Tinto Maps #11 - 19th of July 2024 - Scandinavia

[ArVass]

Yeah but there are way more people in the balcans than Sandinavia, if let's say, Sweden can convert 20 people per year, they would be able to convert the vast majority of these locations in less than 50 years

I have a feeling that this is mostly based on a population percentage rather than a flat value. Like half-life; every pop has an X% chance of assimilating per year, which is of course influenced by government policies, distance from capital or from locations of the colonizer culture, whether if there are already people of the colonizer culture in the location and how many (you can't assimilate if you have no exposure to that culture), etc. I do hope they won't just all get instantly assimilated by Sweden

 

[Kaspar Osraige]

Kola Peninsula and Karelian coastline should definitely be Saami by the way, but I do not think Saami should be divided into its subcultures as it is a small numbered culture and it didn't use to be this divergent probably. Other than that, with a slightly bigger Tavastian, Uralic cultures here would be looking fine I suppose.

 

[Daniel the Finlander]

Another thing real quick, Sami should be WAY more widespread in Finland. And like another post said, the culture should be split. Here is a ”culture map” from 1200s, with those big white areas with ”saamelaiset” all being sparsely populated by Sami. Finns took a while to spread inland. I can dig up more detailed information later.

(The colors are finnish tribes
green=finns
grey=tavastians
brown=ostrobothnians [that you call Kven]
yellow=savonians
brownish yellow=karelians
blue line on the coast shows division between finnish and swedish languages)

EDIT: More ”sources” (wikipedia lol)

 

[ArVass]

Very nice! Could we get an area map, though?

Pretty please?

 

[Dongerino]

You should make Amager into its own location

EDIT: Also with its own Amar'kaner culture

 

[Tom Bombadill]

Visingsö should, IMHO, be its own location. On the southern tip of the island stood Näs Slott, Sweden's first royal castle. During the 13th century it was the center of the Swedish crown and was used as treasury. Altough the castle was destroyed in the beginning of the 14th century, because of the historical relevance of the island I still think it deserves to be its own location.
Ignoring the castle that was destroyed the island was of vital importance in the conflicts between Östergötland and Västergötland.
The only argument, I think, for it not being a location is that it is to small, but can't it be made so you are redirected to this location when one presses on Vättern?

 

[Tokci]

I have a feeling that this is mostly based on a population percentage rather than a flat value. Like half-life; every pop has an X% chance of assimilating per year, which is of course influenced by government policies, distance from capital or from locations of the colonizer culture, whether if there are already people of the colonizer culture in the location and how many (you can't assimilate if you have no exposure to that culture), etc. I do hope they won't just all get instantly assimilated by Sweden

I hope so it will be like this as it makes more sense. I might have been mistaken, but until know it seemed to be more flat value oriented not percent.

 

[Dongerino]

Wouldn't it be better to just call the Bornholm location Bornholm?

 

[Pescavelho]

Kola Peninsula and Karelian coastline should definitely be Saami by the way, but I do not think Saami should be divided into its subcultures as it is a small numbered culture and it didn't use to be this divergent probably. Other than that, with a slightly bigger Tavastian, Uralic cultures here would be looking fine I suppose.

I don't know if the Sámi had spread to Kola at this time, if they had, then I don't think there's much of a point in a Bjarmian culture existing, just make White Karelia and the southern parts of the Kola Peninsula Karelian culture.

Another thing real quick, Sami should be WAY more widespread in Finland. And like another post said, the culture should be split. Here is a ”culture map” from 1200s, with those big white areas with ”saamelaiset” all being sparsely populated by Sami. Finns took a while to spread inland. I can dig up more detailed information later.

(The colors are finnish tribes
green=finns
grey=tavastians
brown=ostrobothnians [that you call Kven]
yellow=savonians
brownish yellow=karelians
blue line on the coast shows division between finnish and swedish languages)

View attachment 1165248

Definitely not as big as you've shown in your map. But the innermost bits of Kven (Ostrobothnian) culture shown in the map should definitely be Sámi. It was settled by Savonians rather than Ostrobothnians and such dialects are spoken there today.

 

[Johan]

I presume there's gonna be a devision to "found" Copenhagen right?

Its a Dynamic Historical Event for Denmark.

 

[Johan]

Can you tell us what international organization are in the region?

Catholic Church, and pretty sure Slesvig is partially in HRE

 

[Millero15]

Thanks for the new Tinto Maps, finally covering our Northern Home! I also have a few thoughts regarding Finland:

- Finland is a very swampy country, a very sizable part of Finland today is wetlands, in the Middle Ages certainly even more so. I don’t have exact maps or data on me right now, but there definitely should be a lot more marsh in Finland.

- Could we see a more precise population breakdown of the Finnish provinces? I feel like the Swedish population might be overrepresented here. The earliest estimate I could find quickly was from 1610, when 17.5% of the population of Finland was Swedish-speaking, according to Wikipedia. And Swedish settlement in Finland was still in progress when the game starts.

- Is the scale of Finnish population growth taken into account somehow? Finland had about 20-40k people in 1150, not sure about 1337, but in any case 1.4 million by the game’s end. And this is despite humanitaria catastrophes, like the Greater Wrath, the Russian occupation during the Great Northern War.

- Is there a mechanic of some kind for Tavastian, Savonian, and also Karelian pops assimilating to Finnish when converting to Catholicism or (later) Lutheranism? Consider that the main historical difference between ”Finns” and ”Karelians” was religion (Western vs. Eastern Christianity) and allegiance (Sweden vs. Novgorod/Russia).

I’m sure I could get some reliable academic sources if I had the time, or someone else could. I’m also interested in the sources you’re making use of for Finland, I’d read through them very eagerly myself.

 

[Johan]

View attachment 1165217

Sorry if someone else's asked, are those gray stripes wartime occupation?
Are the orders and the Lithuanians in the middle of a war in 1337?

yes

 

[Johan]

Johan, why do y'all barely ever show the area map, by the way? Is it a secret or something?

cause we have a bug where seazone names overlaps everything so it looks like shit there.

 

[Johan]

Do the Sami and other uncentralized people have a landless tag or other stuff to represent them other than culture/ are they playable ?

We will talk about them in a Tinto Talks later on

 

[Johan]

It's really nice of you guys having so many Finno-Ugric cultures in the game considering they are all gonna di...culture converted in like 100 years

how?

 

[Johan]

That... looks like a LOT of free real estate ready for the taking/colonization in the northern part of the map.

Not sure I'd use the word "free"

 

[Johan]

You actually made Scane Danish and even made them playable? You're not Swedish afterall.

They are ruled by Sweden

 

[Millero15]

Thanks for the new Tinto Maps, finally covering our Northern Home! I also have a few thoughts regarding Finland:

- Finland is a very swampy country, a very sizable part of Finland today is wetlands, in the Middle Ages certainly even more so. I don’t have exact maps or data on me right now, but there definitely should be a lot more marsh in Finland.

- Could we see a more precise population breakdown of the Finnish provinces? I feel like the Swedish population might be overrepresented here. The earliest estimate I could find quickly was from 1610, when 17.5% of the population of Finland was Swedish-speaking, according to Wikipedia. And Swedish settlement in Finland was still in progress when the game starts.

- Is the scale of Finnish population growth taken into account somehow? Finland had about 20-40k people in 1150, not sure about 1337, but in any case 1.4 million by the game’s end. And this is despite humanitaria catastrophes, like the Greater Wrath, the Russian occupation during the Great Northern War.

- Is there a mechanic of some kind for Tavastian, Savonian, and also Karelian pops assimilating to Finnish when converting to Catholicism or (later) Lutheranism? Consider that the main historical difference between ”Finns” and ”Karelians” was religion (Western vs. Eastern Christianity) and allegiance (Sweden vs. Novgorod/Russia).

I’m sure I could get some reliable academic sources if I had the time, or someone else could. I’m also interested in the sources you’re making use of for Finland, I’d read through them very eagerly myself.

Adding to this, I think Early Modern Finland had the highest relative population growth in Europe at the time, being at least on the same level as pre-famine Ireland.

 

[Rule Britannia]

A few comments on Denmark which I know better than the rest of region:

All of the below suggested towns existed in 1337 and were important in Danish history. I am working on a British keyboard so forgive me for not using the specific danish letters in the names.

Provinces I would suggest adding:
Copenhagen: The city did exist in 1337 with its foundation normally attribute to Bishop Absalone 1128-1201. Even though it is only in the 1500s that it becomes the most important city in the country and the capital, I am very puzzled that it is not even on the map. Either carve it out of Roskilde and Helsingor or get rid of Helsingor instead if you think the locations otherwise are too small. If I remember correctly Kronborg and Helsingor did not actually exist in 1337, though I do like its inclusion if not at the expense of Copenhagen. I would also move Roskilde a little to the west.
Korsor: I would split Kalundborg in two and call the southern location Korsor.
Vordingborg: I would split Ringsted into two and add Vordingborg in the south.
Nykobing Falster: I would split Nakskow and have Falster as a separate location called Nykobing Falster.
Nyborg: Should be added on the eastern part of Fyn.
Svendborg: Should be added to the south east of Fyn and include the small Islands immediately to the south east of Fyn. I would place Odense in the centre and north of the island, Nyborg to the east, Svendborg to the south east, and then Assens or alternatively Middelfart to the west of the Island.
Tonder: This should be added to the south west of Jutland south of Ribe as it is an old important trading city. It originally had a harbour but later lost this due to the building of dikes.

Provinces I would change:
I do not know where you have the name Kalo from, but I would suggest calling it either Djursland or Greenaa.
I would change Skagen and Hjorring so that Skagen is to the North and Hjoring to the south rather than an east west border.


Implementing these changes may leave Jutland a little less dense in terms of locations compared with the Islands, but that is probably a good representation of the density of important cities historically. However, if you want a few more suggestions for Jutland, I can try and dig some up.