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Tinto Maps #1 - 10th of May 2024 - Low Countries

Hello everybody, and welcome to the first post of Tinto Maps! This is a new weekly series that we will be running about the top-secret game Project Caesar.

Let me introduce myself before I continue, as some of you may get to know me from the development of the latest EUIV DLCs, but I might not be as well-known to everyone as Johan. I’m Pavía, the Content Design Lead at Paradox Tinto, which I joined in 2021. Before becoming a videogame developer, my background was as a Historian, which led me to work on a PhD. in Medieval History (fool me!), which I finished in 2020. Besides that, I’ve spent several thousands of hours of my life playing Paradox GSGs since I discovered and started playing Europa Universalis 20 years ago, in 2004.

What this new series will be about is quite straightforward: each week I will be sharing with you maps of a new different region, so you have an outlook of them and we are able to receive early feedback (because as you may already know from Johan’s Tinto Talks, there is still a lot of WIP stuff ongoing).

About this feedback, we’d like you to take into account a couple of things. The first is that we’ve worked really hard to gather the best sources of information available to craft the best possible map; we used GIS tools with several layers of historical map sources from academic works, geographical data, administrative data, etc., to help us ensure the desired quality. So we would appreciate getting specific suggestions backed by these types of sources, as others (let’s say, a Wikipedia map or YouTube video with no references) may not be reliable enough. The second thing to comment on is that sometimes a certain decision we made was an interpretation over an unclear source, while sometimes we have just plainly made some errors when crafting the map (which on a 30,000 location map is a normal thing, I guess). I’ll let you know when any of these happen, and I’m also going to ask for your understanding when an error or bug is found and confirmed as such.

With those forewords said, let’s start with today’s region: the Low Countries! This is what the political map looks like:

Countries.png

The regional situation in 1337. The counties of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeeland are ruled by William of Avesnes, who is married to Joanna, daughter of Duke John III of Brabant. Another John, the Duke of Luxembourg, might be the strongest power, as he is also the King of Bohemia. The County of Flanders is the wealthiest country in the region, controlling such important cities as Brugge and Ghent. Up in the north, we have other interesting countries, such as the Bishopric of Utrecht or the Republic of Frisia (you might notice that we're using a dynamic custom country name for them, 'Frisian Freedom').

And here we have the locations:

Locations.png

We had a fun bug for some time - Antwerpen didn’t have any pixels connected to the sea, which we found because we couldn’t build any type of port building there. There’s a happy ending, as the bug has already been corrected, and Antwerpen can finally have a proper port!

Provinces:

Provinces.jpg


Terrain (Climate, Topography, and Vegetation):

Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

We are aware that the Netherlands looked differently in the 14th century, as several land reclamations took place during the Late Medieval and Early Modern periods, but we are using a 20th-century version of the map for the sake of consistency. Most of the regions throughout the world would look quite different from nowadays, and documenting those changes (especially the coastline shapes) would be a non-trivial problem to resolve. As a side note, we already removed Flevoland from it, and have already identified some other modern ones that slipped through and we'll eventually remove them, as well.

Cultures:

Cultures.png

The stripes mean that there are pops of different culture inhabiting in those location. Also, the German and French cultures are WIP, we’ll show you a proper version on later Tinto Maps.

Religions:

Religions.png

Not many religions here yet, although there will be interesting religious stuff happening eventually…

Raw Goods:

Goods.png

Goods get regularly swapped around here and there to have a balance between geographical and historical accuracy, and gameplay purposes. So take this as the far-from-final current version of them.

And an additional map for this week:

Markets.png

We reinstated a Low Countries market centered on Antwerpen, after doing some balance tweaks that made it more viable.

And these are the maps for today! I hope that you have a nice weekend, and next Friday, we will travel down south, to Iberia!
 

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I read that page, yes, but if that's its only use, well... This feels like an unnecessary trade good to me, why not lump it with the dyes trade good?

i'm not sure about the distinction between dates and fruits either btw... I get the vegetable/potato one because the potato introduction from the new world makes for a bunch of flavor, I get the olives distinction (although I may prefer 'oil', which could include other vegetable oils), but the dates? (It does prevent people from going "fruits in algeria bug bug bug though (yes, I have greenland ivory ptsd :p ))
I was wondering about why dates were separate as well, is it just flavour or do they have different uses from fruit?
 
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Antwerpen market, no Lisboa market. I'm rioting.
 
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We had 3 options for the cultures:
1. Just go with Dutch, based on the language.
2. Portray the 4 regional variants/dialects of Middle Dutch (Flemish, Brabantic, Hollandic, Limburgic), plus Dutch Low Saxon.
3. Opting for an intermediate level, grouping Flemish, Brabantic, and Limburgic under Flemish, and Hollandic and Dutch Low Saxon groups under Dutch (as they also had a really close relationship). This is the one we decided to go to, for the moment.

We also discussed internally Overijssel and the Dutch Low Saxon region; as we have to review a bit the German cultures, it may change depending on that. And, in any case, we make this new series precisely to gather feedback, so we'll be reading opinions on this topic in the next few days. :)
Even if you don't add Dutch Low Saxon it should be Lower Saxon instead of Dutch on the map.
 
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Interesting, where'd you guys get Roman flanders from ? first time i'm hearing of the term, but i'm generally not familiar with the area around lille. I know there's an 'imperial flanders', around aalst, but roman flanders is new to me. Also is 'kemptenland' an archaic spelling of kempenland ?
Roman Flanders might be related to Romance Flanders, perhaps? Seems to match up with it being composed of Lille, Tournai, and Douai.
It referenes this, correct.
 
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Game is the hunting version of having cattle ranches or other domesticated livestock.

What about foraging as the "hunting" version of growing fruit for Native Americans and other more primitive societies around the world that haven't stuck to agriculture yet? may be "Wild Fruits"? Over time surely game becomes something else as could wild fruits be replaced with something that grants higher output.
 
Why are Pearls a tradegood in the Low Countries? Pretty sure neither saltwater nor freshwater pearl clams lived there back then.

Zeeland is known for its mussels, but those don't make pearls.
 
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I don't know if it's because the game is in early development but the graphical quality of the map look inferior to Rome Imperator map.
Also I'm a bit sad that it's one location = one raw material, a location with a iron mine could also produce livestock in the vicinity but I guess that would open the door to many game design complications.

Otherwise all of this look very good and promising.
As I understand it that is only the raw material produced by the province itself. By building buildings or similar should be possible to produce other materials as well. It's basically to make sure all provinces have some economic value regardless of development and to bootstrap the economy a bit.
 
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For the French exclave around Lille, Dutch wiki calls it "Flemish Picardie", which seems more logical. What's the source for "Romance"? (Edit-answered while looking it up)
It also only lasted for a couple decades around game start, at least Tournai and probably Lille should be Flemish culture to reflect that, imo
 
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This is just amazing, it's a revolutionary progress from the last versions of EU4 and even most other PDX games in terms of attention to detail.

A curiosity about the climate, how would highland tropical regions be represented? Under the Köppen climate classifications they end up having bizzarre not fully representative climate like Oceanic for the Colombian highlands or Tundra/Artic for most of Peruvian Andes, but that might not allow you to have the adequate granularity needed.
 
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Thanks, great map:)

Some detail questions (from local knowledge)

What's the naming convention? Brugge and Ghent don't seem to follow the same one?

For Bruges: shouldn't it include the western part of today's zeeuws Vlaanderen (location Hulst), which included its port access for most of the game period? I'd also make it swamp.

On the other side of Flanders: Maasmechelen is a 20th century name. Since there's already a Mechelen, maybe name it Tongeren, which is a Roman town in that location?

Zeeland only one location, with the much smaller (even if complete) Zeeuws Vlaanderen separate seems quite unequal, I'd either not have zeeuws Vlaanderen (adding the remainder to sint niklaas) or walcheren (the main island of Zeeland) separate from the rest of the county. With the size of next-door Breda, probably first?

I also don't like the culture map :p
The naming convention is a bit inconsistent in some places, good call. Thanks for the feedback, I'll share it with the team. :)
 
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Looks great!

For some constructive criticism : If possible I would redraw the Amsterdam and Utrecht borders to add a new Haarlem location. Haarlem was a very important city in this period and would remain so until the faithful siege in the 80 years war.
 
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Thanks, great map:)

Some detail questions (from local knowledge)

What's the naming convention? Brugge and Ghent don't seem to follow the same one?

For Bruges: shouldn't it include the western part of today's zeeuws Vlaanderen (location Hulst), which included its port access for most of the game period? I'd also make it swamp.

On the other side of Flanders: Maasmechelen is a 20th century name. Since there's already a Mechelen, maybe name it Tongeren, which is a Roman town in that location?

Zeeland only one location, with the much smaller (even if complete) Zeeuws Vlaanderen separate seems quite unequal, I'd either not have zeeuws Vlaanderen (adding the remainder to sint niklaas) or walcheren (the main island of Zeeland) separate from the rest of the county. With the size of next-door Breda, probably first?

I also don't like the culture map :p
i'm also curious about the naming convention, we have english versions of names eg bruges, ghent and dunkirk, we have modern dutch spelling for eg amsterdam, den haag or oudenaarde, and then also archaic spelling for ostende and kortryk.

and yeah 100% agree on extending bruges to the northern coastline, its satellite towns (Sluys, Damme, monniksrede....) were an essential part of its commercial infrastructure. it's not impactful gameplay wise of course, but it would make me happy (also would line up better with the irl administrative divisions at the time, the kasselrijen).
 
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