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Tinto Maps #18 - 13th of September 2024 - Persia & Caucasus

Hello everyone, and welcome to one more Tinto Maps! Today we will be taking a look at Persia and the Caucasus! These are regions that encompass several modern-day countries and regions (Iraq, Iran, Balochistan, Afghanistan, Transoxiana, etc.), but for the sake of simplicity, we decided to name this DD this. Let’s start, without further ado!

Countries:
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Colored Wastelands.png

The region is quite interesting in 1337, as there are plenty of countries to play with. The Ilkhanate is still alive, but in name only, the real power being hosted by the Jalayirids, who are overlords of some of their neighbors (the Chobanids, and the Eretnids). Other countries, such as Gurgan, the Kartids, and Muzaffarids are also struggling to get the hegemony over the region. Meanwhile, the strongest power in the Caucasus is the Kingdom of Georgia, although the region is also quite fragmented among different polities.

Ilkhanate.png

And speaking of the Ilkhanate, you may have wondered why isn’t it a unified tag… Well, it’s because we consider that it is clearly in decadence, having lost any grasp of authority over the provinces, so the best way of portraying it is through an International Organization. What we can see in this mapmode is that there are two pretenders to get the power, the Jalayarids and Gurgan, with the other countries still being formally part of it. I won’t talk more today about how it works and its features, but I’ll just say that there are two clear fates for the Ilkhanate: being dissolved, as historically happened, or being restored in full power as a unified country.

Dynasties:
Dynasties.png

Not much to say today about the dynasties, as they’re akin to the country names, in most cases. Well, you might wonder which one is the yellow one, ruling over Gurgan… That country is ruled by the Borgijin, heirs of Genghis Khan. Now you get the full picture of their rule over the Ilkhanate being challenged by the Jalayirids, I think…

Locations:
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Provinces:
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Areas:
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Terrain:
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We’re back to a region with lots of different climates, topography, and vegetation. This will make it very unique, gameplay and looking-wise.

Harbors:
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You might notice that there are ports in the Caspian Sea… Because, well, it’s considered a sea in our game, so there can be ships and navies over it.

Cultures:
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There's quite a lot of cultural division throughout the region... The Caucasus is, well, the Caucasus, divided among lots of different people. Then we have the Iraqi and Kurdish in Iraq, Persian and a number of other cultures in Iran, Baloch in Balochistan, Afghan in Afghanistan, and Khorasani, Turkmen, Khorezm, Hazara, and Tajiks, among others, in Khorasan and Transoxiana.

Religions:
Religion.png

Another interesting religious situation. Orthodox is the main religion in Georgia, and Miaphysitism in Armenia, with other confessions spread here and there throughout the Caucasus (Khabzeism, and three 'Pagan' confessions, Karachay-Balkar, Vainakh, and Lezgin). Then Iraq is divided among Sunni, to the north, and Shiism, to the south. And Iran is in an interesting situation, having a Sunni majority, but with some important Shiite pockets here and there. And Zoroastrianism, of course. It was not trivial to properly portray them, as we don't have good data for the 14th century. So what we did was some calculations, between sources that tell that there was still a majority as late as the 11th century, and the religion becoming severely reduced by the 16th century. Therefore, we decided to go with 20% of the population as a general rule of thumb; however, we're quite open to feedback over this matter.

Raw Materials:
Raw Materials.png

This region is full of rich resources, in stark contrast to the one we showed last week, Arabia. There are a couple of bugs on this mapmode that you might spot, I think.

Markets:
Markets.png

This region has several markets: Tabriz, Baghdad, Esfahan, Hormuz, Nishapur, and Zaranj., This will make for regionally fragmented-but-integrated economies (that is, good market access everyhwere, but with regionally diverging economies).

Population:
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The total population of the region is around 9M, taking into account all the different areas that we’re showing today. That is divided into about 4.5M in Iran, 2M in Iraq, 1.5M in the Caucasus, and around 1.5M in Transoxiana.

And that’s all for today! Next Friday we will be taking a look at India! Yes, in its entirety; we think that it is the best way to do it, although we’ll talk more about it next week. Another change, only for next week: the DD will be published at 10:00 instead of the regular 15:00, as I won’t be available in the afternoon to reply. Letting you know so there’s a proper wow-pole-run, yes. See you!
 

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Edited my previous post in Anatolia Feedback, but I thought that considering the Eretnids are part of the Ilkhanate, I'll post the map here as well:

Mongol tribes and Emirs who roamed or ruled in the region and held great power and influence during the 14th century. The Sutayid splinter tribe of the Barambays, and the minor tribe of the Alagöz would only enter Eretnid service around the 1340s. Hasan Kucek is also somewhere in Anatolia at a place called Karahisar, but there are many places with that name.
  • The Samagar, named after Samagar noyan. They are said to have been very powerful, with great effect on the later Eretnid power struggles
  • The Jaygazan
  • The Jawunqar
  • There are also mentions of the Babuq clan ruling over Nigde, who took part in the power struggles between the Karamanids and Eretnids
  • Another area mentioned to have been ruled by a Mongol emir is of Beysehir and Ilgin
NOTE: Only the Babuq clan and unnamed Mongol Emir at Beysehir and Ilgin were "settled". The Samagar, Jaygazan and Jawunqar were very much roaming nomads.

Sources:
  1. "Mongol Aristocrats and Beyliks in Anatolia. A study of Astarabadi's Bazm va Razm" (2011)
  2. "Hülâgû Han’dan Emîr Timur’a Anadolu Tatarları" (2022)


1726706601961.png

Anatolia Locations.png



 
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Edited my previous post in Anatolia Feedback, but I thought that considering the Eretnids are part of the Ilkhanate, I'll post the map here as well:

Mongol tribes and Emirs who held great power and influence in the region during the 14th century. The Sutayid splinter tribe of the Barambays, and the minor tribe of the Alagöz would only enter Eretnid service around the 1340s. Hasan Kucek is also somewhere in Anatolia at a place called Karahisar, but there are many places with that name.
  • The Samagar, named after Samagar noyan. They are said to have been very powerful, with great effect on the later Eretnid power struggles
  • The Jaygazan
  • The Jawunqar
  • There are also mentions of the Babuq clan ruling over Nigde, who took part in the power struggles between the Karamanids and Eretnids
  • Another area mentioned to have been ruled by a Mongol emir is of Beysehir and Ilgin
Sources:
  1. "Mongol Aristocrats and Beyliks in Anatolia. A study of Astarabadi's Bazm va Razm" (2011)
  2. "Hülâgû Han’dan Emîr Timur’a Anadolu Tatarları" (2022)


View attachment 1189447
View attachment 1189449


Probably better to re-post rather than just edit, so that they're aware that you made changes.
 
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What I would like to see is a “rump state” mechanic; after a major power, say France, loses a certain amount of territory and important cultural and administrative locations I.E. Paris, or has too low control over too large an area, a disaster could trigger. If the player/AI is able to solve the disaster they should get buffs that help with reclamation/consolidation of territory; in the result of failure the country should lose cores, vassals, and perhaps release new tags. Most importantly, the “falling” tag should change from “the kingdom of France” to say “the duchy of Valois” and lose the benefits of being France.

I think this would help with the “believable world” immersion. At the EU4 start date the country that comes to mind is Mongolia; after the collapse of the yuan dynasty the mongols founded the “northern yuan” dynasty called “Mongolia” in eu4. There is no current mechanic in EU4 that represents this and I think PC would stand to benefit from something like this if it doesn’t include it already.
I do like the general idea of this, but how would becoming a rump state demand that France stops being France? Many states reduced to their rumps held on to the same essential features.
 
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Hopefully this map can be of some help, as some of the wastelands seems to have cities, at the very least during the 17th century
1726719918567.png

Source: Willem Janszoon Blaeu,theatrum Orbis Terrarum sive Atlas Novus(whenever i try to link the website i accesed from-the forum says i can post it due to inapproite or spammy content)
 
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Edited my previous post in Anatolia Feedback, but I thought that considering the Eretnids are part of the Ilkhanate, I'll post the map here as well:

Mongol tribes and Emirs who roamed or ruled in the region and held great power and influence during the 14th century. The Sutayid splinter tribe of the Barambays, and the minor tribe of the Alagöz would only enter Eretnid service around the 1340s. Hasan Kucek is also somewhere in Anatolia at a place called Karahisar, but there are many places with that name.
  • The Samagar, named after Samagar noyan. They are said to have been very powerful, with great effect on the later Eretnid power struggles
  • The Jaygazan
  • The Jawunqar
  • There are also mentions of the Babuq clan ruling over Nigde, who took part in the power struggles between the Karamanids and Eretnids
  • Another area mentioned to have been ruled by a Mongol emir is of Beysehir and Ilgin
NOTE: Only the Babuq clan and unnamed Mongol Emir at Beysehir and Ilgin were "settled". The Samagar, Jaygazan and Jawunqar were very much roaming nomads.

Sources:
  1. "Mongol Aristocrats and Beyliks in Anatolia. A study of Astarabadi's Bazm va Razm" (2011)
  2. "Hülâgû Han’dan Emîr Timur’a Anadolu Tatarları" (2022)


View attachment 1189447
View attachment 1189449


What would happen to the Karamanids in his situation?
 
@SuperLexxe i'd like to present some entries for the Caucasus
Specifically 3-4 political entities
The first is the Durzduketian polity of

Simsir/Simsim​

this one is not as historically backed as the earliest times i can find is that it was founded in 1360, however there are also sources that imply that it existed prior to that with its leader Gayur-khan/Kyr Bek having succeeded his father. It was said to be situated in Ichkeria which is the eastern highlands of the present day Chechnya region, this would probably be a OPM or 2 3 locations at max imo. It would also most likely be a tributary/vassal of the Golden Horde
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simsim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gayur-khan

Second would be the

Kaitag Utsmiate​

This was apparently a multi ethnic polity which lasted from the 6th century all the way to 1820, they were mostly traced and or connected top the modern day Kaitags which are a subgroup of the Dargins so they would probably be culturally Dargin, They were based northwest of Derbent in the hills specifically in Dakhadayevsky District and Kaytagsky District so this would probably approximate to Kubachi and possibly Khuchni locations (although the best option would be Kubachi and a new location made out of the lower half of Kubachi and the northern half of Khuchni imo) The leader is either Amir-Chupan I or his father Sultan Alibek, although it is most likely his father in my opinion.

Additional notes regarding the Kaitag Utsimiate it seems that just prior to the start date 10 years or so the Utsimiate was at the center of what seems to be a family based proxy war between Shirvan and what is most likely the Kumyk entity of Tarki, specifically between the two brothers from two different mothers one from Tarki and one from Shirvan, Sultan Alibek from the Tarki side of the family and Ilch Ahmed from the shirvan side of the family, they mention that Ilch ahmed after losing got what was probably a tiny piece of land if the devs wanted to go to extreme granularity they could also represent this as a OPM but im not sure if its relevant enough lol it would be in modern day northwest azerbaijan Qabala location


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaitag_Utsmiate The Wikipedia page for them is quite sparse in English but the Russian language version seems alot more juicier
Thirdly would be the

Tsakhur Khanate & Rutul polity​

The Tsakhurs and Rutul seem to be a subgroup of Lezgians. Again using russian language wikipedia the sources are a little inconsistent and hard to read/interpret but it does seem like the Tsakhur Khanate was a real political entity most likely would be a OPM. Some bit say that it was the capital of the Lezgian state whereas others treat it as a separate polity along with Rutul with which it apparently got invaded by along with the Qara Qolonyu at some point (although this is beyond the timeframe for the start date ). This also means that there were generally 2 polities being the Tsakhur Khanate in the west based of Tsakhur and the Rutul polity in the east based in Rutul.


In conclusion they would most likely be a one province minor with Rutul divided into Tsakhur and Rutul held by their respective OPM Tsahkur Khanate and Rutul

Here is the wikipedia link for both Tsakhur and Rutul (as usual the english is more sparse than the Russian one) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutul_Federation



In addition ive seen some maps that seem to portray the caucasus geopolitical formations in 1380 which although a bit after the start date maY be a good approximation for feedback of the map
1726730936621.png
 
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Maybe, we have to port some more correct data for that.
It would be cool for that region to have a system where you have to actively build, maintain and repair irrigation canals to make the land into more of a farmlands etc. When you cant afford it or when the canals are destroyed by foregin invasion in turn into more of a desert. In the past this region had such rich farmlands thanks to centuries of canal building and when they werent meintained for one reason or another it was loosing a lot of the wealth.
 
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A few more possible entries into @SuperLexxe 's map

Sirichgaran/Zirikhgeran/Zarakhgaran​

This state is "a Dargin-Kubachi medieval state formation that existed in mountainous Dagestan from the 6th century to the 15th century, " So apparently it is a type subgroup of Dargin. Apparently according to the Russian wikipedia page for it they had only recently accepted islam 30 years earlier in 1305 and apparently before that it was a heavily zoroastrian place? which is interesting to say the least, so it could probably be 40% islam 50% Zoroastrian and 10% orthodox Christian? It should also be said that the polity was frequntly in conflict with the neighbouring and aforementioned Kaitag Utsmiate which it was conquered a couple times by and also proceedingly broke free several; times until it was conquered once and for all sometime in the 1500's

his is also a very small state probably a OPM more directly west of Derbent so somewhat southwest of Kaitag? It would probably be a OPM in Tpig or another new location made out of the north half of Tpig and the southwestern half of Kubachi which apparently the titular ethnic group is named after.

Secondly we have the

Tabasaran Principality​

The Tabasarans were another sub group of Lezgians and this polity was apparently situated south of Kaitag and Zirikhgeran, this would probably be the Kuchni location (particularly if its northern half was subdivided into a new location and given to Kaitag). Apparently they were also vassals to and allied to the Kaitag of which they eventually gained their independence.
 
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Btw, anyone have a clue why Tabaristan would have such a low pop on the centre of the southern Caspian coast compared to Gilan and Mazandaran? Is it truly that uninhabitable?

Iskandar II, the ruler of the Baduspanids of Tabaristan had occupied a swath of land in Iraq-e-Ajam soon after the deaths of Abu Sa'id and Arpa Ke'un, likely in concert with the Khorasani westward campaign (Togha Temür of the Qasarids was crowned in Mazandaran in the winter of 1336/7, so it wouldn't be surprising for the neighbouring ruler of Tabaristan to have taken part, and especially as the event would have been when the plans for the campaign were laid out).

The population in those occupied lands south of the Alborz mountains would outnumber that of core Tabaristan by 7:1.


 
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Kunya Urgench should be named just Urgench. The Kunya part just means "old" and new Urgench wasn't founded until the 19th century. Every source I've seen in the time frame of the game just calls the original one "Urgench," even in the 1700s long after its decline.

Edit: Also the Persian dynamic name should be Gurgānj/Gurganj (depending on your transliteration standards).
 
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Though Representing the Tajiks and the Hazaras in Afghanistan is definitely a step up from EU4's uniform "Afghan" culture, Calling the Pashtuns "Afghan" is a little strange. Technically speaking, the term Afghan refers to people who live in Afghanistan, which includes several different ethnic groups including Pashtuns. They should really just be called Pashtun or maybe Pashto rather than Afghan.

Also, perhaps some of the other minority groups in Afghanistan could be represented as well.

View attachment 1187851
I agree but looking at the current population distribution of Afghanistan is very deceiving as it does not tell you the full story of forced migration, assimilation and massacres which took place during the beginning of the Afghan Pashtun nation state. Which is why I recommend books from historical figures such as Babur who goes into detail of his visits to the many parts of what is now known as modern day "Afghanistan".

Also this map you're showing clusters Aimagh/Aymaq/Aymagh(Western provinces to the west of the Yellow ie Hazara population) as Tajiks which is not accurate. They are closer to Hazaras(Turko-Mongolic Shia - Persian Speaking) and Uzbeks(Turkic Sunni). Aimagh is a Turko-Mongol name.
 
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