And here we have the locations:

Locations.png

We had a fun bug for some time - Antwerpen didn’t have any pixels connected to the sea, which we found because we couldn’t build any type of port building there. There’s a happy ending, as the bug has already been corrected, and Antwerpen can finally have a proper port!

Provinces:

Provinces.jpg


Terrain (Climate, Topography, and Vegetation):

Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

We are aware that the Netherlands looked differently in the 14th century, as several land reclamations took place during the Late Medieval and Early Modern periods, but we are using a 20th-century version of the map for the sake of consistency. Most of the regions throughout the world would look quite different from nowadays, and documenting those changes (especially the coastline shapes) would be a non-trivial problem to resolve. As a side note, we already removed Flevoland from it, and have already identified some other modern ones that slipped through and we'll eventually remove them, as well.

Cultures:

Cultures.png

The stripes mean that there are pops of different culture inhabiting in those location. Also, the German and French cultures are WIP, we’ll show you a proper version on later Tinto Maps.

Religions:

Religions.png

Not many religions here yet, although there will be interesting religious stuff happening eventually…

Raw Goods:

Goods.png

Goods get regularly swapped around here and there to have a balance between geographical and historical accuracy, and gameplay purposes. So take this as the far-from-final current version of them.

And an additional map for this week:

Markets.png

We reinstated a Low Countries market centered on Antwerpen, after doing some balance tweaks that made it more viable.

And these are the maps for today! I hope that you have a nice weekend, and next Friday, we will travel down south, to Iberia!
 

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Hi!
Do you plan to make the map more 3D? Now it seems to be 2D, just like in Victoria 3. In my opinion, if a map is as flat as these maps in the pictures, then it looks simply less medieval and more like it is a map from later eras...
 
Alright, here are my suggestions for the trade goods. I ended up filling the entire map, I obviously don't expect everything to be copied like that, but once I started suggesting some goods, then that necessarily meant some other goods had to move around.
When it comes to things like crops, I don't think you'll find many good sources for exactly how they were distributed anyway so it's pretty arbitrary.

I made a map with all the suggestions:
8fCqvg1.png


And here the details:

Gold, Silver, Tin, Lead, Copper, Saltpeter:

Not much in this area, just one location I would suggest.

Limbourg: Lead. There is a town called Bleyberg/Blieberg/So-on-Mont-d'-Plomb (meaning lead mountain) in the area, modern name Plombières. While lead wasn't mined at the start of the game, mining was done throughout most of the games timespan. Since the Low Countries don't have a lot of mines other than coal and iron, I think it's the better good than just another lumber location.


Iron and Coal:

We are dealing with the most important iron ore location in Europe here, although it wasn't hugely important yet in the game's time period. The Minette deposits' insane richness only really became relevant during industrialization, when large amounts of ore were needed for industrial steel production, but I think it's a waste not to give all the minette locations iron. They are famous for it and iron was produced in the area since Roman times. Belgium even exhausted its share of them by the mid 19th century.

For reference, I have roughly drawn the location of the Minette deposit on the map, sourced from a 1921 report on iron ore reserves in Europe.
txxjeB3.png

Thionville, Luxembourg, Arlon, Longeville(?) and Wallerfangen: My suggestion is iron for all of them. Thionville's coal should go to Saarbrücken instead. Wallerfangen could have coal as well, but I think iron was more important.

The region along the Meuse (so locations Mons, Wavre, Namur, Liège, Walcourt, Dinant and whatever that small font long name location next to it is) were one of the most industrialized regions in the world at the end of the game's timeframe, highly industrialized already around 1800. So there definitely should be some potential there.

Namur is shown to have marble production, but I think it should be iron. It became famous for its method of iron smelting, which was called the Walloon method and spread as far as Sweden. Unless there is some specific reason for marble production there? Iron could be in Liège as well, but I don't think it needs to be that concentrated and alum seems fine for industrial production.

Mons is the location of the borinage coal field. Very rich, but how does the game model coal only being used as an alternative to firewood (which became quite expensive in some regions) for most of the time period? Until the puddling process and steam engines, there really isn't a special use for coal and those only happen in the 18th century.
I think Mons, Wavre, Douai and Lens would be coal locations, but only later in the game. I don't believe coal here mattered before the inventions mentioned above.
Coal should also be present in Maastricht and Lommel later on. See this map for coal locations in the Low Countries.
BTW, Arras is shown to have coal, but I don't know why. The coal is clearly further north.

We could really use some clarification on if coal is supposed to exist from the start or be added later in the game. If the latter, then there would only be few locations with coal at the start, maybe some in England, Saarland and the Ruhr area, were it was actually used as a replacement for firewood.


Alum and Mercury:

Pretty hard to find any sources for production of alum or similar materials, as they aren't as important as stuff like iron.
Alum in Liège as a mining center of the period is fine, I think, especially since Flanders needs it. Most of the alum supply of the period was imported, though.
Doesn't look like there was any significant mercury production in the area.
Edit: After some more research on alum, it being produced in Liège is absolutely correct! It was only established 250 years into the game, but it was pretty important. I want to add that coal production actually was very important in Liège at the start of the game.


Pearls, Medicine, Amber:

Honestly I wouldn't really know what medicaments represents or why pearls are in the Low Countries. While I believe some amber can be found at the North Sea, it wasn't significant.


Clay and Sand:

It looks like the Netherlands do have some good clay resources, even after all the polder business, so they probably should have at least one location with clay. There are also old clay mines in Belgium around Kortrijk which gives its name to a geological formation that mainly consists of clay.
I suggest Kortrijk, s'-Hertogenbosch and Cuijk for clay.
There is actually a 'desert' with sandy dunes south of s'-Hertogenbosch which was caused by excessive peat and clay extraction from the marshland in the area, so it's good that this location doesn't have farmlands vegetation. Peat mining was even outlawed in some areas, as it became too dangerous.

This begs the question: how will draining the marshland be represented in the game? You could start some of those marsh locations out with clay deposits, but if they are made into flatland, they could get rye and vegetables as resource.

North Brabant is generally very sandy in terms of geology, so maybe this is somewhere where sand production could happen?
Sand was widely available anyway, and the limiting factor for glass production was fuel, which is why glass was often made close to a forest. So sand is kind of a filler good.
I suggest sand for Breda, Dunkirk, Dordrecht and Makkum.


Salt:

Zeeland, famous for its salt production for a long time, so Middelburg having it is correct. Zeeuws-Vlaanderen, so Hulst also produced salt. I don't think there should be too much salt production around, though, because Dutch traders actually sailed to Portugal to get salt from the famous Setubal deposit and sold it in Northern Europe. Maybe one more in Dokkum, and that's it?


Marble and Stone:

I couldn't find any evidence for marble or alabaster in the Low Countries. I found a German article talking about a sculpture made from alabaster in the Low Countries, but the material was found to have been imported from Franconia through the Rhine and Main.
There is the Carrières du Hainaut quarry, which produces a certain type of limestone, but does that count as being special enough? If so, then Mons should have marble, if not then stone.

Stone looks like another filler good mostly for hilly/mountainous locations. Not really a strength of the aptly named Low Countries.
Other than the Mons location mentioned above, I suggest stone for Oudenaarde and the unreadable location north of Bastogne.


Dyes:

Madder was mentioned in this thread before. Definitely a dye that was extensively grown in the Low Countries. Zeeland should probably have salt, though, so I suggest dyes for Rotterdam, Den Haag and Ghent.


Wine:

In my opinion, there shouldn't be wine here, as we're coming out of the warm period at the start of the game and making wine wasn't really viable for most of the game's timeframe in this region.


Fiber Crops and Wool:

I saw some people suggesting that there shouldn't be much wool production here, because they imported English wool. But there was still some domestic wool production, of course, and a lot of flax production as well. This production center for cloth just had THAT much demand.
For wool I would suggest Thouin, Walcourt, Maastricht and Weert.
For flax (fiber crops) production I'd suggest Sint Niklaas, Harderwijk, Doetinchem, Zuthpen and Enschede.


Rye (Sturdy Grains) and Wheat:

I know from international statistics published around 1900 that wheat production in the Netherlands was 22% of rye production, while for Belgium it was 61%, but I have no idea how accurately this translates to this game's time period. It does suggest to me that rye should be the predominant crop in this region.

So, for wheat I would suggest Cassel, Ypres, Lille, Tournai, Douai, Valenciennes, Wavre, Verne, Brussels, Nijmegen and Arnhem.
For sturdy grains I would suggest Utrecht, Apeldoorn, Deventer, Zwolle, Ostende, Leuven, Mechelen, Turnhout, Lommel, Maasmechelen, Hasselt and Eindhoven.


Horses

Now that's a filler good if I've ever seen one. You can have those anywhere where you have livestock, but I'd assume horses 'production' to be more common around population centers.
For horses I suggest Antwerpen and Helmond

Lumber

Definitely something for the Ardennes. Not all that much lumber in the rest of the Low Countries.
I suggest Venlo, Bouillon, Bastogne, St. Vith and Stavelot.


Wild Game

Also something for the forested Ardennes, but not much.
I suggest to keep it in Neufchateau and replace the fur in Wiltz


Fish

Mostly makes sense as a good for cities, in my opinion, since that's where the fishermen and their guilds would be,
So I suggest Bruges, Leiden, Amsterdam, Alkmaar, Hoorn, Harlingen, Groningen and Appingedam.


Livestock

Should obviously be mostly in location that aren't that great for crops, but there is always going to be a certain mix.
I suggest Dinant, Gouda, Assen, Emmen, and Wedde.


Legumes

An alternative farming good, I don't think there are going to be any historical sources showing a significant differentiation between growing legumes and other crops, so again it's pretty arbitrary.
I suggest Leeuwerden, Aalst and Coevorden.
Very detailed feedback, we'll definitely take into account, thanks!
 
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The location of Remscheid next to Düsseldorf in the County of Berg should be named Lennep. Remscheid became a city in 1808, while Lennep, today a part of Remscheid, received city rights in the 13th century. Lennep also had a wall! And later it became part of the Hanseatic League, because of its location at a trade and pilgrim route.
It's also hilly here. Today Remscheid's nickname is "Seestadt auf dem Berge" ("seaside town on the hill") because of the worldwide trade relations of its tool industry.
 
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The location of Remscheid next to Düsseldorf in the County of Berg should be named Lennep. Remscheid became a city in 1808, while Lennep, today a part of Remscheid, received city rights in the 13th century. Lennep also had a wall! And later it became part of the Hanseatic League, because of its location at a trade and pilgrim route.
It's also hilly here. Today Remscheid's nickname is "Seestadt auf dem Berge" ("seaside town on the hill") because of the worldwide trade relations of its tool industry.
Agree with not using Remscheid.
Lennep is a decent choice, however I think Wipperfürth would make more sense. It is the oldest city in the County of Berg (it is referred to as a city already in the 12th and definitely received city rights in 1225 - before the other three capitals of the county, Ratingen, Düsseldorf and Lennep. It became the site of a mint and a member of the Hansa in the 14th century, with merchants from Wipperfürth recorded in Stockholm, Dorpat, Malmö, Novgorod, Reval and Lübeck, Of course, it also had a city wall. Perhaps of some interest to a game modelling military conflicts and conquests, Wipperfürth was disputed between Berg and Cologne and occupied by the Archbishopric for a while in the early 15th century.
And unlike Lennep, it was not burned down and depopulated during PC's timespan (Lennep was in 1746, although it was rebuilt after and became the core of Remscheid) ;)
Either Lennep or Wipperfürth would be good choices, I just think that Wipperfürth had a slightly more interesting history, was significant due to the mint and is the older city.
(and full disclosure, since I previously stated that I am from the beautiful County/Duchy of Berg: I am not from or particularly close to Wipperfürth, Lennep/Remscheid is actually closer to me than Wipperfürth and were it for local bias, I would actually have to advocate for the fourth significant city of Berg, Ratingen - which would make no sense at all geographically unfortunately :D)
 
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In one of the image descriptions was some text about the interlocking royal families of the region. As players, will we be able to see these connections in a family tree, like a basic CK3 version, or is this just some flavour?

Not expecting anything close to CK3's character depth but it would be nice to have some pictures for leaders, and a little more depth and character compared to something like EU4.
 
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Very detailed feedback, we'll definitely take into account, thanks!
Thank you! Any chance we could get some clarification regarding good production that was only established hundreds of years into the game?
Will there be technologies that can spawn these goods? Examples would be coal (was used more and more as forests disappeared), alum (was prospected across Europe in the 16th century) or saltpeter (small scale production popped up everywhere in the 16th century, it was made from manure and feces, not natural deposits).

Also tbh, you can ignore most of the food resources in my map because it was pretty arbitrary just to get a decent distribution after other resources were placed, and in the future I'll only list specific goods that I have sources for, like where metals were mined.
But I did a lot of research for Germany already, so my feedback for that will be extensive, including locations that were hunting grounds or well known for their fruit production.
 
Would it be possible to introduce subcultures in Project Ceasar? Because even in one cultural area, there are many cultures that can differ greatly from one another. For example, in the German cultural area, there are the southern Germans like Bavarians, Austrians, Swiss, Baden and Württembergers, who are much closer to each other than the Rhinelanders, who have a bunch of different small cultures, or the northern Germans like in Lübeck, Hamburg, Bremen, Stettin (Pomeranian) or the Dutch and Frisians, who could have their own subgroup in the German cultural area like everyone else. this could make the game even more historically accurate. Germany is already a huge patchwork and the cultural map should show that to a certain extent. In the game, you could arrange it so that these subcultures are even closer to each other than to the rest of the cultural group. And that the population accepts the rulers of these subcultures more readily than others. but that's up to you
 
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seeing the goods map, if for balance reason you need a bit of a swap. gummersbach (close to cologne) could be maybe swaped for livestock or iron. both would be somewhat justifiable. of course i have no clue if EVERY region could claim to have had medievel mines.

source now is only "trust me bro" of course but it only becomes important if you search for a place for those goods balance wise^^

*edit* you could argue for köln and siegburg too.. a lot of the locations around there.
 
A question that will be more relevant next week, but I'll ask it here and just ask again later (in case I forget)

What is the game design around autonomous/semi-autonomous structures? I'm thinking the Crowns of Castile and Aragon, both of which had a number of semi-autonomous kingdoms within them and after the union, were ruled as independent polities with separate laws until the Bourbons came to the throne. I'm also thinking about the states and territories of the US (and the Swiss cantons), with the ideas of federations and confederations of nations and how different subdivisions doing certain things can have and has had big implications to an entire nation.

To an extent, I'm also thinking about LARPing an early Netherlands by establishing a personal union over all of the land, forming something like "The United Dutch Principalities" where I am head of state of all/most of the subdivisions but maybe Utrecht is incorporated as a state but remains theocratic

I apreciate that I might be asking for too much here, and this might have to be fantasy in my head, but would genuinely be amazing if we could do this.
 
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We had 3 options for the cultures:
1. Just go with Dutch, based on the language.
2. Portray the 4 regional variants/dialects of Middle Dutch (Flemish, Brabantic, Hollandic, Limburgic), plus Dutch Low Saxon.
3. Opting for an intermediate level, grouping Flemish, Brabantic, and Limburgic under Flemish, and Hollandic and Dutch Low Saxon groups under Dutch (as they also had a really close relationship). This is the one we decided to go to, for the moment.

We also discussed internally Overijssel and the Dutch Low Saxon region; as we have to review a bit the German cultures, it may change depending on that. And, in any case, we make this new series precisely to gather feedback, so we'll be reading opinions on this topic in the next few days. :)
Hey there,

I'm from Brabant and personally I think you should rather split the cultures. Even thought having Brabantic, Limburgian and Flemish feels like much, Brabantic definatly deserves their own culture. I am not saying this through my bias and I shall try to explain it further.
1715639755390.png


The Dutch language really started developing in Brabant, no not in Belgium but in North Brabant. The accence that the People of Brabant had in speaking the same language compared to other area's was the foundation of the modern-day-correct-dutch (if you understand me).
Up to these days "Brabants" (the dialect of brabant) still has influence into large parts of the Netherlands (as you can see in the first file). Up to this day, there are around 5 million speakers of the Brabantic dialects.

I do have to admit that the real influence of Brabant on Dutch only started during the 80 years war, but I am only talking about a language so far, the real culture in terms of traditions etc. is unique and always has been unique in the Netherlands.

I could go into the traditions further but I think my post would be to long then.

Greetings from me.

(I got my sources through: personal knowledge, "overnederlandsgesproken" and the university of Utrecht)
 
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ArcMap and QGIS. We've gathered maps over the years from different sources, many others by georeferencing maps, @Aldaron already had a database of his own as per his previous experience as a modder, etc.

In Europe, Poland has an academic GIS-based historical map (the Historical Atlas of Poland), but it's one very rare example amongst others as far as I know.

There are some current ongoing projects regarding road reconstruction (essentially updates on the Via Bundus project), for example, in Finland, which aim to reconstruct medieval roads, but at least this sub-project is planned to finish next year.

Mostly, though, academic GIS usage is pretty low-level as far as I've seen.

I use Global Mapper both for hobby-work and professional usage; it's perhaps not as capable as QGIS, but it's much more intuitive. Some national European datums have certain problems though (for example, the S-JTSK used in Slovakia always loaded by default northings as eastings and vice versa so I had to manually fix that – but I think they've fixed this by now).
 
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The detail in this map is incredible. There's more localities in Flanders alone than there were provinces in the entire EU4 low countries.

But I can't help but notice that peat seems to be missing as resource though? Seems to be a bit of an oversight considering how important peat production was in pre-modern Northern Europe. Especially in the low countries, where peat, fish and cattle production dominated the economic life on the seaboard from Frisia down to Flanders
 
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But I can't help but notice that peat seems to be missing as resource though? Seems to be a bit of an oversight considering how important peat production was in pre-modern Northern Europe.
What would it be used for? Just fuel?
Bog iron wasn't a thing anymore in the Netherlands by that time.