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Tinto Maps #1 - 10th of May 2024 - Low Countries

Hello everybody, and welcome to the first post of Tinto Maps! This is a new weekly series that we will be running about the top-secret game Project Caesar.

Let me introduce myself before I continue, as some of you may get to know me from the development of the latest EUIV DLCs, but I might not be as well-known to everyone as Johan. I’m Pavía, the Content Design Lead at Paradox Tinto, which I joined in 2021. Before becoming a videogame developer, my background was as a Historian, which led me to work on a PhD. in Medieval History (fool me!), which I finished in 2020. Besides that, I’ve spent several thousands of hours of my life playing Paradox GSGs since I discovered and started playing Europa Universalis 20 years ago, in 2004.

What this new series will be about is quite straightforward: each week I will be sharing with you maps of a new different region, so you have an outlook of them and we are able to receive early feedback (because as you may already know from Johan’s Tinto Talks, there is still a lot of WIP stuff ongoing).

About this feedback, we’d like you to take into account a couple of things. The first is that we’ve worked really hard to gather the best sources of information available to craft the best possible map; we used GIS tools with several layers of historical map sources from academic works, geographical data, administrative data, etc., to help us ensure the desired quality. So we would appreciate getting specific suggestions backed by these types of sources, as others (let’s say, a Wikipedia map or YouTube video with no references) may not be reliable enough. The second thing to comment on is that sometimes a certain decision we made was an interpretation over an unclear source, while sometimes we have just plainly made some errors when crafting the map (which on a 30,000 location map is a normal thing, I guess). I’ll let you know when any of these happen, and I’m also going to ask for your understanding when an error or bug is found and confirmed as such.

With those forewords said, let’s start with today’s region: the Low Countries! This is what the political map looks like:

Countries.png

The regional situation in 1337. The counties of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeeland are ruled by William of Avesnes, who is married to Joanna, daughter of Duke John III of Brabant. Another John, the Duke of Luxembourg, might be the strongest power, as he is also the King of Bohemia. The County of Flanders is the wealthiest country in the region, controlling such important cities as Brugge and Ghent. Up in the north, we have other interesting countries, such as the Bishopric of Utrecht or the Republic of Frisia (you might notice that we're using a dynamic custom country name for them, 'Frisian Freedom').

And here we have the locations:

Locations.png

We had a fun bug for some time - Antwerpen didn’t have any pixels connected to the sea, which we found because we couldn’t build any type of port building there. There’s a happy ending, as the bug has already been corrected, and Antwerpen can finally have a proper port!

Provinces:

Provinces.jpg


Terrain (Climate, Topography, and Vegetation):

Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

We are aware that the Netherlands looked differently in the 14th century, as several land reclamations took place during the Late Medieval and Early Modern periods, but we are using a 20th-century version of the map for the sake of consistency. Most of the regions throughout the world would look quite different from nowadays, and documenting those changes (especially the coastline shapes) would be a non-trivial problem to resolve. As a side note, we already removed Flevoland from it, and have already identified some other modern ones that slipped through and we'll eventually remove them, as well.

Cultures:

Cultures.png

The stripes mean that there are pops of different culture inhabiting in those location. Also, the German and French cultures are WIP, we’ll show you a proper version on later Tinto Maps.

Religions:

Religions.png

Not many religions here yet, although there will be interesting religious stuff happening eventually…

Raw Goods:

Goods.png

Goods get regularly swapped around here and there to have a balance between geographical and historical accuracy, and gameplay purposes. So take this as the far-from-final current version of them.

And an additional map for this week:

Markets.png

We reinstated a Low Countries market centered on Antwerpen, after doing some balance tweaks that made it more viable.

And these are the maps for today! I hope that you have a nice weekend, and next Friday, we will travel down south, to Iberia!
 

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I love this. I am looking forward to the next map post more than the next dev diary. Holy hell. I am playing this game mainly for the alt history and religion/culture are my favorite parts. Needless to say, very excited about Iberia. I am also very excited for areas that I am specifically interested in (Siberia, Mainland Southeast Asia, Central Asia, Balkans, Anatolia, Levant)
 
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Could you elaborate a bit on what is required to make it into the game as a location and what may prevent it?

Personally I would have tried to squeeze in Delft between Den Haag and Rotterdam. On paper I would think it has pretty much everything you would want from a location: A relatively high population during large parts of the game's time period, it had city status by thr game's start date, fortifications, and plenty of opportunities for historical events: William of Orange took residence there during the Dutch revolt and it has been the burial place of most members of house Orange-Nassau since then. It was one of six cities with a VOC (Dutch East India Company) chamber. It was significant during the Dutch golden age, with Vermeer being the most prominent artist from Delft. It had a pottery industry which gained enough fame to get its own name (Delftware) which emerged there as a result of an Italian potter moving to the city. There was also a dramatic gunpowder store explosion killing and injuring a large amount of people.

The only things I can see working againt its inclusion is lack of space and the short distance to Den Haag, but both Rotterdam and Den Haag looks fairly big compared to Gouda.
 
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Interesting, where'd you guys get Roman flanders from ? first time i'm hearing of the term, but i'm generally not familiar with the area around lille. I know there's an 'imperial flanders', around aalst, but roman flanders is new to me. Also is 'kemptenland' an archaic spelling of kempenland ?
*heavy breathing*

Did someone say...

Roman Flanders?
 
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“Frisian Freedom” is a fairly silly nation name, hoping that gets changed
Agreed. I'd like to see counterarguments as to why it is a proper name for a land entity (avoiding using the term "state" here). "Frisian freedom" seems to me to be more of a name for a period or condition at the time for the region (per Wikipedia, "Frisian freedom was the absence of feudalism and serfdom in Frisia" which describes the conditions at the time rather than being a name for the region/state/whatever). I think a more appropriate name would be something like "Free Frisia". It's kind of like calling France in the 1700s as "French Absolutism", which would also be a strange name for the country.
 
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I really like all maps and all, but I'm worried about one thing. We can clearly see states that have only one 'location'. Something simmilar is taking place in Vic3 with states like Anhalt or Mecklemburg-Strelitz. But after you conquer 2 locations of the same province in Victoria they merge permanently - other party cant conquer only this one specific location. So here is my question: Are you able to acquire 'locations' through peace deals or the smallest you can go is provinces?
 
I think it would be more accurate to put Flemish and Dutch cultures together and separate Limburgs. I mean the language in Limburg was different from the language in Flanders and Holland. This or just put everything into Dutch culture. There's absolutely no reason to make distinction between Flanders and Holland in cultural aspect.
 
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where is the milk and cheese? Shouldn't cows be a commodity just like horses? camels, elephants, alpacas...
I would say milk and cheese are not raw foods, they are not produced as the RGO of the location, they would need buildings to be produced
 
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Maybe it is better to call the ecoomic market the Market of Brugge since it was the main trading centre at that time, also shouldn't Arras/Atrecht still be producing wool(products)? Also maybe make the Veluwe a forested area. Then again my knowledge of the Lowlands during the 14-15 century isn't that great.
During my visit to Palijs het Loo I learned that the woodlands in the Veluwe was in a big part planted at the end of the 19th century to stop desertification and to make it more attractive for wild game and to expand on sports hunting possibilities.
 
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I really like all maps and all, but I'm worried about one thing. We can clearly see states that have only one 'location'. Something simmilar is taking place in Vic3 with states like Anhalt or Mecklemburg-Strelitz. But after you conquer 2 locations of the same province in Victoria they merge permanently - other party cant conquer only this one specific location. So here is my question: Are you able to acquire 'locations' through peace deals or the smallest you can go is provinces?
If it's anything like I:R, you can go by location.
 
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Can we have that be a setting we can change? While the "zoom in to change mapmode" was cute when first debuted... I kinda just want to have control of my mapmodes myself. Let me press keys to change the map, and have zoom just... zoom.
So much this.
When you zoom out enough its just black jitters.
I would still prefer the ability to decide when it gets too bad myself.
There is gutter beer, but it tastes horrible
o_O
Some (Germans) would probably consider most Belgian beer gutter beer. The Belgians do seem to go out of their way to breach the Reinheitsgebot.
 
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The Duchy of Limburg in this time should be part of the Duchy of Brabant. That was the case since the Battle of Woeringen in 1288.
If it's currently in a PU underneath Brabant, which might not be visible on the map, ignore this.

I think the province of "Kemptenland" is supposed to be named "Kempenland" (drop the "t") or "Texandria/Toxandria".

Is Flanders completely independent as it appears on the map or some sort of autonomous vassal of France (as it historically was)?
Also, isn't Kempenland the east of North Brabant, rather than the west?
 
"The counties of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeeland are ruled by William of Avesnes, who is married to Joanna, daughter of Duke John III of Brabant."

I might be reading way too much into this, but I hope that this is saying that we get a character system. In EU4, we would not know that Joanna is the daughter of John III and it's especially important because Joanna became Dutchess regnant of Brabant. If the two of them had had children, we might've seen a proto-dutch/Burgundian state about 100 years earlier than in our timeline.

Honestly, Count William would be an interesting start as you have the potential to unite the low countries very quickly if you could just have a child.
 
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Looks amazing, although as a Frisian I have some feedback (aka nitpicks. Sorry but I always have those with Frisian in Paradox games).

Nitpick 1: Holland seems mixed between Frisian and Dutch but besides the very most northern part of Holland (Hoorn), by 1337 it would be more accurate to display Holland as all Dutch. It would be a different story if the game was set in 1000 or even earlier but by 1337 there wasn’t that much Frisian left in Holland

Nitpick 2: why is Makkum the southwestern Frisian location? Sneek or Stavoren would make way more sense. Also I think the spelling is messed up with ‘Leeuwerden’. It should be Leeuwarden (Dutch spelling) or otherwise Ljouwert (Frisian spelling)

Otherwise, very happy with this map, excited for the game

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Thought about it some more and I have some more feedback to improve the map. This is the first Paradox game of which I’m actively following development so I’m very glad to hopefully make the game the best it can be.

Anyways, for one it would probably be the most accurate to create a (Dutch) Low Saxon culture and make the locations of Groningen, Wedde, Harderwijk, Zutphen, Doetinchem and all of the Oversticht this culture

It would also be the most accurate to separate the city of Groningen from the Ommelanden (Appingedam and Wedde). Either make them separate provinces or add the location Groningen to the Oversticht and rename the current province of Groningen to the Ommelanden

It would also be nice to see names of locations in provinces in Frisian and/or Low Saxon, not just Dutch. For the rest, I’m mainly familiar with the Northern Netherlands, where I’m from, so I don’t really have much feedback on other parts, although I saw some other pretty good feedback from other users
 
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i hope there will be some heatmap for population density - rather hard to see where pops live.
Yes, there is, but the screenshot was taken with no country selected.
 
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