Tinto Maps #1 - 10th of May 2024 - Low Countries

[SaoMagnifico]

Oh my gosh, I love this! This is one of my favorite regions to play, and it's a region that's very special to me because of my heritage (Dutch, Frisian, and Luxembourger).

One suggestion: Consider renaming Wiltz to Diekirch. It's the larger commune and had more prominence for this time period, as the aforementioned John the Blind had it fortified right around the game start date.

 

[Mef]

Alright, here are my suggestions for the trade goods. I ended up filling the entire map, I obviously don't expect everything to be copied like that, but once I started suggesting some goods, then that necessarily meant some other goods had to move around.
When it comes to things like crops, I don't think you'll find many good sources for exactly how they were distributed anyway so it's pretty arbitrary.

I made a map with all the suggestions:

And here the details:

Gold, Silver, Tin, Lead, Copper, Saltpeter:

Not much in this area, just one location I would suggest.

Limbourg: Lead. There is a town called Bleyberg/Blieberg/So-on-Mont-d'-Plomb (meaning lead mountain) in the area, modern name Plombières. While lead wasn't mined at the start of the game, mining was done throughout most of the games timespan. Since the Low Countries don't have a lot of mines other than coal and iron, I think it's the better good than just another lumber location.


Iron and Coal:

We are dealing with the most important iron ore location in Europe here, although it wasn't hugely important yet in the game's time period. The Minette deposits' insane richness only really became relevant during industrialization, when large amounts of ore were needed for industrial steel production, but I think it's a waste not to give all the minette locations iron. They are famous for it and iron was produced in the area since Roman times. Belgium even exhausted its share of them by the mid 19th century.

For reference, I have roughly drawn the location of the Minette deposit on the map, sourced from a 1921 report on iron ore reserves in Europe.

Thionville, Luxembourg, Arlon, Longeville(?) and Wallerfangen: My suggestion is iron for all of them. Thionville's coal should go to Saarbrücken instead. Wallerfangen could have coal as well, but I think iron was more important.

The region along the Meuse (so locations Mons, Wavre, Namur, Liège, Walcourt, Dinant and whatever that small font long name location next to it is) were one of the most industrialized regions in the world at the end of the game's timeframe, highly industrialized already around 1800. So there definitely should be some potential there.

Namur is shown to have marble production, but I think it should be iron. It became famous for its method of iron smelting, which was called the Walloon method and spread as far as Sweden. Unless there is some specific reason for marble production there? Iron could be in Liège as well, but I don't think it needs to be that concentrated and alum seems fine for industrial production.

Mons is the location of the borinage coal field. Very rich, but how does the game model coal only being used as an alternative to firewood (which became quite expensive in some regions) for most of the time period? Until the puddling process and steam engines, there really isn't a special use for coal and those only happen in the 18th century.
I think Mons, Wavre, Douai and Lens would be coal locations, but only later in the game. I don't believe coal here mattered before the inventions mentioned above.
Coal should also be present in Maastricht and Lommel later on. See this map for coal locations in the Low Countries.
BTW, Arras is shown to have coal, but I don't know why. The coal is clearly further north.

We could really use some clarification on if coal is supposed to exist from the start or be added later in the game. If the latter, then there would only be few locations with coal at the start, maybe some in England, Saarland and the Ruhr area, were it was actually used as a replacement for firewood.


Alum and Mercury:

Pretty hard to find any sources for production of alum or similar materials, as they aren't as important as stuff like iron.
Alum in Liège as a mining center of the period is fine, I think, especially since Flanders needs it. Most of the alum supply of the period was imported, though.
Doesn't look like there was any significant mercury production in the area.
Edit: After some more research on alum, it being produced in Liège is absolutely correct! It was only established 250 years into the game, but it was pretty important. I want to add that coal production actually was very important in Liège at the start of the game.


Pearls, Medicine, Amber:

Honestly I wouldn't really know what medicaments represents or why pearls are in the Low Countries. While I believe some amber can be found at the North Sea, it wasn't significant.


Clay and Sand:

It looks like the Netherlands do have some good clay resources, even after all the polder business, so they probably should have at least one location with clay. There are also old clay mines in Belgium around Kortrijk which gives its name to a geological formation that mainly consists of clay.
I suggest Kortrijk, s'-Hertogenbosch and Cuijk for clay.
There is actually a 'desert' with sandy dunes south of s'-Hertogenbosch which was caused by excessive peat and clay extraction from the marshland in the area, so it's good that this location doesn't have farmlands vegetation. Peat mining was even outlawed in some areas, as it became too dangerous.

This begs the question: how will draining the marshland be represented in the game? You could start some of those marsh locations out with clay deposits, but if they are made into flatland, they could get rye and vegetables as resource.

North Brabant is generally very sandy in terms of geology, so maybe this is somewhere where sand production could happen?
Sand was widely available anyway, and the limiting factor for glass production was fuel, which is why glass was often made close to a forest. So sand is kind of a filler good.
I suggest sand for Breda, Dunkirk, Dordrecht and Makkum.


Salt:

Zeeland, famous for its salt production for a long time, so Middelburg having it is correct. Zeeuws-Vlaanderen, so Hulst also produced salt. I don't think there should be too much salt production around, though, because Dutch traders actually sailed to Portugal to get salt from the famous Setubal deposit and sold it in Northern Europe. Maybe one more in Dokkum, and that's it?


Marble and Stone:

I couldn't find any evidence for marble or alabaster in the Low Countries. I found a German article talking about a sculpture made from alabaster in the Low Countries, but the material was found to have been imported from Franconia through the Rhine and Main.
There is the Carrières du Hainaut quarry, which produces a certain type of limestone, but does that count as being special enough? If so, then Mons should have marble, if not then stone.

Stone looks like another filler good mostly for hilly/mountainous locations. Not really a strength of the aptly named Low Countries.
Other than the Mons location mentioned above, I suggest stone for Oudenaarde and the unreadable location north of Bastogne.


Dyes:

Madder was mentioned in this thread before. Definitely a dye that was extensively grown in the Low Countries. Zeeland should probably have salt, though, so I suggest dyes for Rotterdam, Den Haag and Ghent.


Wine:

In my opinion, there shouldn't be wine here, as we're coming out of the warm period at the start of the game and making wine wasn't really viable for most of the game's timeframe in this region.


Fiber Crops and Wool:

I saw some people suggesting that there shouldn't be much wool production here, because they imported English wool. But there was still some domestic wool production, of course, and a lot of flax production as well. This production center for cloth just had THAT much demand.
For wool I would suggest Thouin, Walcourt, Maastricht and Weert.
For flax (fiber crops) production I'd suggest Sint Niklaas, Harderwijk, Doetinchem, Zuthpen and Enschede.


Rye (Sturdy Grains) and Wheat:

I know from international statistics published around 1900 that wheat production in the Netherlands was 22% of rye production, while for Belgium it was 61%, but I have no idea how accurately this translates to this game's time period. It does suggest to me that rye should be the predominant crop in this region.

So, for wheat I would suggest Cassel, Ypres, Lille, Tournai, Douai, Valenciennes, Wavre, Verne, Brussels, Nijmegen and Arnhem.
For sturdy grains I would suggest Utrecht, Apeldoorn, Deventer, Zwolle, Ostende, Leuven, Mechelen, Turnhout, Lommel, Maasmechelen, Hasselt and Eindhoven.


Horses

Now that's a filler good if I've ever seen one. You can have those anywhere where you have livestock, but I'd assume horses 'production' to be more common around population centers.
For horses I suggest Antwerpen and Helmond

Lumber

Definitely something for the Ardennes. Not all that much lumber in the rest of the Low Countries.
I suggest Venlo, Bouillon, Bastogne, St. Vith and Stavelot.


Wild Game

Also something for the forested Ardennes, but not much.
I suggest to keep it in Neufchateau and replace the fur in Wiltz


Fish

Mostly makes sense as a good for cities, in my opinion, since that's where the fishermen and their guilds would be,
So I suggest Bruges, Leiden, Amsterdam, Alkmaar, Hoorn, Harlingen, Groningen and Appingedam.


Livestock

Should obviously be mostly in location that aren't that great for crops, but there is always going to be a certain mix.
I suggest Dinant, Gouda, Assen, Emmen, and Wedde.


Legumes

An alternative farming good, I don't think there are going to be any historical sources showing a significant differentiation between growing legumes and other crops, so again it's pretty arbitrary.
I suggest Leeuwerden, Aalst and Coevorden.

 

[Mef]

And for consistency's sake Coblenz should maybe be written Koblenz. As otherwise Köln should be Koellen in the timeframe of the game and Mönchengladbach should be Monichgladbach .

City names changing over time is one thing, but the Koblenz/Coblenz thing is just due to a change in German spelling, like how one of the most common Medieval names, Cuntz/Conrad was always spelled with a C.
You can see that in other city names too, and I think the game should use the C spelling because that's accurate for the time period. It's still the same city name as today.

 

[WiJaMa]

Most of the regions throughout the world would look quite different from nowadays, and documenting those changes (especially the coastline shapes) would be a non-trivial problem to resolve.

The Yellow River changed course from emptying north of Shandong to emptying south of Shandong soon after the game start, leading to widespread destruction that was one of the catalysts for the fall of the Yuan Dynasty. Does this mean we won't see this happen in game?

 

[Atilla 'The Hun']

Please split Utrecht into Utrecht and Amersfoort!

 

[SexyPinkNinja]

what is "wild game" in the trade goods??

For me as a non native English speaker, it was highly confusing. I don't think everyone is familiar with this meaning of the word "game". Maybe it better to refer as hunting trophies, hunting or wild products?

For me as a non native English speaker, it was highly confusing. I don't think everyone is familiar with this meaning of the word "game". Maybe it better to refer as hunting trophies, hunting or wild products?

It doesn't mean just plain hunting though, there are specific types of animals and products included in this term, rather than the entire spectrum the word hunting implies

 

[Ingor]

yes of course you can acquire single locations

I think you've answered him twice, time to get some shut-eye mate, and thanks for the great thread !

 

[Martocticvs]

In the German names there a some dots missing:

Location map:

• Mors -> Moers (starting with the odd one out, no dots here!)
• Monchengladbach -> Mönchengladbach
• Duren -> Düren
• Prum -> Prüm

Province map:

• Gronegau -> Grönegau
• Hunsruck -> Hunsrück

And for consistency's sake Coblenz should maybe be written Koblenz. As otherwise Köln should be Koellen in the timeframe of the game and Mönchengladbach should be Monichgladbach .

Coblenz only became Koblenz in the 20th century, I thought?

 

[VPeterv]

After reading this whole thread I find it odd that noone mentioned the issue of the West and East Limbourg being called that.
Limburg being the name for that region has only been relevant since Willem I was given the Duchy title in 1839.
It's also pretty odd name considering you got the Limbourg location right next to it)

I believe a better name for the western province would be Loon in analogy with Liége(which in the past was written with an acute accent and only recently with a grave one) while for the Eastern one it could be Maastricht, again same logic here. These 3 provinces are an odd one since they never had a unique distinct encompassing name.
(Edit: I was able to find the name "Landen van Overmaas" to refer to 'Eastern Limbourg')

Another nitpick about the Loon province, which was mentioned before in the comments, is the name Maasmechelen which should be replaced by either Tongeren, a roman city and first seat of the Bishopric of Tongeren-Maastricht-Liege

Also a unique feature of the Tongeren locality is the "Redemptiedorpen / Redemption towns" basically towns under the ownership of Brabant administered by Maastricht, I don't think they should be added but a mention could be cool : )

 

[SebasR]

Are the climate, topography, and vegetation maps dynamic or static? For example, an event can change the terrain from marshland to farmland or forest to grassland. Does an event of a volcaino change the claimate? The mideleast and magreb get more arid during the course of the game?

 

[eddin2]

what is the ingame implications of that? troops moving slower in forests? does it matter outside warfare?

Perhaps provinces having lumber as a trade good give better output from forest vegetation compared to woods.

 

[Metz]

Will there be Margraves and Landgraves now that the HRE is more granular?

What will define whether a country is a county, duchy, kingdom, or empire? Something similar to development or another sort of calculation?

Will there be such a thing as de jure and de facto like in the CK series?

 

[Chief of Staff]

I don't know if it's because the game is in early development but the graphical quality of the map look inferior to Rome Imperator map.

In what ways is the graphical quality of the map inferior in comparison to Imperator: Rome? Could you elaborate? Just curious.

Also I'm a bit sad that it's one location = one raw material, a location with a iron mine could also produce livestock in the vicinity but I guess that would open the door to many game design complications.

Otherwise all of this look very good and promising.

I was going to also mention this as well. I really wish provinces in this upcoming game would produce more than one type of raw material, like in Victoria 2/3. But like you said, it would probably create many game design complications. Unfortunate.

 

[Metz]

yes of course you can acquire single locations

Suppose you are Hesse, any way to prevent Hesse acquiring single locations in a snake line to reach the ocean? The geopolitics themselves should make such a thing improbable but not impossible. Since EU4 has a smaller map scale, you probably only need 4-6 provinces to make it to the ocean. Here you probably need closer to 15+ locations.

 

[MasterPaw]

For me as a non native English speaker, it was highly confusing. I don't think everyone is familiar with this meaning of the word "game". Maybe it better to refer as hunting trophies, hunting or wild products?

It doesn't mean just plain hunting though, there are specific types of animals and products included in this term, rather than the entire spectrum the word hunting implies

Game is perfectly fine as English shouldn't really bother with non native imo, that's why translations exist

 

[Mef]

I was going to also mention this as well. I really wish provinces in this upcoming game would produce more than one type of raw material, like in Victoria 2/3. But like you said, it would probably create many game design complications. Unfortunate.

Locations can easily produce multiple raw materials, since many of the goods can be produced by generic buildings. I believe Johan has said before that you can build a lumber producing building in any location with woods/forest for example.
The only difference is that these buildings consume input goods and the RGOs do not.

 

[_Altiris_]

Second suggestion: If I see correctly there are no hills in Maastricht, I would add hills to that location, its what it's known for!

As someone who lives in the Eijsden region I agree. It even has some rocky terrain.

 

[Nanzihanbok]

The naming convention is a bit inconsistent in some places, good call. Thanks for the feedback, I'll share it with the team.

To add to the previous comment about inconsistent names:

- In Brabant, most locations use the Dutch names, but Brussels is English (Dutch would be Brussel) and Wavre is French (Waver in Dutch).
- In Flanders, most locations have Dutch names, but Bruges (Brugge) Cassel (Kassel), Ypres (Ieper) and Dunkirk (Duinkerke) use French or English names instead of Dutch. Ostende would be Oostende in Dutch, but currently has its Flemish name.
- Hertogenbosch is incorrect and should either be 's-Hertogenbosch (with the apostrophe and the lowercase s) or just Den Bosch. Den Bosch is the older name of the two, and also matches Den Haag (which is sometimes also called 's-Gravenhage).

 

[Davincie]

For Brabant it's also odd that it's called 'South Brabant' and 'North Brabant' instead of calling it 'Zuid-Brabant' and 'Noord-Brabant'. although I would prefer Zuid-Brabant not being called that at all. Same goes for 'East Flanders' and 'West Flanders'. Why aren't they 'Oost-Vlaanderen' and 'West-Vlaanderen'? Noord-Holland and South-Holland also need their - in the name.

 

[Mef]

Oh also regarding the Bruges/Antwerp question, I want to mention that Flanders boycotted the import of English cloth (which was becoming more important, because England was starting to export less wool and make more cloth itself) in 1359 and due to this, many German traders who were trading in London stopped in Brabant on the way, rather than Bruges.
It's documented that at the start of the 15th century, 35% of Cologne merchants who were trading with London were visiting Antwerp, while in the second half of the century it was 75%.

So while Bruges losing its port was the coup de grâce, it looks like Flemish trading policy had already negatively affected their importance compared to Brabant.
Cologne-Antwerp became a very important trade route in the 15th century, but that's a bit too late for the start of the game...