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Tinto Maps #13 - 2nd of August 2024 - Maghreb

Hello, and welcome one more week to another Tinto Maps, where we assemble several maps for the shake of it (well, also to gather feedback, I guess). After the nightmarish maps of last week, we’re showing a much less fragmented region this week, the Maghreb. Let’s take a look at it, then.

Countries:
Countries 1.jpg

Countries 2.jpg

This week I’m showing two versions of the country map, one without colored wastelands, and another with them colored (please take into account that some work still needs to be done regarding the coloring of the corridors). Only four new countries are to be shown this week (as Fezzan already appeared some weeks ago). First is first, there are dynamic keys for them similar to the Mamluks, so their full name in the game are ‘Marinid Sultanate of Morocco’, ‘Zayyanid Sultanate of Tlemcen, and ‘Hafsid Sultanate of Tunis’ (Tripoli starts with a random ruler, as we weren’t able to find which was the reigning dynasty in 1337). The main power in this period is the Marinid dynasty, ruling from Fās, after grabbing the power from the Almohads almost a century ago. They start at war with the Zayyanids of Tlemcen, and its capital is close to falling to the mighty Sultan Abu al-Hasan ‘Ali. They also have a foothold in Iberia, around Algeciras and Ronda, which may lead to future campaigns about the control of the Strait of Gibraltar.

Diplomacy.jpg

And this is the starting diplomatic situation between Morocco and Tlemcen, with the capital of the latter almost surrounded by the former...

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

Here we have the three main dynasties of the Maghreb in 1337, the Marinids, the Zayyanids, and the Hafsids. Apart from those, the dynasties of Tripoli and Fezzan are randomly generated, as we don’t know who was ruling in those places at that specific time.

Locations:
Locations.png

Locations 2.png

Locations 3.png
Here are the maps of the locations. In the first, you may see the corridors (the non-named locations) connecting the Maghreb with the Saharan inner lands and oases. Regarding the location density, we might want to increase it in a few places (that Siṭṭāt location is too big compared to its neighbors, for instance).

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We’re open to suggestions for the provinces, as usual.

Areas:
Areas.png

The areas of the Maghreb correspond to their historical division (al-Aqṣā, al-Awsat, al-Adna, and Tripoli). The northern section of the Sahara is split in two areas, the Western Sahara, and the Sahara Oases.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

Better late than never!

Cultures:
Cultures.png

The cultural division of the region is very, very interesting, we think. The first thing that I want to stress is that we’ve divided the most Arabized zones from the more traditionally Berber ones. The more Arabized cultures are the Moroccan, Algerian, Tunisian, Lybian, and the Hassaniya tribe, in the western Sahara. Meanwhile, the Berber-speaking peoples are divided into Masmuda, and Sanhaja in al-Maġrib al-Aqṣā; the Zenati in al-Maġrib al-Awsat; the Kabylian, Chaoui, and Mozabite in al-Maġrib al-Adna; and the Eastern Berber (a name that we will probably change, given the feedback already received in the Egyptian Tinto Maps) in Tripoli. The Berber-speaking Tuareg and the Saharan-speaking Toubou inhabit the central Saharan Oases.

Religions:
Religions.png

Most of the region’s population practices Sunni Islam, with a very important zone where Ibadism is the majority, more or less corresponding with Mozabite and Eastern Berbers. Although it’s not shown on the map, there are two religious minorities present, the Mustaʿravi Jews, in a bunch of urban centers across the region, and some native Christians spread through al-Maġrib al-Adna.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.png

The Maghreb is very rich in different materials, especially Morocco (which was used a long time ago as a ‘RGO-gameplay’ testing ground by our QAs). The Saharan corridor is way less productive, but it’s somehow important for the next map…

Markets:
Markets.png

The market centers of the region are placed in Fās and Al-Jazā'ir, which makes for good market access and distribution for the start of the game, in general terms. You might notice that trading happens across the corridors, which makes for a real connection between the markets to the north and south of the Sahara in 1337. This means that we can effectively simulate the trading of Saharan and sub-Saharan goods (salt, alum, gold, ivory) to the north until maybe some European countries decide to explore down the African coast and make direct trading in the Gulf of Guinea, avoiding the Maghrebi intermediaries.

Population:
Population.png

Population 2.png

Population 3.png
The population of the region is around 5,5M, with an interesting distribution: al-Maġrib al-Aqṣā and al-Maġrib al-Adna have more or less a similar population, with al-Maġrib al-Awsat having half of them, and Tripoli and Saharan Oases being way less populated.

And that’s all for this week! The next one we will travel across the Sahara, and take a look at the region of Western Africa. See you!
 
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I don't have any feedback to provide (other than tell you to keep iterating on the raw goods map colours!), but I do have a genuine question:

Why is Fezzan a country in 1337? I had this question since the Egypt Tinto Maps and a quick google search did not provide me with any definitive answer as to who controlled the region in the 14th century. The answer I was seeing most often, including on Wikipedia, is that some parts of the region were ruled by the Kanem Bornu Empire, though, it's unclear to which extent.
The situation is similar with the nation of Tripoli presented in today's maps. The wiki says in the 14th century it was ruled by the Hafsid sultanate (also present on the map), but you chose to split it off into a separate sovereign entity for some reason.
Nowhere could I find anything about an independent nation of Fezzan or Tripoli, but I assume the developer's decision to include them in the game must be based on SOMETHING.
So I would really like to be enlightened by some map game nerd about what that "something" is.

EDIT: Looking through the thread I've noticed a mention of a certain "Banu Thabit" dynasty that apparently ruled the Tripoli region independently from the Hafsids in the 14th century. That pretty much answers my second part of the question. A bit weird they aren't actually represented on the dynasty map though.
 
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I find it bizarre to prefer Al-Maghrib Al-Adna to Ifriqiya. That was the name the region went by locally (and in the Arab Speaking world) until after the Ottoman conquest. I know that both names are interchangeable, but Ifriqiya has a more cultural connotation. If you consult Arabic books from the period, they say that such and such city is in Ifriqiya.
 
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For next week when you say Western Africa do you mean from Pointe des Almadies all the way to lake Chad cuz that's a very big region?
Yes. It's a big region, but we think that it makes a lot of sense geographically speaking to do it that way.
 
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I find it bizarre to prefer Al-Maghrib Al-Adna to Ifriqiya. That was the name the region went by locally (and in the Arab Speaking world) until after the Ottoman conquest. I know that both names are interchangeable, but Ifriqiya has a more cultural connotation. If you consult Arabic books from the period, they say that such and such city is in Ifriqiya.
It would also serve as a better name for Tunis in my opinion.
 
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Very cool.

At an initial glance, it looks like Morocco and Tunis are in a much better and stronger place than they were in EU4, whether we are speaking in absolute terms or in their relative strength against Castile.

Am I correct?
Morocco starts in a very strong position, with Tlemcen close to being conquered or subjected; but it needs to be careful, as Castile might set its eyes upon its foothold in Iberia, and it has to manage the internal divisions of the Maghreb.
 
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Good DD. Can you block trade in the Saharan corridor?
You can embargo the countries that control the locations connected by the corridors.
 
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Any chance we could get a look at these minorities?

I assume there’s some way to see minority populations that are too small to show on the normal map mode, right? Not a question I’ve thought about until now. Something like highlighting said religion to show where it is in the world, regardless of how prevalent they are in any one spot.
We have planned to have something akin to Imperator regarding this, but it needs some more work.
 
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Should it?
I think so, I didn't found anything saying it was indipendent to begin with, every map portrays it as part of Tunis with maybe some locations in the east being under mamluk influence, I'm pretty sure the city itself may have had some sort of autonomous government though.
 
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To be honest, take it a bit as a placeholder. We wanted a second market center in Maghreb, as one was obviously not enough, and we initially set it up in Tunis; however, with the old calculations, it was getting most of the trade in Sicily and Sardinia, over Naples and Genoa, so we changed to Algiers, which worked much better for gameplay balance. We may give it another try in the map review, as the calculations have changed since we did that (you may have an example of this happening some Tinto Maps ago, with the market center of the Low Countries).
Figured that was the reason! Perhaps having Naples deny market access (or whichever diplomatic action stops your locations from being in their market) to Tunis at the start would fix that?

Or perhaps including location/market owner religious group into the calculations, which seems broadly useful for other markets as well
 
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Morocco starts in a very strong position, with Tlemcen close to being conquered or subjected; but it needs to be careful, as Castile might set its eyes upon its foothold in Iberia, and it has to manage the internal divisions of the Maghreb.

A very enlightening answer, which makes me wonder something else...

Does this imply it's generally possible to sweep 1M pops in a war (Tlemcen's population), or is there some kind of special CB at play - Or is it because they both share cultural characteristics?

I am sure the answer will be revealed in time in other diaries.

However, overall, I'm pleased by the way this region looks. Speaking from an EU4 multiplayer enthusiast's perspective, Morocco and Tunis (Even if allied) were always doomed to be crushed underfoot by the Iberians. While the situation is still Iberian-favored, it looks like Morocco and Tunis have a much better chance of success. This will lead to a more dynamic and vibrant situation in the region, which is good. The less countries have glaringly obvious power gaps, the better the game's health is and the more interesting it is to play.
 
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Hello, and welcome one more week to another Tinto Maps, where we assemble several maps for the shake of it (well, also to gather feedback, I guess). After the nightmarish maps of last week, we’re showing a much less fragmented region this week, the Maghreb. Let’s take a look at it, then.

Countries:
View attachment 1170526
View attachment 1170527
This week I’m showing two versions of the country map, one without colored wastelands, and another with them colored (please take into account that some work still needs to be done regarding the coloring of the corridors). Only four new countries are to be shown this week (as Fezzan already appeared some weeks ago). First is first, there are dynamic keys for them similar to the Mamluks, so their full name in the game are ‘Marinid Sultanate of Morocco’, ‘Zayyanid Sultanate of Tlemcen, and ‘Hafsid Sultanate of Tunis’ (Tripoli starts with a random ruler, as we weren’t able to find which was the reigning dynasty in 1337). The main power in this period is the Marinid dynasty, ruling from Fās, after grabbing the power from the Almohads almost a century ago. They start at war with the Zayyanids of Tlemcen, and its capital is close to falling to the mighty Sultan Abu al-Hasan ‘Ali. They also have a foothold in Iberia, around Algeciras and Ronda, which may lead to future campaigns about the control of the Strait of Gibraltar.

View attachment 1170528
And this is the starting diplomatic situation between Morocco and Tlemcen, with the capital of the latter almost surrounded by the former...

Dynasties:
View attachment 1170971
Here we have the three main dynasties of the Maghreb in 1337, the Marinids, the Zayyanids, and the Hafsids. Apart from those, the dynasties of Tripoli and Fezzan are randomly generated, as we don’t know who was ruling in those places at that specific time.

Locations:
View attachment 1170530
Here are the maps of the locations. In the first, you may see the corridors (the non-named locations) connecting the Maghreb with the Saharan inner lands and oases. Regarding the location density, we might want to increase it in a few places (that Siṭṭāt location is too big compared to its neighbors, for instance).

Provinces:
View attachment 1170533
We’re open to suggestions for the provinces, as usual.

Areas:
View attachment 1170534
The areas of the Maghreb correspond to their historical division (al-Aqṣā, al-Awsat, al-Adna, and Tripoli). The northern section of the Sahara is split in two areas, the Western Sahara, and the Sahara Oases.

Terrain:
View attachment 1170973
View attachment 1170974
View attachment 1170976
Better late than never!

Cultures:
View attachment 1170535
The cultural division of the region is very, very interesting, we think. The first thing that I want to stress is that we’ve divided the most Arabized zones from the more traditionally Berber ones. The more Arabized cultures are the Moroccan, Algerian, Tunisian, Lybian, and the Hassaniya tribe, in the western Sahara. Meanwhile, the Berber-speaking peoples are divided into Masmuda, and Sanhaja in al-Maġrib al-Aqṣā; the Zenati in al-Maġrib al-Awsat; the Kabylian, Chaoui, and Mozabite in al-Maġrib al-Adna; and the Eastern Berber (a name that we will probably change, given the feedback already received in the Egyptian Tinto Maps) in Tripoli. The Berber-speaking Tuareg and the Saharan-speaking Toubou inhabit the central Saharan Oases.

Religions:
View attachment 1170543
Most of the region’s population practices Sunni Islam, with a very important zone where Ibadism is the majority, more or less corresponding with Mozabite and Eastern Berbers. Although it’s not shown on the map, there are two religious minorities present, the Mustaʿravi Jews, in a bunch of urban centers across the region, and some native Christians spread through al-Maġrib al-Adna.

Raw Materials:
View attachment 1170537
The Maghreb is very rich in different materials, especially Morocco (which was used a long time ago as a ‘RGO-gameplay’ testing ground by our QAs). The Saharan corridor is way less productive, but it’s somehow important for the next map…

Markets:
View attachment 1170538
The market centers of the region are placed in Fās and Al-Jazā'ir, which makes for good market access and distribution for the start of the game, in general terms. You might notice that trading happens across the corridors, which makes for a real connection between the markets to the north and south of the Sahara in 1337. This means that we can effectively simulate the trading of Saharan and sub-Saharan goods (salt, alum, gold, ivory) to the north until maybe some European countries decide to explore down the African coast and make direct trading in the Gulf of Guinea, avoiding the Maghrebi intermediaries.

Population:
View attachment 1170539
The population of the region is around 5,5M, with an interesting distribution: al-Maġrib al-Aqṣā and al-Maġrib al-Adna have more or less a similar population, with al-Maġrib al-Awsat having half of them, and Tripoli and Saharan Oases being way less populated.

And that’s all for this week! The next one we will travel across the Sahara, and take a look at the region of Western Africa. See you!
Hello, and welcome one more week to another Tinto Maps, where we assemble several maps for the shake of it (well, also to gather feedback, I guess). After the nightmarish maps of last week, we’re showing a much less fragmented region this week, the Maghreb. Let’s take a look at it, then.

Countries:
View attachment 1170526
View attachment 1170527
This week I’m showing two versions of the country map, one without colored wastelands, and another with them colored (please take into account that some work still needs to be done regarding the coloring of the corridors). Only four new countries are to be shown this week (as Fezzan already appeared some weeks ago). First is first, there are dynamic keys for them similar to the Mamluks, so their full name in the game are ‘Marinid Sultanate of Morocco’, ‘Zayyanid Sultanate of Tlemcen, and ‘Hafsid Sultanate of Tunis’ (Tripoli starts with a random ruler, as we weren’t able to find which was the reigning dynasty in 1337). The main power in this period is the Marinid dynasty, ruling from Fās, after grabbing the power from the Almohads almost a century ago. They start at war with the Zayyanids of Tlemcen, and its capital is close to falling to the mighty Sultan Abu al-Hasan ‘Ali. They also have a foothold in Iberia, around Algeciras and Ronda, which may lead to future campaigns about the control of the Strait of Gibraltar.

View attachment 1170528
And this is the starting diplomatic situation between Morocco and Tlemcen, with the capital of the latter almost surrounded by the former...

Dynasties:
View attachment 1170971
Here we have the three main dynasties of the Maghreb in 1337, the Marinids, the Zayyanids, and the Hafsids. Apart from those, the dynasties of Tripoli and Fezzan are randomly generated, as we don’t know who was ruling in those places at that specific time.

Locations:
View attachment 1170530
Here are the maps of the locations. In the first, you may see the corridors (the non-named locations) connecting the Maghreb with the Saharan inner lands and oases. Regarding the location density, we might want to increase it in a few places (that Siṭṭāt location is too big compared to its neighbors, for instance).

Provinces:
View attachment 1170533
We’re open to suggestions for the provinces, as usual.

Areas:
View attachment 1170534
The areas of the Maghreb correspond to their historical division (al-Aqṣā, al-Awsat, al-Adna, and Tripoli). The northern section of the Sahara is split in two areas, the Western Sahara, and the Sahara Oases.

Terrain:
View attachment 1170973
View attachment 1170974
View attachment 1170976
Better late than never!

Cultures:
View attachment 1170535
The cultural division of the region is very, very interesting, we think. The first thing that I want to stress is that we’ve divided the most Arabized zones from the more traditionally Berber ones. The more Arabized cultures are the Moroccan, Algerian, Tunisian, Lybian, and the Hassaniya tribe, in the western Sahara. Meanwhile, the Berber-speaking peoples are divided into Masmuda, and Sanhaja in al-Maġrib al-Aqṣā; the Zenati in al-Maġrib al-Awsat; the Kabylian, Chaoui, and Mozabite in al-Maġrib al-Adna; and the Eastern Berber (a name that we will probably change, given the feedback already received in the Egyptian Tinto Maps) in Tripoli. The Berber-speaking Tuareg and the Saharan-speaking Toubou inhabit the central Saharan Oases.

Religions:
View attachment 1170543
Most of the region’s population practices Sunni Islam, with a very important zone where Ibadism is the majority, more or less corresponding with Mozabite and Eastern Berbers. Although it’s not shown on the map, there are two religious minorities present, the Mustaʿravi Jews, in a bunch of urban centers across the region, and some native Christians spread through al-Maġrib al-Adna.

Raw Materials:
View attachment 1170537
The Maghreb is very rich in different materials, especially Morocco (which was used a long time ago as a ‘RGO-gameplay’ testing ground by our QAs). The Saharan corridor is way less productive, but it’s somehow important for the next map…

Markets:
View attachment 1170538
The market centers of the region are placed in Fās and Al-Jazā'ir, which makes for good market access and distribution for the start of the game, in general terms. You might notice that trading happens across the corridors, which makes for a real connection between the markets to the north and south of the Sahara in 1337. This means that we can effectively simulate the trading of Saharan and sub-Saharan goods (salt, alum, gold, ivory) to the north until maybe some European countries decide to explore down the African coast and make direct trading in the Gulf of Guinea, avoiding the Maghrebi intermediaries.

Population:
View attachment 1170539
The population of the region is around 5,5M, with an interesting distribution: al-Maġrib al-Aqṣā and al-Maġrib al-Adna have more or less a similar population, with al-Maġrib al-Awsat having half of them, and Tripoli and Saharan Oases being way less populated.

And that’s all for this week! The next one we will travel across the Sahara, and take a look at the region of Western Africa. See you!
I was wondering how would minorities be presented in Maghreb Al Awsat , because there isn't a culture with dominant majority over the region , and even today you would find a large group of Mzabs , kabyles and arabs in a city such as Tahert which was historically the capital of the Mzabi rustumids , the book Al Muqadima by ibn khaldun might show how the cultural construction of this region is since he started writing it in Tahert . And thank you for the accurate representation of that area since it doesn't get much love like europe or the middle east .
 
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Hey! First, thanks for these maps. It's interesting to see them. I don't want to sound rude in this post, I would just like to be enlightened.

It's the first time I comment on a Tinto Talk and have a few remarks:

1- While I undertsand the division of Maghrib-Al-Aqsa, Maghrib-Al-Awsat and Maghrib Al-Adna; shouldn't Tripoli be considered part of Maghrib-Al-Adna? And Western Sahara part of Maghrib-Al-Aqsa?

2- The Amazigh/Berber tribes in the Atlantic coast of Morocco should be Masmuda, not Sanhaja. Sub-tribes of Masmuda

3- From what I understood, cultures represent the people so I don't really undertsand how come Western Saharan people would be majority of Hassaniya culture at this point, it wouldn't be true until the 16 or 17 century. When Hassaniya became dominant

4- If somehow Hassaniya are considered majority culture in Western Sahara and not just the rulers being of Hassaniya culture, I don't see why the Atlantic Coast of Morocco aren't majority "Moroccan", since they were quite arabs/arabized by this point (the arabs ruled as "vassals" these territories from the mid 12 century, way before there were Hassaniya in Western Sahara). History of arab tribes in Morocco

5- How come there are "Moroccan, Algerian, Tunisian" cultures in the 1337? Isn't it a bit anachronistic? Even today, I'm not really sure if we can properly speak of Moroccan, or Algerian culture. Look ar the diversity of languages/cultures in this image
1722615109000.png
 
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