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Tinto Maps #12 - 26th of July 2024 - Germany

Hello, and welcome to another new Tinto Maps! I’m back to duty, after the review of Italy that we posted last Thursday, and Johan taking care of Scandinavia last Friday. Today we will be taking a look at Germany! This region comprises the modern territories of Czechia, Austria, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein. However, for most of the timeline in Project Caesar, it was better known as the Holy Roman Empire. This organization once was a feudal empire elevated from the Kingdom of the Germans, but by 1337 was mostly disaggregated into a multitude of temporal and ecclesiastical jurisdictions, with only a tenuous feudal relationship with their Emperor.

Let’s start diving deep into this nightmare, then…

Countries:
Countries.png

I’m showing here a bit more of what the region is, so you can have a clear depiction of how it looks compared to the neighboring regions we’ve previously shown (and so that the Reddit guy who is patchworking the world map has an easier day ). What I can say about this when the map speaks for itself… The lands of Germany are highly fractured among different principalities, making for an extremely complex political situation. The Emperor in 1337 was Louis IV von Wittelsbach of Upper Bavaria… Because, yes, Bavaria is also divided. He is married to Margaret of Avesnes, daughter of Count William of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeleand, while his son Louis is the Margrave of Brandenburg. But probably the strongest power of the period is the Kingdom of Bohemia, whose king John also Duke Luxembourg and rules over both lands in a personal union, while also being overlord of the Margraviate of Moravia, ruler by his son Charles, and the Silesian principalities. The third contender probably is the Duchy of Austria, ruled by Albert II von Habsburg. He also rules over some lands in the formed Duchies of Swabia and Carinthia. There are also plenty of medium and small countries all over the region, with very different forms of government, which will probably make this HRE a very replayable experience…

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

The dynastical map of the HRE gives a nice picture of the situation explained in the previous one. The von Wittelsbach, de Luxembourg (John of Bohemia is considered of French culture, therefore it uses the French toponymic article ‘de’; if he would change to the German culture, then it would be the ‘von Luxembourg’ dynasty), and von Habsburg cover much of the map; you may note that the Wittelsbach rule over five different countries (Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria, the Palatinate of the Rhine, and Brandenburg); while the House of Luxembourg also control the Archbishopric of Trier through Balduin, uncle of King John. Other important dynasties, although in a secondary position, are the Welfen, von Mecklenburg, and Gryf, present in multiple countries to the north; the Askanier, who happen to control half of Upper Saxony, while the rest is in the hands of the von Wettin; and the von Görz, who rule over the Duchy of Tirol and the County of Gorizia.

HRE:
HRE.png

We obviously have to repost the HRE IO map again here. The purple stripes mark the imperial territory, while the different types of members use different colors. We currently have these divisions in the IO: the Emperor (1, dark blue), Prince-Electors (4, light blue), Archbishop-Electors (3, medium blue), Free Imperial Cities (23, light green), Imperial Peasant Republics (2, orange), Imperial Prelates (44, white), and Regular Members (280, dark green). So, yeah, that make for a total of 357 countries that are part of the HRE. And before you ask: No, we won’t talk about its mechanics today, that will happen in future Tinto Talks.

Locations:
Locations.png

Locations 2.png

Locations 3.png

Locations 4.png

Locations 5.png
Germany has the highest density of locations in the world, as we wanted to portray the historical fragmentation of the HRE at the most detailed level of any Paradox GSG. There are a couple of things that we are aware of and we want to rework: the location connections (as in some places they are not obvious at all, and we want to make warfare in the HRE not impossible); and the transition between the German locations and those at their east, making it smoother (something that we will be doing in the review of Poland, Hungary and this region [e.g. for Bohemia]). A final comment: if you click on the spoiler button, you may be able to see 4 more detailed maps of the region.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

Map of provinces. As usual, suggestions are welcomed.

Areas:
Areas.png

Areas. We are currently not happy with the area borders (or at least, one of our German content designers isn't, and let me note it while preparing the DD... ;) ), as they reflect more modern areas so we will be looking into an alternative setup for them with your feedback. They also currently use their German names, which will change to English ones to be in line with other areas, as usual.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Terrain mapmodes. The region is quite forested, in comparison to other parts of Europe.

Culture:
Cultures.png

Let’s open the Pandora box and take a look at the cultures! The German cultures have come through a couple of reworks, until we’ve found a spot in which we’re kind of happy (or, at least, our German content designers do not complain!). The German cultures are very linguistically related, as we thought that it would be the best starting point for 1337. Please let us know about your thoughts on them.

Religion:
Religion.png

Boring religion map this week, as the region is overwhelmingly Catholic. There are Ashkenazi Jews in a bunch of places (a quick account: they’re present in 204 locations all over Central and Eastern Europe), and you may also see the Waldesians we added in the review of Italy last week.

Raw Materials:
Raw materials.png

Raw materials! Plenty of!

Markets:
Markets.png

The main market centers of the region are Cologne, Lúbeck, and Prague. We have reviewed them a couple of times, and this is the configuration that makes for a good setup historical and gameplay-wise. And you may also see Bruges, which has been reinstated as the main market of the Low Countries, after some tweaks.

Country and Location Population:
Population.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png

Populations 4.png
The population of the HRE is… Fragmented. In that regard, Bohemia starts in a very strong position, with a strong competitor to its south (Austria) and north (Brandenburg).

And that’s it for today! I hope that we didn’t drive you into madness with this map… Next week we will take to a very different region, the Maghreb! See you then!
 
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Considering family trees and dynastic characters are a thing,can we set up our heir to inherit some county in the HRE by strategic marriage?or are marriages only improve relations modifiers?
Yes, it's something you can do.
 
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Noted the ideas, and we will take a more detailed look at them when we review the map. About the questions:
1. The Free City.
2. Not currently, it's strategic indeed per se.
3. A bit local, I'm sorry to say.
4. Hmm, not currently; are there any other examples of Reichsgut territories changing sides just before or after the Golden Bull?
5. It's on our radar to do some stuff regarding historical Leagues, although we want to do first the Swiss Confederacy as a testing ground of how it would work (which will happen soon), and also the map review of Germany.
I'd suggest to change Konstanz to the Bishopric. The Bishopric was next to Württemberg the most important political leader (Kreisausschreibamt = director) of the Swabian Circle.
 
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What about the Polabian exclave north of Stettin?
Honestly, it's hard to say. All the information I can find indicates that the territory north and south of the indicated location was more heavily settled from around the mid-13th century. The same sources also say nothing about this area (apart from traditional mentions of land grants), which is still densely forested to this day.
 
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View attachment 1169338
A slightly fixed version.

1: Wied, Wied (Westerwald)
2: Montabaur, Trier (Westerwald)
3: Katzenellenbogen, Katzenellenbogen (Mittelrhein)
4: Wiesbaden, Nassau (Rheingau)
5: Bingen, Mainz (Rheingau)
6: Mainz, Mainz (Rheingau)
7: Alzey, Palatinate (???)
8: Kaiserslautern, Trier (???)
9: Leiningen, Leiningen (???)
10: Cochem/Mayen, Trier (Mosel)
11: Koblenz, Trier (Mittelrhein)
12: Wittlich, Trier (Mosel)
13: Trier, Trier (Mosel)
14: Saarburg/Merzig, Trier (Saargau)
15: Schaumburg/Tholey, Lorraine (???)
16: Birkenfeld, Sponheim (Nahegau)
17: Lichtenberg, Veldenz (???)
18: Kirburg/Grumbach, Wildgrafen (Nahegau)
19: Trarbach/Kastellaun/Kirchberg, Sponheim (Mosel/Nahegau)
20: Kreuznach, Sponheim (Nahegau)
21: Simmern, Trier (Mittelrhein)
It was called Katzenelnbogen and not Katzenellenbogen.
Do you intend to draw the entire Holy Roman Empire/Germany?
Maybe
 
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I want EU5 not so european centric as eu4. In this game I want to see Indian and Chinese shine too because they are the super power of the the ancient world and most of the medieval world too. Just some reforms which is only available for Indian and Chinese empires has in the decision and a chance to colonize the new world with their own colonial system after fulfilling some condition in the game.
 
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Does someone know what the Brückenau tag represents? Are those some unruly rebels that fight against Fulda?
 
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The borders of Salzburg are wrong. The whole of Zillertal (Location Zell am Ziller) belonged to Salzburg until 1816.
Same with Wörgl. The village itself belonged to Tyrol/Bavaria (changed hands a lot) but the Hinterland (Brixenthal/Brixental) belonged to Salzburg.

My suggestion: Change owner of Locations Zell am Ziller and Wörgl to Salzburg but rename Wörgl Brixental

Source: https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/B48AAOSwPf1kt-Xr/s-l1200.webp

Can look for more when I am not on phone but that should do it.
 
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The borders of Salzburg are wrong. The whole of Zillertal (Location Zell am Ziller) belonged to Salzburg until 1816.
Same with Wörgl. The village itself belonged to Tyrol/Bavaria (changed hands a lot) but the Hinterland (Brixenthal/Brixental) belonged to Salzburg.

My suggestion: Change owner of Locations Zell am Ziller and Wörgl to Salzburg but rename Wörgl Brixental

Source: https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/B48AAOSwPf1kt-Xr/s-l1200.webp

Can look for more when I am not on phone but that should do it.
This is why I would suggest renaming it to Itter
1716131387469.png
 
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We wanted to start with a smaller region, so people could get used to the granularity of the map and the feedback workflow we wanted to implement, before going into wider regions.

I'd have to check in detail, but approximately 10-12M.
Dear @Pavía

I manually counted the HRE taking care not to double count tags with split territory and I counted 28.5M population for the HRE without Italian parts. For just the "German" regions (no Netherlands, no Bohemia, no Italy again) and I counted still 20.5M. This is pretty far from "10-12M".

I also counted 227 tags without the Italy parts and you said there are 357 countries in the HRE on the original post. I see some 30 noth italy tags in the HRE, meaning it would be 257 in total. I find it hard to believe I missed 100 tags.

Questions:
1. Am I crazy?
2. Could you share the actual total population for the HRE? With and without Italy if possible.
3. Are there landless tags in the "357 countries that are part of the HRE" number?
 
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1722279506698.png

Aschersleben should probably be a seperate tag from Halberstadt in the location of Aschersleben. They were closely allied alongside Quedlinburg in the Halberstadt three city league however they werent actually united.
 
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There should be at least one farmland in Bohemia and one in Moravia. Moravia was always very important for its agriculture. In Bohemian part there is Elbe and for Moravia the river Morava is also important for whole region. In CK in both of the regions there are farmlands and not only one. But the biggest argument for it is the map of soil quality. With Chernozem as highest rank for soil quality, we can see Chernozem in north/Middle Bohemia and in south Moravia. Also Moravia is also region where is end of the chernozem soil belt, which goes across Ukraine and Hungaria. Chernozem also known as black soil or black dirt. Also we can see that Opava region Is luvisol which is also very fertile type of soil, and the Opava province is not completely hilled area, especially when we look on the map on Google maps with nowadays polish land there could be seen mostly flat land places. But back to Moravia and Bohemia, there is reason why South Moravia was center of Great Moravia (High quality soil, good agriculture conditions) and then after it's collapse due to Hungarian invasion and inheritance wars. The Premyslid dynasty, that hold power in are of Prague that is near to second place with best soil in Czechia were the winners in establishing the power over other lands.
1000005937.png


Also on this map we can see that areas in Moravia has the same green colour as areas with farmlands in game placed in Hungaria/ Slovakia.
1000005941.png

There I am adding more of the maps of Moravian soil quality.
1000005942.png


I do not have time right know, but also is worth to mention that nowdays the soil in Moravia is in soil degradation risk due to communist agriculture and overusing the land, but this is more common knowledge without arguments.

Btw map of meters above sea level - Opava Is green so the lowest in map size measures. Elevation in nowdays Opava administrative area is only 257 (Wikipedia information), but when we add some areas from nowdays Poland, which are in game Opava the elevation will be lesser, because there are almost no hills.
1000005945.jpg

In historic point of view I want to say that countries capitals where usually near to agriculture centre of the country. The capital of Egyptian empire was on Nile. London also near to good soil in the isles, Wien, Paris, even Krakow near agriculture centre of the country or in the case of bigger ones at least on good spot in case of land quality, because farming was one of the most important thing for long period of people history (after they settled down). Prague and "Velehrad" were also in such spot (agriculture centre of the land)

Thank you for your work.
 
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This is the current list of Swiss tags, per type:

Monarchies
1. Genève
2. Neuchâtel
3. Langenthal
4. Turn
5. Werdenberg

Republics
1. Solothurn
2. Bienne
3. Lucerne
4. Obwalden
5. Schwyz
6. Uri
7. St. Gallen
8. Como

Cities
1. Bern
2. Zürich

Bishoprics
1. Lausanne
2. Bassel
3. Sion
4. Glarus
5. Chur

Any suggestions regarding them are pretty welcomed, of course.

For almost all of them, I'm on board with how you handled the tags and their respective types, except for Solothurn, Bienne, and Glarus.

I would lean more towards Solothurn being categorized as a city rather than a republic. This is based on the fact that it is debatable whether Solothurn had already become a Free Imperial City or was in the process of becoming one, given the privileges it had already been granted (hls-dhs-dss.ch/de/articles/001174/2012-12-20/ Point 2.1).

Bienne as a republic seems appropriate, but it should be a vassal of the Bishopric of Basel. This is because, de jure, the lands were part of the bishopric, although the city of Bienne had already begun signing Burgrecht (a sort of protectorate with the city being the leading party) pacts with surrounding nobles, monasteries, and cities. This led to Bern and Bienne historically fighting alongside each other against Basel (hls-dhs-dss.ch/de/articles/000222/2018-01-23/ Point 2.1).

Glarus should be a vassal of the Habsburgs (and therefore Austria) or completely integrated into them. It being a bishopric is rather strange given that the monastery, which held certain rights, is more than 100 km away in Bad Säckingen. Due to this distance, most of the rights were exercised by the Habsburgs, who tried to integrate it further into their realm. Because of this, Glarus was conquered in 1351 by Zürich, Lucerne, and Waldstätte as part of a feud with the Habsburgs (hls-dhs-dss.ch/de/articles/007374/2017-05-30/ Points 2.1 and 2.2.1).

Will there be some sort of map mode that paints the countries based on their type?
 
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Hi! Where do you see Zelland? Because we don't have any instance of that word in the game files...
Hi good to see a response and know my feedback is being read by the great Pavia. I was just referring to your introduction text which misspelled Zeeland as Zelland. I hope you will consider or even implement my suggestion for the Bentheimer resource ;)
 
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This is the current list of Swiss tags, per type:

Monarchies
1. Genève
2. Neuchâtel
3. Langenthal
4. Turn
5. Werdenberg

Republics
1. Solothurn
2. Bienne
3. Lucerne
4. Obwalden
5. Schwyz
6. Uri
7. St. Gallen
8. Como

Cities
1. Bern
2. Zürich

Bishoprics
1. Lausanne
2. Bassel
3. Sion
4. Glarus
5. Chur

Any suggestions regarding them are pretty welcomed, of course.
  • Genève is a tricky one. The counts of Genève held no power in the city proper; it was held in imperial immediacy by the archbishop. The larger influence in the area and real threats to the power of the archbishopric were house Savoy, who would rile up the burghers against their theocratic rulers, which would ultimately lead to the city being granted rights equal to a free city, eschewing control of either.
  • I can't read it on the map, but Langenthal should be under house (Neu-)Kyburg. (Huh, there they are after all!)
  • St. Gallen is again a tricky case. While the city was emancipating itself throughout the 14th century, by 1337 the prince-abbey did probably still hold relatively firm control over it.
  • Basel is in a similar position, with a city soon to break free from its archbishop. While the city would only achieve de-facto independence around 1360-1390, by 1310 they already had independent diplomacy. They could potentially be portrayed as an unruly vassal of sorts.
  • Sion is most curious, as it is a Bishop ruling over what was effectively a federation of 7 semi-independent republics. Nevertheless, the bishop remained in power until post-1500.
  • Glarus is a weird one, @yaene has it put nicely a few posts further up.
Other than that, I'm also not sure how you draw the line between city and republic, e.g. in the case of Solothurn.
 
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