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Tinto Maps #10 - 12th of July 2024 - Syrian Levant & Egypt

Hello everyone, and welcome to another Tinto Maps! We’re back after celebrating the most important victories over Germany and France since the 30 Years War a hard week of work, and we’re ready to share with you the region of the Syrian Levant & Egypt (actually, we’re revealing a bit more of what those regions would be, to cover the complete extension of the Mamlūk Sultanate). Let’s go!

Countries:
Countries.png

The Mamlūk Sultanate is the main power of the region, a situation achieved after the defeat of the Mongols at the Battles of Ain Jalut and Marj al-Saffar, and the fall of Acre, the last stronghold of the Crusader states in Outremer. The latter's legacy is still handled by the Kingdom of Cyprus, ruled by Hugues IV of Lusignan. Apart from that, we can see the realm of Candia, a subject governed by the Serene Republic of Venice, and some Arabic tribes, such as the Hutaym and the Anizah. Oh, and also, to the south-west, you might have noticed some oases ruled by either the Mamluks, or Fezzan; I opted for not coloring the wastelands, as usual, but also the corridors, a type of terrain present in other GSGs, that we have in Project Caesar. I’ll talk more about them under the ‘Locations’ section of the DD, but I just want to note one more thing: the connection down the Nile is a regular one, with a border existing between the Mamluks and Makuria (the country that controls the small chunk of land at the very south of the image).

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The Bahri Mamluks have ruled the Sultanate since they deposed the Ayyubids, almost a century before the start of the game. It could maybe be a bit more accurate to depict Sultan al-Nasir Muhammad as an ibn Qalawun (‘of the lineage of Qalawun’), but the dynastical dynamics of the Mamluk rulers are not so easy to portray, so we opted for the moment to better use Bahriyya. Apart from that, you may also see the neighboring dynasties, such as the already-mentioned House of Lusignan, or the Hethumian of Cilicia.

Locations:
Locations 1.png

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Locations 4.png
Here you can see the locations of the entire region, and also closer chunks behind the ‘Spoiler’ button. The most interesting feature to talk about is that of the corridors, something that some of you might remember from ‘Imperator: Rome’, but also something new to the rest. The corridors are empty locations, with no population or resources, but that allows connection between the locations at their sides, for some mechanics that we’ve already mentioned (market access, control), and some others that we haven’t (army movement). This is the way that we’ve chosen to portray the Saharan corridors, that allow for a connection between the Maghreb and the Mashreq, and Western and Central Africa. There are also some regular locations over those corridors, with population, resources, etc., that can be controlled by countries, which portray the desert oases that made for important outposts in the different Saharan routes. Not all the connections are throughout corridors, though; outside of the image, the Nile River valley allows for regular locations all the way down from Egypt to Nubia, the last location held by the Mamluks being that of Aswan, while the first held by Makuria, not shown in the screenshot, being Qasr Ibrim. We will talk more about Nubia and Ethiopia in a future Tinto Maps.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Usual provinces mapmode; please let us know of any spelling or naming suggestions that come to your mind.

Areas:
Areas.png

A new mapmode that has been requested in previous Tinto Maps, and that we’re now incorporating.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

The climate is dominated by a mix of Mediterranean, Arid, and Cold Arid. The topography of the region is quite flat, with some hills and mountains on Mount Lebanon and Anti-Lebanon, Mount Sinai, and the verge of the Arabian plateau; and some marshland over the Nile Delta, of course. Regarding the vegetation, desert and sparse vegetation dominate most of the region, with some woods and forests over Levant, and the Nile fertile farmlands, the bread basket of the Eastern Mediterranean.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

Here starts the fun… Those countries ruling over the Middle East will face the challenge of managing several different cultural minorities. Libyan, Egyptian, Sa'idi, Bedouin, Ḥijāzī, Najidi (the green one to their right), Levantine, and Iraqi (the light blue at the top right of the picture) are all different regional cultures of Arabic-speaking people. Something interesting is that most of Bedouin pops are tribesmen, instead of peasants, portraying their traditional social organization. Coming to important minority groups, Coptic people are quite important in Egypt, accounting for about 10% of the population of the Mamlūk Sultanate. The other important minority are the Syriacs, as they also account for another 10% of the population, and are a cultural majority in a few locations. Apart from those, there are also Armenians, Kurds, and Turkomans on the divide between Anatolia, Syria, and Jazira, Alawites Shiites in Syria, Mizrahi Jews all over the region, Samaritans in Palestine, and Greeks in Crete, Cyprus, and some in Alexandria. Oh, also the Saharan cultures of the Eastern Berbers and the Toubou over some of the Saharan oases.

Religions:
Religion.png

More fun. In this region, we have:
  • Sunni Muslims
  • Miaphysite Christians
  • Orthodox Christians
  • Shia Muslims
  • Catholic Christians
  • Druzes
  • Jews
  • Nestorian Christians (the ‘label’ we’re using to depict the Church of the East)
  • Samaritans
  • Yazidi

Relating these religions to the previous cultures, we can tell you most of the Arabic-speaking cultures are Sunni Muslims, with some Shia Muslims in Syria and Lebanon. Most of the Coptic are Miaphysite, adhering to the Patriarchate of Alexandria, although some of there still follow the Orthodoxy of Constantinople. The Syriacs are also religiously divided, with some being Nestorians (the current name we have to cover the confessions related to the Church of the East), some Miaphysites, some Orthodox, and even some Catholics in Lebanon. And then we have some cultural-religious minorities, such as the Alawite Shiites, the Druzes (which are of Levantine culture), the Mizrahi Jews, the Samaritans, and the Yazidi (which are of Kurd culture).


Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.png

There are some materials that are more unique to this region, such as the Dates in the arid fringes. The Nile Valley and Delta are incredibly fertile, having plenty of different crops: Wheat, Rice, Legumes, Sugar, Cotton, Fiber Crops (=Linen), etc. Livestock, Wool, and Horses are also important resources for the people across the region. There are also some metals present in the region, such as Copper in Cyprus and around the Red Sea, Iron, Tin, some Lead, and some interesting sources of Alum.

Markets:
Markets.png

The main market centers of the region are Alexandria (yeah, it’s there! I’ve already reported its weird name-wrapping and one of our programmers is going to take a look at it) for the Mashreq, Damascus for the Syrian Levant and Mecca for the Hejaz.

Country and Location Population:
Country Population .png

Location Population 1.png

Location Population 2.png

Location Population 3.png
The population of the region points to Egypt being its powerhouse, with several million people being supported being the Nile Valley and Delta. Apart from that, the Syrian Levant has a very decent population, making the Mamlūk Sultanate a dreadful rival to have in 1337. The arid fringes make for a way more difficult food production and population sustainability, making them more of strategic value, by their position, resources, etc.

And that’s all for today! Next week @Johan will show you Scandinavia, the very first map that was crafted for Project Caesar! Cheers!
 
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why are you so keen on adding these oasises and their desert routes to every game? No country in history has managed to transport rasonable armies through the wastelands of Sahara, no country in history has expanded through Sahara into the North Africa from Sahel, or vice versa

The AI will clearly not be able to utilize them in a way that can respond to the player's use of the provinces without losing it's entire army to the attrition there

so why add them?
The Almoravids and the Saidis
 
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Whenever I hear or read "Mamluk", I imagine the unit from Age of Empires II. Just a whole country of guys on weirdly-shaped camels, throwing scimitars at horsemen.
 
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why are you so keen on adding these oasises and their desert routes to every game? No country in history has managed to transport rasonable armies through the wastelands of Sahara, no country in history has expanded through Sahara into the North Africa from Sahel, or vice versa

The AI will clearly not be able to utilize them in a way that can respond to the player's use of the provinces without losing it's entire army to the attrition there

so why add them?

1. Multiple countries did, including a Moroccan Dynasty which put an end to Songhai's preeminence in the 1590s.
2. The routes and oases are extremely important for the Camel-borne Saharan trade.
3. In Egypt these oases have been occupied and controlled by Nile dynasties since the Old Kingdom period.
4. If the AI can't discern the risk of desert attrition it is fucked generally
 
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So what exactly is "sand" resource? I mean, that whole area is just a desert anyway. Also why aren't the maps bigger and split like Balkans thread. It's kind of hard to see zoomed all the way out like that.
 
So what exactly is "sand" resource? I mean, that whole area is just a desert anyway. Also why aren't the maps bigger and split like Balkans thread. It's kind of hard to see zoomed all the way out like that.
Beach Sand has unique properties not found in desert sand which makes it useful in industry. We have a sand shortage bcuz desert sand is too smooth for the purposes required
 
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Since we know Project Caesar allows us to build roads.

For desert corridors, are you able to build roads across these to connect your provinces? It was allowed in Imperator which was lovely, though I imagine (and hope, considering it was more micromanaging your army than planning a road network) that the road building system is different in this game. Building such roads seem like it would be very important to increase control to what is otherwise a detached part of your realm.
 
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Multiple countries did, including a Moroccan Dynasty which put an end to Songhai's preeminence in the 1590s.
what was the size of their army? I'ma bet it was no more than 5k soldiers. One incident (even if true, i havent bothered to check) can and should be safely ignored to protect the core mechanics of the game

2. The routes and oases are extremely important for the Camel-borne Saharan trade.
trade doesn't need locations physically being present
3. In Egypt these oases have been occupied and controlled by Nile dynasties since the Old Kingdom period.
Chukotka has been occupied and controlled by someone living there for tens of thousands of years, doesnt mean it shouldnt be a wasteland. Also I have strong doubts any of these oasises except for like Siwa/the ones within maybe 200 km of the nile river were occupied by the pharaohs in the 4th millenium b.c. but whatever

4. If the AI can't discern the risk of desert attrition it is fucked generally
Have you seen the AI in Paradox games? I've played basically every one released since circa 2009, they could never teach it attrition (among other things). It's the one thing that the AI still cheats in pdx games extensively. I half suspect there are actual algorithmic problems that prevent them from forcing attrition knowledge on the AI without slowing the game's speed to a crawl.


In EU4 IIRC the AI, for instance, to this day does not have naval attrition AT ALL

I'm just expecting nothing but these passes becoming a new favourite gimmick to win over an AI led country of any arbitrary size and thus breaking the MP as well (unless the lobby self-polices hard), sort of like how naval invasions work in Vicky 3 right now.
 
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How will Holy Sites and the Pilgrimages to the Holy sites be presented in game?
I would assume holding Mecca would generate a lot of income due to Pilgrims visiting it every year from around the world, or Christian Pilgrims visiting Jerusalem.
And would our Rulers get events related to going to Hajj (Pilgrimage to Mecca)?
Was there a tax? What where the income source that it would bring?

Also do you think it's required to pay for extra security which cost could balance the income?
 
There isn't a fixed date for the Tinto Maps Review posts, as some regions take more time than others, and we've also entered the summer period, so people have vacations, etc.
I wish all the best to you and recognize the importance of family and leisure times for the awesome devs who work tirelessly, but an evil part of me is sad that you live in European social democracies with good labor laws, not going to lie.
 
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For the mameluks:
-Aydhab should be a thing
-The emirate of barqa should start as a vassal of the mameluks, they would control anything west of tobruk, (tobruk would remain under mameluks control), you could also give them control of Awjila (as previously said control of the area is a bit unclear somyou could do that if you don't want to go the opm route)
-So should the sharifate of medina, also a mameluk vassal that should control anything south of Unluj, al-Ais Shajwa, this time those provinces included.
 
Currently, they're Catholics, yes:
View attachment 1162452

Sufficient for the time being.

I also really hope that Eastern-Catholics or Non-Latin Rites in general will be represented in an interesting way. Maybe akin to how the different patriarchies work in Orthodoxy ingame.

Imagine that if you as a Catholic Nation invaded a large Orthodox territory you could petition the pope to basically create a Rival to a matching Orthodox Patriarchate to create a new Eastern Catholic Church.
Exactly. Which is kinda how we got the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, though that was already territory of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

It would seem the IO system can easily incorporate this. I appreciate it might not be a high priority for launch, but an easy inclusion early post-release.
 
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what was the size of their army? I'ma bet it was no more than 5k soldiers. One incident (even if true, i havent bothered to check) can and should be safely ignored to protect the core mechanics of the game


trade doesn't need locations physically being present

Chukotka has been occupied and controlled by someone living there for tens of thousands of years, doesnt mean it shouldnt be a wasteland. Also I have strong doubts any of these oasises except for like Siwa/the ones within maybe 200 km of the nile river were occupied by the pharaohs in the 4th millenium b.c. but whatever


Have you seen the AI in Paradox games? I've played basically every one released since circa 2009, they could never teach it attrition (among other things). It's the one thing that the AI still cheats in pdx games extensively. I half suspect there are actual algorithmic problems that prevent them from forcing attrition knowledge on the AI without slowing the game's speed to a crawl.


In EU4 IIRC the AI, for instance, to this day does not have naval attrition AT ALL

I'm just expecting nothing but these passes becoming a new favourite gimmick to win over an AI led country of any arbitrary size and thus breaking the MP as well (unless the lobby self-polices hard), sort of like how naval invasions work in Vicky 3 right now.
This is a strange hill to die on. The Saadi invasion and its effects are still being felt today, it was monumental for west Africa, to the point it should probably be a situation
 
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But cultural, or just religious? Because in the cultural map doesn't seem to be any coptic cultural area.
Cultural. The culture colors might need to be made a bit more different, but they're there. I've also spoken about them:
Coptic people are quite important in Egypt, accounting for about 10% of the [total] population of the Mamlūk Sultanate [that includes Egypt, Syria, and Hejaz, so they're actually more than 10% of the population in Egypt] (...) Most of the Coptic are Miaphysite, adhering to the Patriarchate of Alexandria, although some of there still follow the Orthodoxy of Constantinople.
 
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In the market map mode, why is Crete colored blue and say 'Venice' on top of it? Does this mean that something is forcing the island to be in the Venetian market?
As a subject of Venice, it has better market access to its market, than to any other.
 
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why are you so keen on adding these oasises and their desert routes to every game? No country in history has managed to transport rasonable armies through the wastelands of Sahara, no country in history has expanded through Sahara into the North Africa from Sahel, or vice versa

The AI will clearly not be able to utilize them in a way that can respond to the player's use of the provinces without losing it's entire army to the attrition there

so why add them?
The Almoravids and Saadi are a bit in disagreement with that. Also take into account that those routes are used for trading in our game, so we can portray Saharan trading routes being part of the economic system.
 
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Using Eastern Berbers as a culture feels off to me. Berber is an exonym literally meaning barbarian, so it seems to me an Amazigh culture group would make more sense.

It also looks like these groups were highly divided (whichakes sense considering how much territory they stretched over).

The Eastern Berbers currently on the map should probably be represented as Isiwan in Siwa and Awjili in Awjila and Maradah. I know language isn't the only factor for cultural division, but the vast distances between the oases made these groups unique and these languages lasted until post-colonial Libya cracked down on Amazigh culture in the late 20th century.
 
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