Tinto Maps #11 - 19th of July 2024 - Scandinavia

[Johan]

Scania is a Swedish vassal? Union?

Can’t wait for next weeks chaos

dominion

 

[Johan]

Meänkieli is language though, right? It's right there in the name, so not exactly a culture. Which means calling the people who speak it Kven is a good idea.

yeah, i thought Kven was the better name, as it was used before the game start. Calling them Ostrobothnian is such a cringe name, as its a latinized name of a Swedish Colony name.

 

[Johan]

It's finally here! Some questions before I start preparing feedback for this region:

1. Being such an early map, is the province density in Finland and rest of the region something you're happy with or are you planning to increase it?

2. I know people always ask for zoomed in location maps, but could we also get a full location map of the region? It could give a better view of province density and how things connect into each other.

3. Could we also get an area map?

4. Is there some sort of a system for place names that existed during the timeframe of the game but don't make sense at game start? If not, do you have a policy for what level anachronisms are allowed? For example the city of Fredrikshamn was named after king Fredrik I who reigned in the 18th century, so the name doesn't make much sense in 1337. Similarly the castle of Olofsborg was built only in 1590.

5. Why does Sweden own Luleå without owning the locations connecting to it?

1 - no we wont increase it.
2 - i think someone posted one earlier here.
3 - no, its broken ugly atm
4 - its hard, as they were in many cases not much name sources 15th/16th centrury in many places.
5 - because they have enough swedes living there

 

[Johan]

Why does the location of Kolmården own the city of Nyköping and why does the location of Nyköping own the city of Södertälje?

Himmerfjärden is drawn FAR too much to the west.. should be here.

 

[Johan]

I don't know the history of the region, so there might be good reason for this, but why are there signficant parts of the northern swedish and finnish coastlines (around the gulf of bothnia), with majority swedish population, which are not owned by Sweden? Particularly on the finnish side of the gulf, there is a significant stretch of coastline which is majority swedish population, but I thought the main reason swedes lived anywhere in Finland would be because Sweden owned land there

Countries in 1337 where not really monolithic entities like today. People moved alot on their own, and with free farmers, the "there is lands with not much people that can be farmed not far from here" is a very tempting choice for a 2nd or 3rd son on a farm.

 

[Johan]

Is tar grouped with lumber? It was one of Finland's major exports during this the early modern era.

Tar is a produced good

 

[Johan]

I agree with the sentiment. Eastern Finland is rather hilly and rugged, but is represented as ”flatlands” since the hills don’t surpass 500 meter in height.

500 meters up and down is basically flatlands.

 

[Johan]

can we get population numbers in Finnmark?

yes

 

[Johan]

Would really appreciate a screenshot! That sounds about right for Finnmark, but way too low for Lofoten and Helgeland. I want to compare it properly with the census from 1769 for detailed data and good estimates from the 1600s (when Norway's population was back to around the same level as before the Black death).

 

[Johan]

5. ⁠Swedish should only be the Majority in Egentligen Finland, everywhere else it should be a ruling minority. The Ostrobothnian swedes hadn’t settled there by this point.

Sources?

Most swedish speakers that emigrated north went to the eastern side in the 14th and 13th century.

 

[Johan]

I see that Östra Götaland/ Östergötland, and Västra Götaland/ Västergötland, still hasn't been fixed. The counties (Landskap), are called Västergötland and Östergötland. They are part of the larger region of Götaland. If you want to refer to regions eastern half, you can say "Östra Götaland", but that's not the same as the county, even if the names mean the same thing. I'm really suprised I have to say this to a Swedish studio (I know the team is Spanish). You'd think some Swede would have seen the map of Scandinavia at some point during development?

In my household when I grew up, my father always said "nice to be back in Sweden" when we got back to Stockholm from being outside Mälardalen.. so yeah

 

[Johan]

Maybe even finnskoga would be more apropriate

Not sure I agree, as that name feels a few centuries more modern

 

[Johan]

This is not flatlands

View attachment 1165471

Looks very flat to me.

 

[Johan]

Shouldn't you be able to recreate the modern OTL Swedish-Finnish border?

Why?

 

[Johan]

With the current population setup, Finland is 30-40% Swedish, I did the math. The earliest concrete numbers for Swedish Speakers in Finland (I know of) are from 1610, three whole centuries of Swedish rule after the start date, when 17.5% of Finland spoke Swedish. The current culture breakdown is completely unjustifiable, especially when considering that Swedish settlement and rule would only further spread after 1337.

It will be tweaked..

 

[Johan]

An approximate suggestion for change, Rättvik being optional with the dashed line:

I'll add Rättvik as a location when Hell Freezes over.

My mothers family is from Leksand, and our ancestor was the first protestant preacher in the Church there.

 

[Johan]

On the note of copper and other metals.
The location of "Kopparberget" has copper, but unlike Falun, this copper was not yet discovered in 1337. It was discovered in 1624. I hope a Swedish source is ok.

Ljusnarsbergsfältet, Kopparberg - Bergslagen.se

Kongsberg did likewise not start large scale production until 1623. But was known by at least as early as 1400. Source in Norwegian.

Kongsberg sølvverk – Store norske leksikon

Kongsberg sølvverk var et norsk bergverk som var i drift i 335 år, fra 1623 til 1958. Det var landets største bergverk målt i arbeidsinnsats, med anslagsvis 300 000 nedlagte årsverk pluss omfattende sesongarbeid med skogsarbeid og kjøring. Verket var viktig for staten som produsent av myntmetall.

snl.no

If RGOs is going to be placed anachronistically then realistically there is a case to be made that Sala should have its RGO be silver. As mining activity started already in 1400s and had its peak during the early 1500s. Once again a Swedish source.

Historia och fakta - Sala Silvergruva

HISTORIA OCH FAKTA SVEA RIKES SKATTKAMMARE Sala silvergruva har en lång och brokig historia som förstås berättas allra bäst på plats av våra skickliga guider. För dig som vill skaffa dig en uppfattning om platsen innan ditt besök hos oss, följer här ett antal korta fakta och en tidslinje med...

www.salasilvergruva.se

There is a DHE for Sala silver mine

Kongsberg, well.. it need a similar treatment.

 

[Johan]

Which I think is a list of points that you'd agree to as well. There is also that having few, large provinces would concentrate population and make infrastructure building easier, while having more that is spread out does the opposite. Whether it is more boring who knows, but I'd say those challenges more accurately reflect the challenge for the country at least. Several parts of road network in this area was built within the last 50 years, if there is two locations in an area with a decently concentrated population it instead becomes a nobrainer to do.

This would make this area be one of the densest in locations in Europe, but also very depopulated, and basically useless.

 

[Johan]

That's probably what he meant...still half of the locations have 100/200 pops even if they grow rapidly dependig on what's the highest limit of how many pops you can convert per month, I can see half of the locations in Finland being Swedish by the year 1500

Why would you as a player waste your government doing that? And it still would take 150+ years.

 

[Johan]

I feel like the hill/flatland decision should be reevaluated. Surely it should match how rugged the terrain actually is, not just be a matter of height.

Its how rugged it is, but peaks of 350 meters from 150meters a few km away is basically flatlands.