Tinto Maps #18 - 13th of September 2024 - Persia & Caucasus

[arkh4ngelsk]

We interrupt your regularly scheduled Georgian programming to bring you some news from Central Asia

I started doing research on the empty coast of the eastern Caspian and then things quickly snowballed. So here are some proposals covering Central Asia. Two of them are similar to or inspired by @arkh4ngelsk's post, although the end result is fairly different. I'm trying out using thumbnails for most of the pictures here, since there's so many of them and the big ones break up the text so much. Click to embiggen.

The Eastern Caspian Coast

There are three/four drawings here of the same suggestion, based on your choice for the Caspian shoreline. The current shoreline is on the left and the most extreme change is on the right. I prefer one of the middle two. See below for details.

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Two new locations (and a new wasteland location): Uly Balkan and Ogurja. Both share the following suggested attributes:

Area	Climate	Vegetation	Topography	Culture	Religion
Khwarazm	Cold Arid	Desert	Flatland	Turkmen	Sunni

For Raw Materials I recommend giving Ogurja wool and Uly Balkan fish. These are the resources associated with the region in the sources, since they were taxed in sheep and were mentioned as fishermen. Both as sheep could also work. If there is any mechanism for oil in the late game then Ogurja should be able to participate in it, as noted in the quotes below.

For province and area I'm not 100% sure, but I lean more towards Khwarazm as the area and Uzboy as the province, since there is probably more in common historically and culturally with the inhabitants of the existing locations on the Uzboy River and the Khwarazm area generally than with the more Persian regions to the south.

If you must only add one of these then choose Ogurja – in my opinion it’s more clearly indicated in the sources, as it has both the island(s) and the Uzboy riverbed which regularly appear in the references, and it’s more geographically suitable for habitation. Also it was a pirate base in the 1700s and that’s fun. How often do you hear about Turkmen pirates?

I am not totally happy with the “Uly Balkan” name, which is derived from the Uly Balkan (Great Balkan) mountain range – however the highest mountain in that range is actually the wasteland to the south of this location and I’m not sure how far into this location the rest of the range passes, but also don’t have any better ideas. The Russian name mentioned below is from the very tail end of the period and the Persian name is mentioned in a single source and it isn’t totally clear its the same place. I like them as dynamic names for potential conquests but not so much as the name at the start of the game. Suggestions would be great.

The wasteland is Mt Arlan and should have Mountain topography and otherwise the same attributes. I know it’s meaningless in gameplay terms but there seem to be other wastelands that are also there mostly for show so it seemed ok to add.

Dynamic names:

Turkic	Persian	Russian
Uly Balkan	Dehestān-e Sor, if you're willing to perhaps reach a little	Krasnovodsk
Ogurja	Chaharken or Cheleken	Ogurcha

It’s clear that there was habitation in this area, but the exact nature, names, locations, and borders are vague and likely shifting. So this proposal is built on a lot of partial and unclear references and some assumptions and reaches on my part.

As for the borders, Ogurja follows the bed of the Uzboy river down to the sea, passing between Mt Arlan and the matching peak on the south side of the river valley, and fanning out as it approaches the sea. The island(s) are included with this location. Uly Balkan was harder to find natural borders for, and is basically covers what is now called the Turkmenbashy peninsula, cutting off at Mt Arlan in the south and the Ust-Yurt Plateau in the northeast.

Sources for inhabitation, resources, and naming


Abulghazi, 235-6, annotations from Barthold 1902 and Barthold 1962, 135. The mentions of the river Amu here refer to the course of the Uzboy, which at times in this period had water in it and was apparently traversable by boat, as the Amu Darya was flowing largely towards the Caspian rather than the Aral. More on that if I do my Aral Sea post in the Steppe thread The same passage from Abulghazi is also covered, in paraphrase rather than full translation but with more modern language, in those Barthold sources.

Barthold 1962, 134.

Barthold 1962, 137

Bosworth, C. E. “DEHESTĀN,” Encyclopædia Iranica.

Rawlinson 1879, 163. Barthold is somewhat confused by these reports but says that “50 farsakhs from the mouth of the Gurgen could bring us to the Balkhan Bay” Barthold 1902. The situation is ultimately very unclear on whether the Muslim geographers were saying that there is a Dehistan-e-Sor in the north in addition to the main Dehistan further south or if some of them were just very confused abou the location of Dehistan.

This next quote is a long one, get ready

Hanway 1753, 133-6

View attachment 1194018
The region on Elton & Woodroofe 1753. North is to the right. This map was made for and appears in the Hanway book alongside the text quoted above. Elton and Woodroofe sailed on and charted the Caspian.


de Planhol, Xavier. “CASPIAN SEA i. GEOGRAPHY,” Encyclopædia Iranica.

Some 18th century European maps follow – of course many of these maps are derived from the sources I just quoted, or are copying each other, or are plain inaccurate, but it’s a little extra visualization.

View attachment 1194026	View attachment 1194027	View attachment 1194028	View attachment 1194029
d’Anville 1737	de Vaugondy 1753	d’Anville 1754	Santini & Remondini 1779

A discussion on the Caspian Shoreline
You might be wondering why there are four versions of the Caspian locations I proposed, and why the Elton and Woodroofe map looks nothing like the modern region. That’s because the Caspian has had a quite unstable water level. At the time of the start of the game, and also in the mid 1700s when Hanway was writing, the water level was quite high (Leroy et al 2022) and would have covered some of the low points in what is now the Cheleken peninsula. Cheleken peninsula in fact seems to have not been a peninsula until the 20th century, rather being an island (and, judging by some of the things I saw while searching for sources here, might be on its way back towards an island).

View attachment 1194030
Chart from Leroy et al 2022, showing Caspian water level estimates over time.

Hanway, Elton, and Woodroofe weren’t inventing things on their map – we can see similar things, though less extreme, on a map in Rawlinson 1879.
View attachment 1194031
And we can even see the previous islands on a modern elevation map; the following are the same elevation map colored at three scales; one highly compressed to amplify small changes at low elevations (left), one at a normal scale (right), and one in between (center). All have been rotated so that north is to the right, as on the Elton and Woodroofe map, and you can see the higher elevations that map out the same pattern of islands as Elton and Woodroofe drew.

View attachment 1194018

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So as for the four proposals at the top: the leftmost is just the current shoreline from the Tinto Map, which is the modern shoreline. Then we have a small change, patterned after the Rawlinson map, with Cheleken (Naphtonia, in Hanway) as an island but Dargan only a peninsula. Then one with both Cheleken and Dargan as islands but the coastline south of Dargan hewing closer to Rawlinson and the modern day. The rightmost is the most extreme change, modeled entirely on Hanway. My preference is for one of the middle two, as they strike a balance for a shoreline that saw a lot of variance over the course of the game.

Merv
View attachment 1194035

One new location: Khurmuzfarra. Suggested attributes as follows

Province	Area	Climate	Vegetation	Topography	Culture	Religion	Raw material
Merv	Eastern Horasan	Cold Arid	Sparse	Flatland	Tajik	Sunni	Unsure, perhaps wheat as it’s on an oasis which is farmed

This is modified from arch4ngelsk’s suggestion. I have deleted Geok-Gumbuz, as the location of its namesake is highly unclear and almost the entirety of the drawn area in their suggestion is desert and occupied only by caravansarais. Also, seemingly the main role of Geok-Gumbuz in their proposal is to fill the narrow arm connecting Merv and Amol, but that area consisted of a road through the desert connected by caravansarais and probably shouldn’t be represented by its own location or by wide borders.

I have retained the Khurmuzfarra location, as the namesake can be placed precisely well within the shape and it is labeled as “major city” in one source (Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Turkmenistan 2023, 633). I have significantly redrawn the shape compared to arch4ngelsk’s suggestion: the northern border has been moved southward to align better with the border between the oasis and the desert, and the eastern arm which connects to Amol has been given to this location. The borders of that eastern arm have also been pushed to the north so that they properly enclose the medieval road from Merv to Amol, which can be well placed based on the ruins of caravanserais along that road (Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Turkmenistan 2023). The existing arm mostly follows the current paved road, which is further south than the medieval road (William & Wordsworth 2008).

The borders of Merv would remain as they are, except for where the new Khurmuzfarra location supersedes them.

However, considering the extent to which Merv was the center of gravity of the area, I don't think it's egregious if you stick to one location. It might mainly be a decision of how big you want the location(s) in this oasis to be. If you decide to leave this region as one location only, I would still suggest pushing the borders of the eastern arm to the north as described above, to properly cover the location of the medieval road.

Khwarazm-Jand Corridor
View attachment 1194036

A corridor should exist connecting Jand to the core of Khwarazm oasis. I consider this probably the most important change in this comment, considering the historical importance of the connection and the massive impact it will have on gameplay connections in the region. This road is regularly mentioned in the sources as a route for armies, and there were even periods where Jand was subject to Khwarazm.

As the sources I have seen do not really discuss the precise route of the road, or where it terminates in Khwarazm, I have drawn the eastern part starting at Jand as curving along the Janadarya River (since that seems reasonable), and once that ends I simply drew the shortest route across the desert. There is also mention in the sources of a road between Jankent/Yanikant (which is along the Syr Darya further north than this map covers, and seemingly ceased to exist prior to the start of the game) and Khwarazm, but since Jand and Jankent were close to each other and likely part of the same network I’m treating them as one here in terms of quoting sources.

Note many of these quotes are about times shortly before the Mongol Invasion, and therefore outside the time frame of the game, but that’s because that is a period where there are comparatively plenty of written records and the locations in question were regional power centers. I see no indication that the corridor would have become impassible by the time of the game.


Barthold 1968, 178

Barthold 1968, 298 – but note further down a successful traversal in summer.

Barthold 1968, 314

Barthold 1968, 328-9

Barthold 1968, 342-3

Barthold 1968, 356

Barthold 1968, 433

Golev 2021, 47

Harke & Azhantseva 2021, 55
View attachment 1194039
Map of tenth century towns and travel routes, from Harke & Azhantseva 2021, 57

Nurota-Zemukh Corridor
View attachment 1194040

This is a much more tenuous suggestion that can easily be rejected, but it’s kind of fun so I thought I’d include it. It’s based on a road from a place near Otrar to Nurata, whose brief moment in the spotlight was a use by the Mongols, and then being traveled by a writer, both prior to the game’s time frame. It then may have been in continued use after, but it’s not really clear.


Barthold 1968, 408

Samangan-Kahmard Border Connection
View attachment 1194041

These two provinces should have their borders connect. A road between Balkh and Bamyan used in the era passed through here. The orange box is drawn at roughly the point where the actual road lies, but of course you could draw the connection over a larger border area as well. I have left the town of Madar marked on the map as it’s mentioned in the quotes below and is the primary evidence for drawing this connection.

Barthold 1968, 68

Barthold 1984, 23-24

If you go to Madar, Afghanistan in Google Maps and go to satellite view you can follow the road heading north through the passes towards the Khulm River.

Renames
Kunya-Urgench → Urgench: I already posted this one. Kunya here means “old,” and “new” Urgench wasn’t founded until the 19th century. The city is called just plain “Urgench” (with various spellings) in all sources relating to the period of the game, even maps from the 18th century.

Kerki → Zamm: Zamm was the medieval name of this location. I am unable to find exactly when the name changed, but it is still called Zamm on maps from the 18th century and even one outlier from the 19th century, so I suspect it was Zamm for much of the game period. The complicating factor here is that one period source called it “Karkūh,” so it’s also possible that both names co-existed during this period. Nevertheless, the modern sources all call it Zamm in that era and most period sources seem to as well.

Barthold 1968, 80

Barthold 1984, 19

Bosworth, C. E. “ĀMOL (ĀMŪYA),” in Encyclopædia Iranica

Zamm on maps

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de l’Isle & Bauche 1745	de Vaugondy 1753	Reichard 1817

Sources
Texts
Abu al-Ghazi Bahadur. A General History of the Turks, Moguls and Tatars, Vulgarly Called Tartars: Together with a Description of the Countries They Inhabit. Vol. 1. London: J.and J. Knapton, 1729. http://archive.org/details/39020025955496-ageneralhistory. This is an 18th century translation into English from the French translation from the original Chagatai. I’m sure it’s not an ideal version but there doesn’t seem to have been any later translations and I don’t speak Chagatai.

Barthold, V. V. “Information about the Aral Sea and the Lower Reaches of the Amudarya from Ancient Times to the XVII Century.” 1902. Published in Russian as “Сведения об Аральском море и низовьях Амударьи с древнейших времен до XVII века”; I put the original through Google Translate for my quotes.

Barthold, V. V. Four Studies on the History of Central Asia. Translated by V. Minorsky and T. Minorsky. Vol. 3. Leiden: Brill, 1962. https://archive.org/details/dli.pahar.3200.

Barthold, V. V. Turkestan Down to the Mongol Invasion. Edited by Clifford Edmund Bosworth. 3rd ed. New Delhi, India: Munshiram Manoharlal Publishers, 1968. The 2nd edition, which I think is largely the same, is available at https://archive.org/details/Barthold1928Turkestan.

Barthold, V. V. An Historical Geography of Iran. Translated by Svat Soucek. Princeton University Press, 1984.

Golev, Konstantin. “The Cities along the Syr Darya in 11th–13th Cc.: Jand and Sïghnaq between the Cuman-Qïpchaqs and the Khwārazmshāhs Anushteginids.” Acta Orientalia Academiae Scientiarum Hungaricae 74, no. 1 (2021): 11–52.

Hanway, Jonas. An Historical Account of the British Trade Over the Caspian Sea: With a Journal of Travels from London through Russia into Persia; and Back Again through Russia, Germany and Holland. Vol. 1. London: Dodsley, etc., 1753. http://archive.org/details/b30414702_0001.

Härke, Heinrich, and Irina Arzhantseva. “Interfaces and Crossroads, Contexts and Communications: Early Medieval Towns in the Syr-Darya Delta (Kazakhstan).” Journal of Urban Archaeology 3 (2021): 51–63.

Leroy, S.A.G., P.J. Reimer, H.K. Lahijani, A. Naderi Beni, E. Sauer, F. Chalié, K. Arpe, et al. “Caspian Sea Levels over the Last 2200 Years, with New Data from the S-E Corner.” Geomorphology 403 (2022): 108136.

Encyclopædia Iranica https://iranicaonline.org
Williams, Tim, and Paul Wordsworth. “Merv to the Oxus: a desert survey of routes and surviving archaeology.” Archaeology International 12, no. 1 (2008).

Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Turkmenistan. “Silk Roads: Zarafshan-Karakum Corridor: Serial Transnational World Heritage Nomination.” UNESCO, 2023. https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1675/documents/.

Maps
all links go to high-res interactive viewers

Reichard, C.G. Persia. In: Gaspari, A.C. Allgemeiner Hand-Atlas der Ganzen Erde. 1817. https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~276116~90049324:XLIII--Persia

d’Anville, Jean-Baptiste Bourguignon. Carte La Plus Generale et qui comprend La Chine, La Tartarie Chinoise, et le Thibet, Dressee sur les Carte Particulierees des RR PP Jesuites. 1737. https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail/61775op/carte-la-plus-generale-et-qui-comprend-la-chine-la-tartarie-danville

de Vaugondy, Robert. Etats du Grand-Seigneur en Asie, Empire de Perse, Pays des Usbecs, Arabie et Egypte. 1753. https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/se...80~490059:Etats-du-Grand-Seigneur-en-Asie,-Em

de l’Isle, Guillaume, and Philippe Bauche. Carte de la Turquie de l’Arabie et de la Perse. 1745. https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/de...bie-et-de-la-perse-dressee-sur-delisle-buache

Elton, John, and Thomas Woodroofe. A Plain Chart of the Caspian-Sea, According to the Observations of Capt. John Elton, Author of Elton's Quadrant, and Thomas Woodroofe, Master of the British Ship Empress of Russia, Who navigated this Sea three years; Presented to Mr. Jonas Hanway of St. Petersburgh in 1745 by his most Obedient Servant Thomas Woodroofe. 1753. https://www.geographicus.com/P/AntiqueMap/caspian-gibson-1753

Santini, Paolo, and Giovanni Antonio Remondini. Carte de L’Empire de Perse. 1779. https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/de...te-de-lempire-de-perse-1779-santini-remondini



Now I just have to compile the dynamic naming list that I accidentally created by reading so many sources



We now return to your regularly scheduled Georgian programming

Much more comprehensive than my post, thank you, fully back these proposals

 

[GenericUsername1444]

We interrupt your regularly scheduled Georgian programming to bring you some news from Central Asia

I started doing research on the empty coast of the eastern Caspian and then things quickly snowballed. So here are some proposals covering Central Asia. Two of them are similar to or inspired by @arkh4ngelsk's post, although the end result is fairly different. I'm trying out using thumbnails for most of the pictures here, since there's so many of them and the big ones break up the text so much. Click to embiggen.

The Eastern Caspian Coast

There are three/four drawings here of the same suggestion, based on your choice for the Caspian shoreline. The current shoreline is on the left and the most extreme change is on the right. I prefer one of the middle two. See below for details.

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Two new locations (and a new wasteland location): Uly Balkan and Ogurja. Both share the following suggested attributes:

Area	Climate	Vegetation	Topography	Culture	Religion
Khwarazm	Cold Arid	Desert	Flatland	Turkmen	Sunni

For Raw Materials I recommend giving Ogurja wool and Uly Balkan fish. These are the resources associated with the region in the sources, since they were taxed in sheep and were mentioned as fishermen. Both as sheep could also work. If there is any mechanism for oil in the late game then Ogurja should be able to participate in it, as noted in the quotes below.

For province and area I'm not 100% sure, but I lean more towards Khwarazm as the area and Uzboy as the province, since there is probably more in common historically and culturally with the inhabitants of the existing locations on the Uzboy River and the Khwarazm area generally than with the more Persian regions to the south.

If you must only add one of these then choose Ogurja – in my opinion it’s more clearly indicated in the sources, as it has both the island(s) and the Uzboy riverbed which regularly appear in the references, and it’s more geographically suitable for habitation. Also it was a pirate base in the 1700s and that’s fun. How often do you hear about Turkmen pirates?

I am not totally happy with the “Uly Balkan” name, which is derived from the Uly Balkan (Great Balkan) mountain range – however the highest mountain in that range is actually the wasteland to the south of this location and I’m not sure how far into this location the rest of the range passes, but also don’t have any better ideas. The Russian name mentioned below is from the very tail end of the period and the Persian name is mentioned in a single source and it isn’t totally clear its the same place. I like them as dynamic names for potential conquests but not so much as the name at the start of the game. Suggestions would be great.

The wasteland is Mt Arlan and should have Mountain topography and otherwise the same attributes. I know it’s meaningless in gameplay terms but there seem to be other wastelands that are also there mostly for show so it seemed ok to add.

Dynamic names:

Turkic	Persian	Russian
Uly Balkan	Dehestān-e Sor, if you're willing to perhaps reach a little	Krasnovodsk
Ogurja	Chaharken or Cheleken	Ogurcha

It’s clear that there was habitation in this area, but the exact nature, names, locations, and borders are vague and likely shifting. So this proposal is built on a lot of partial and unclear references and some assumptions and reaches on my part.

As for the borders, Ogurja follows the bed of the Uzboy river down to the sea, passing between Mt Arlan and the matching peak on the south side of the river valley, and fanning out as it approaches the sea. The island(s) are included with this location. Uly Balkan was harder to find natural borders for, and is basically covers what is now called the Turkmenbashy peninsula, cutting off at Mt Arlan in the south and the Ust-Yurt Plateau in the northeast.

Sources for inhabitation, resources, and naming


Abulghazi, 235-6, annotations from Barthold 1902 and Barthold 1962, 135. The mentions of the river Amu here refer to the course of the Uzboy, which at times in this period had water in it and was apparently traversable by boat, as the Amu Darya was flowing largely towards the Caspian rather than the Aral. More on that if I do my Aral Sea post in the Steppe thread The same passage from Abulghazi is also covered, in paraphrase rather than full translation but with more modern language, in those Barthold sources.

Barthold 1962, 134.

Barthold 1962, 137

Bosworth, C. E. “DEHESTĀN,” Encyclopædia Iranica.

Rawlinson 1879, 163. Barthold is somewhat confused by these reports but says that “50 farsakhs from the mouth of the Gurgen could bring us to the Balkhan Bay” Barthold 1902. The situation is ultimately very unclear on whether the Muslim geographers were saying that there is a Dehistan-e-Sor in the north in addition to the main Dehistan further south or if some of them were just very confused abou the location of Dehistan.

This next quote is a long one, get ready

Hanway 1753, 133-6

View attachment 1194018
The region on Elton & Woodroofe 1753. North is to the right. This map was made for and appears in the Hanway book alongside the text quoted above. Elton and Woodroofe sailed on and charted the Caspian.


de Planhol, Xavier. “CASPIAN SEA i. GEOGRAPHY,” Encyclopædia Iranica.

Some 18th century European maps follow – of course many of these maps are derived from the sources I just quoted, or are copying each other, or are plain inaccurate, but it’s a little extra visualization.

View attachment 1194026	View attachment 1194027	View attachment 1194028	View attachment 1194029
d’Anville 1737	de Vaugondy 1753	d’Anville 1754	Santini & Remondini 1779

A discussion on the Caspian Shoreline
You might be wondering why there are four versions of the Caspian locations I proposed, and why the Elton and Woodroofe map looks nothing like the modern region. That’s because the Caspian has had a quite unstable water level. At the time of the start of the game, and also in the mid 1700s when Hanway was writing, the water level was quite high (Leroy et al 2022) and would have covered some of the low points in what is now the Cheleken peninsula. Cheleken peninsula in fact seems to have not been a peninsula until the 20th century, rather being an island (and, judging by some of the things I saw while searching for sources here, might be on its way back towards an island).

View attachment 1194030
Chart from Leroy et al 2022, showing Caspian water level estimates over time.

Hanway, Elton, and Woodroofe weren’t inventing things on their map – we can see similar things, though less extreme, on a map in Rawlinson 1879.
View attachment 1194031
And we can even see the previous islands on a modern elevation map; the following are the same elevation map colored at three scales; one highly compressed to amplify small changes at low elevations (left), one at a normal scale (right), and one in between (center). All have been rotated so that north is to the right, as on the Elton and Woodroofe map, and you can see the higher elevations that map out the same pattern of islands as Elton and Woodroofe drew.

View attachment 1194018

View attachment 1194032

View attachment 1194033

View attachment 1194034

So as for the four proposals at the top: the leftmost is just the current shoreline from the Tinto Map, which is the modern shoreline. Then we have a small change, patterned after the Rawlinson map, with Cheleken (Naphtonia, in Hanway) as an island but Dargan only a peninsula. Then one with both Cheleken and Dargan as islands but the coastline south of Dargan hewing closer to Rawlinson and the modern day. The rightmost is the most extreme change, modeled entirely on Hanway. My preference is for one of the middle two, as they strike a balance for a shoreline that saw a lot of variance over the course of the game.

Merv
View attachment 1194035

One new location: Khurmuzfarra. Suggested attributes as follows

Province	Area	Climate	Vegetation	Topography	Culture	Religion	Raw material
Merv	Eastern Horasan	Cold Arid	Sparse	Flatland	Tajik	Sunni	Unsure, perhaps wheat as it’s on an oasis which is farmed

This is modified from arch4ngelsk’s suggestion. I have deleted Geok-Gumbuz, as the location of its namesake is highly unclear and almost the entirety of the drawn area in their suggestion is desert and occupied only by caravansarais. Also, seemingly the main role of Geok-Gumbuz in their proposal is to fill the narrow arm connecting Merv and Amol, but that area consisted of a road through the desert connected by caravansarais and probably shouldn’t be represented by its own location or by wide borders.

I have retained the Khurmuzfarra location, as the namesake can be placed precisely well within the shape and it is labeled as “major city” in one source (Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Turkmenistan 2023, 633). I have significantly redrawn the shape compared to arch4ngelsk’s suggestion: the northern border has been moved southward to align better with the border between the oasis and the desert, and the eastern arm which connects to Amol has been given to this location. The borders of that eastern arm have also been pushed to the north so that they properly enclose the medieval road from Merv to Amol, which can be well placed based on the ruins of caravanserais along that road (Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Turkmenistan 2023). The existing arm mostly follows the current paved road, which is further south than the medieval road (William & Wordsworth 2008).

The borders of Merv would remain as they are, except for where the new Khurmuzfarra location supersedes them.

However, considering the extent to which Merv was the center of gravity of the area, I don't think it's egregious if you stick to one location. It might mainly be a decision of how big you want the location(s) in this oasis to be. If you decide to leave this region as one location only, I would still suggest pushing the borders of the eastern arm to the north as described above, to properly cover the location of the medieval road.

Khwarazm-Jand Corridor
View attachment 1194036

A corridor should exist connecting Jand to the core of Khwarazm oasis. I consider this probably the most important change in this comment, considering the historical importance of the connection and the massive impact it will have on gameplay connections in the region. This road is regularly mentioned in the sources as a route for armies, and there were even periods where Jand was subject to Khwarazm.

As the sources I have seen do not really discuss the precise route of the road, or where it terminates in Khwarazm, I have drawn the eastern part starting at Jand as curving along the Janadarya River (since that seems reasonable), and once that ends I simply drew the shortest route across the desert. There is also mention in the sources of a road between Jankent/Yanikant (which is along the Syr Darya further north than this map covers, and seemingly ceased to exist prior to the start of the game) and Khwarazm, but since Jand and Jankent were close to each other and likely part of the same network I’m treating them as one here in terms of quoting sources.

Note many of these quotes are about times shortly before the Mongol Invasion, and therefore outside the time frame of the game, but that’s because that is a period where there are comparatively plenty of written records and the locations in question were regional power centers. I see no indication that the corridor would have become impassible by the time of the game.


Barthold 1968, 178

Barthold 1968, 298 – but note further down a successful traversal in summer.

Barthold 1968, 314

Barthold 1968, 328-9

Barthold 1968, 342-3

Barthold 1968, 356

Barthold 1968, 433

Golev 2021, 47

Harke & Azhantseva 2021, 55
View attachment 1194039
Map of tenth century towns and travel routes, from Harke & Azhantseva 2021, 57

Nurota-Zemukh Corridor
View attachment 1194040

This is a much more tenuous suggestion that can easily be rejected, but it’s kind of fun so I thought I’d include it. It’s based on a road from a place near Otrar to Nurata, whose brief moment in the spotlight was a use by the Mongols, and then being traveled by a writer, both prior to the game’s time frame. It then may have been in continued use after, but it’s not really clear.


Barthold 1968, 408

Samangan-Kahmard Border Connection
View attachment 1194041

These two provinces should have their borders connect. A road between Balkh and Bamyan used in the era passed through here. The orange box is drawn at roughly the point where the actual road lies, but of course you could draw the connection over a larger border area as well. I have left the town of Madar marked on the map as it’s mentioned in the quotes below and is the primary evidence for drawing this connection.

Barthold 1968, 68

Barthold 1984, 23-24

If you go to Madar, Afghanistan in Google Maps and go to satellite view you can follow the road heading north through the passes towards the Khulm River.

Renames
Kunya-Urgench → Urgench: I already posted this one. Kunya here means “old,” and “new” Urgench wasn’t founded until the 19th century. The city is called just plain “Urgench” (with various spellings) in all sources relating to the period of the game, even maps from the 18th century.

Kerki → Zamm: Zamm was the medieval name of this location. I am unable to find exactly when the name changed, but it is still called Zamm on maps from the 18th century and even one outlier from the 19th century, so I suspect it was Zamm for much of the game period. The complicating factor here is that one period source called it “Karkūh,” so it’s also possible that both names co-existed during this period. Nevertheless, the modern sources all call it Zamm in that era and most period sources seem to as well.

Barthold 1968, 80

Barthold 1984, 19

Bosworth, C. E. “ĀMOL (ĀMŪYA),” in Encyclopædia Iranica

Zamm on maps

View attachment 1194048	View attachment 1194049	View attachment 1194050
de l’Isle & Bauche 1745	de Vaugondy 1753	Reichard 1817

Sources
Texts
Abu al-Ghazi Bahadur. A General History of the Turks, Moguls and Tatars, Vulgarly Called Tartars: Together with a Description of the Countries They Inhabit. Vol. 1. London: J.and J. Knapton, 1729. http://archive.org/details/39020025955496-ageneralhistory. This is an 18th century translation into English from the French translation from the original Chagatai. I’m sure it’s not an ideal version but there doesn’t seem to have been any later translations and I don’t speak Chagatai.

Barthold, V. V. “Information about the Aral Sea and the Lower Reaches of the Amudarya from Ancient Times to the XVII Century.” 1902. Published in Russian as “Сведения об Аральском море и низовьях Амударьи с древнейших времен до XVII века”; I put the original through Google Translate for my quotes.

Barthold, V. V. Four Studies on the History of Central Asia. Translated by V. Minorsky and T. Minorsky. Vol. 3. Leiden: Brill, 1962. https://archive.org/details/dli.pahar.3200.

Barthold, V. V. Turkestan Down to the Mongol Invasion. Edited by Clifford Edmund Bosworth. 3rd ed. New Delhi, India: Munshiram Manoharlal Publishers, 1968. The 2nd edition, which I think is largely the same, is available at https://archive.org/details/Barthold1928Turkestan.

Barthold, V. V. An Historical Geography of Iran. Translated by Svat Soucek. Princeton University Press, 1984.

Golev, Konstantin. “The Cities along the Syr Darya in 11th–13th Cc.: Jand and Sïghnaq between the Cuman-Qïpchaqs and the Khwārazmshāhs Anushteginids.” Acta Orientalia Academiae Scientiarum Hungaricae 74, no. 1 (2021): 11–52.

Hanway, Jonas. An Historical Account of the British Trade Over the Caspian Sea: With a Journal of Travels from London through Russia into Persia; and Back Again through Russia, Germany and Holland. Vol. 1. London: Dodsley, etc., 1753. http://archive.org/details/b30414702_0001.

Härke, Heinrich, and Irina Arzhantseva. “Interfaces and Crossroads, Contexts and Communications: Early Medieval Towns in the Syr-Darya Delta (Kazakhstan).” Journal of Urban Archaeology 3 (2021): 51–63.

Leroy, S.A.G., P.J. Reimer, H.K. Lahijani, A. Naderi Beni, E. Sauer, F. Chalié, K. Arpe, et al. “Caspian Sea Levels over the Last 2200 Years, with New Data from the S-E Corner.” Geomorphology 403 (2022): 108136.

Encyclopædia Iranica https://iranicaonline.org
Williams, Tim, and Paul Wordsworth. “Merv to the Oxus: a desert survey of routes and surviving archaeology.” Archaeology International 12, no. 1 (2008).

Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Turkmenistan. “Silk Roads: Zarafshan-Karakum Corridor: Serial Transnational World Heritage Nomination.” UNESCO, 2023. https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1675/documents/.

Maps
all links go to high-res interactive viewers

Reichard, C.G. Persia. In: Gaspari, A.C. Allgemeiner Hand-Atlas der Ganzen Erde. 1817. https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~276116~90049324:XLIII--Persia

d’Anville, Jean-Baptiste Bourguignon. Carte La Plus Generale et qui comprend La Chine, La Tartarie Chinoise, et le Thibet, Dressee sur les Carte Particulierees des RR PP Jesuites. 1737. https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail/61775op/carte-la-plus-generale-et-qui-comprend-la-chine-la-tartarie-danville

de Vaugondy, Robert. Etats du Grand-Seigneur en Asie, Empire de Perse, Pays des Usbecs, Arabie et Egypte. 1753. https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/se...80~490059:Etats-du-Grand-Seigneur-en-Asie,-Em

de l’Isle, Guillaume, and Philippe Bauche. Carte de la Turquie de l’Arabie et de la Perse. 1745. https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/de...bie-et-de-la-perse-dressee-sur-delisle-buache

Elton, John, and Thomas Woodroofe. A Plain Chart of the Caspian-Sea, According to the Observations of Capt. John Elton, Author of Elton's Quadrant, and Thomas Woodroofe, Master of the British Ship Empress of Russia, Who navigated this Sea three years; Presented to Mr. Jonas Hanway of St. Petersburgh in 1745 by his most Obedient Servant Thomas Woodroofe. 1753. https://www.geographicus.com/P/AntiqueMap/caspian-gibson-1753

Santini, Paolo, and Giovanni Antonio Remondini. Carte de L’Empire de Perse. 1779. https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/de...te-de-lempire-de-perse-1779-santini-remondini



Now I just have to compile the dynamic naming list that I accidentally created by reading so many sources



We now return to your regularly scheduled Georgian programming

It's always nice when people with genuine passion and care write stuff like this

 

[SuperLexxe]

I decided to check some sources and here's summary of what i found about Georgia's ownership of Armenia during this time:
View attachment 1192438
Although the rulers of Javakheti, Kvemo Kartli and Lori were called "provincial kings", this was probably because they were of a royal origin, but ofc it could be debated that part of a reason was that they were quite autonomous from Georgia. We have to also take in context the fact that there isn't a ruler specified during 1320-1340 years between Melkisedek and Andronicus and it could be debated that the reason for that was that it was directly controlled by Georgia during that period, although that is just my opinion. Nevertheless it should at least be under vassalage by them.
View attachment 1192448
It was probably smaller that this, I just wanted to show which regions Javakheti, Lower Kartli and Lori are.

View attachment 1192407
Also according to this David IX (1346-1360) lost Laz, Kars, Nakhichevan (Nakchivan) and Garnisi (Garni, close to Yerevan) territories. This means that Georgia should have had much of the Armenian territories before him, during the reign of George V (the king in 1337). Although I don't know how much direct control they had over them, they should at least be their vassal. It's more likely that Lori was under direct Georgian control then the rest of Armenia.

View attachment 1192408View attachment 1192409
According to this Ossetia (Alania) should be a Georgian vassal too during this period, I don't have any more information about that though:
View attachment 1192464
View attachment 1192435

We can also take a look at the Persian inscription on the wall of Menucihr mosque in Ani (dated between May-June 1319 to 30 November 1335):
View attachment 1192453
View attachment 1192455
View attachment 1192456
In German:
View attachment 1192457
View attachment 1192458
In English (according to google translate):
View attachment 1192460
I don't fully understand what they are talking about, but as I poorly understood it's about some taxes being abolished, which devastated the city of Ani and other provinces of Georgia.
Although it is a persian scripture we should remember that Georgia was still under Ilkhanate before 1327 and it is possible that the scripture was written during those times. Also since Ani is mentioned with the other provinces of Georgia I feel like it is a proof that the Georgian influence in the region is far stronger than we thought.
If anyone knows Arabic/German and supports or denies my claim I would be happy.

The confusion that Armenia wasn't a part of Georgia during this period probably came from the fact that Chobanids and Jalairid Mongols were fighting on those very lands (and could have had some Armenians among their ranks):
View attachment 1192436

In my mind it makes sense that most of Armenia should be under Georgia directly/vassal. I hope most of what I said made sense.

Sources:
Rayfield, Donald, 1942 – Edge of empires : a history of Georgia.
Historical dictionary of Georgia / Alexander Mikaberidze (2007).
Die persische Inschrift an der Mauer der Manūčehr- Moschee zu Ani, Von Wilhelm Barthold

I will edit the map according to this then. I am very doubtful about Georgia having a centralized control over Armenia, like the other guy suggests.

 

[FFLS]

Where are the sogdians?

 

[Georgian Noble]

Ah, here comes the time when I'm critiquing The appearance of East Georgia in So called "project Caesar".

Well, well. East Georgia (also known as: Likhs Amereti, Kartli, Kartl-Kakheti, Iberia...) is the heart of Georgia. One of the three main subgroups of Georgians - Karts, started out here and were expanding slowly through two millennias until they united whole Georgia in 1008 year A.C. Tbilisi, the capital city, is also located here in east Georgia. So let's find out what is up with it.

Firstly, here is a map of historic geographical provinces of Eastern Georgia:

Kartli and Kakheti are Breadbaskets of Georgia and one of the most airable, fertile lands in whole region. Kartli mostly produces fruit and granular products. While same is true about Kakheti, it is also one of the biggest per-capita Wine-producing regions in the entire world.

here is a land mass map of fertile land in upper Kartli region.

other fertile land masses around Georgia. as you can see it's mostly located in Kakheti. I think instead of flatlands there should be farmlands in Gori, Rustavi and Gremi. Wheat shoulf be produced in Gori instead of Iron. If not wheat at least fruits. If not it's an insult for Kartlian land.

This one is a preview for new province mapmode suggestion from me. Let's focus on the east Georgian provinces. As u can probably see, I've altered some locations and added a few. Firstly Jarekhi should be part of Kingdom of Georgia. Locals are Georgians, they have always declared king of Georgia as their rightful overlord. Same is true about Omalo. Omalo (Tusheti) is a historical Georgian province. The influence of Georgian kings didn't spread in only Omalo though, they even held influence over Didoeti to the east as well.

map of Didoeti in Geprgian:

but I don't know id Didos were under Georgian rule during this time in history. So if u have sources please if u have a source for it comment.

So about provinces. First one I'll talk about today is Inner Kartli. here is a map of it:

So as u might have already noticed, I've divided Karli into two: Inner and Lower Kartli. they are marked by Trialeti range between them. Inner Kartli is, as I've mentioned before, one of breadbaskets of Georgia, so it always had high population. And Mtkvari river grows in size here, because several rivers like Liakhvi, Ksani and Aragvi flow into it from the Caucasus Mountains. This creates Perfect farming conditions.

As of locations. Imo Gori location shape should be altered into a shape alike to one on the map I've posted above and new "Surami" location should be added to the East. Surami Was castle and a settlement where from that pass between the west, east and South Georgia was guarded and watched over. It has imperative strategical importance.

- Surami is highlighted on the map. Also Surami-Shorapani should be the only direct pass between the east and west Georgia. as there are Likhi mountains between these two and it was extremally hard to pass on other places. Likhi has insignificant place in Georgian history, geography and culture. Very few invaders were ever able to cross it from the east Georgia. Even Mongols didn't (Tamerlane did sadly).


Because of this, impassable terrain should be altered like this:

I've marked impassible locations proposed by me with red color. I'll talk about others later. Now, about Surami. As I said, Shorapani-Surami should be the only direct connecting locations to each other between the east and the west Georgia. also Tori-Surami (If Tinto team decides not to change it, Akhaltsikhe-Surami) should be one of only two connecting locations between South and East Georgia, the other one being Akhalkalaki-Kldekari pass.

Other things about Surami, population should be around 20-25 k. Terrain should be hills and woods. raw materials: legumes.
















Location 2: Gori. Gori should be fertile farmlands with population around 60-70k. This part of Georgia, thanks to agriculture has always been one of the most populated ones. Migration of peasants from western and southern Georgia also helped. is should be bordered by impassible Trialeti range from the south. Grain should be a raw material here.

Other locations: Mtkheta looks good, Population could be higher though and it should rather be hills, than mountains. Kvenipnevi also looks good but I'd add impassable mountains to the east (Mtiuleti range). Also I'd alter It's Shape a bit and add brand new Tskhinvali location instead of Tsagvli (view on maps 4 and 6). Tskhinvali would be located on historical Samachablo feudal substate (called "Satavados" in Georgia). It was sparsely populated mountainous and forested land. I thnk population here should be round 5-10 k. same should be true about kvenipnevi or "Ksani saeristavo" satavado, around 5k people. I Think Dusheti should be part of inner Katli rather than Kakheti Province. This "Dusheti" location was called "Aragvis saeristavo" and was part of Kartli historically and I'd rather call it "Ananuri". "Jarekhi" should be the part of the Kingdom of Georgia and Inner Katli province. Jarekhi, which is called Khevi in Georgian, has been part of Georgia since anticity, very important "Dariali pass" is located here which had been guarded By Georgians since forever. as of demographics, I think population should be majority Georgian all over Inner Kartli. I'd say around 90-95% Georgian eastern orthodox Christian with Georgian Jewish, catholic and Armenian minorities all around. I think Oseetians should be a strong minority in Tskhinvali and Dvaleti, but I don't know for sure, as king George V kicked them out.

Kvemo Kartli province:

This province Should be called "Lower Kartli" (or "Kvemo Kartli" in Georgian). I suggest adding Gardabani and Manglisi locations. Gardabani should be flatland grasslands, producing either wool, livestock or legumes with population around 20-25k. while Manglisi Should be woods and hills producing Iron with population of somewhere near 10k. About changes I'd make in already existing locations : Kldekari must be sparce plateau (I mean look at the map) with 5-10k population. Dmanisi, on the other hand, Woods and Hills with same amount of population. Tbilisi, the beautiful capital of Georgia, leave it as it is. About demographics: Kldekari and Manglisi should have almost exclusively Georgian population, while Dmanisi and Gardabani should have very strong Armenian Apostolic minority. Tbilisi Should be mostly Georgian with strong Armenian and Jewish minority. As of other ones, I think small pockets of nearby living Ethnic and religious groups, like Greeks, Persians, Arabs, Kurds, Udis and Assyrians, would live in Tbilisi.

Lets move on to Kakheti:

Kakheti today has very different borders than it had in medieval times as Heretian identity swallowed into Kakhetian one after Kingdom of Kakheti become an offshoot Georgian state in 1466 after King George VIII fled there from King Bagrat VI (they both claimed to be the rightful king of Georgia). Despite everything, the borders shown above depicts Kakheti at the time somewhat accurately. In this aspect I agree with Tinto team with almost everything. But I still have some notes to make.

As I've said before, Dusheti should rather be part of Kartli than of Kakheti. Instead of it, I suggest, adding Omalo a one of Kakhetian locations and part of the Kingdom of Georgia in general. Omalo (Tusheti) is historical part of Georgia. We know that Pkhovians (Shatili location) migrated there in 4th century after they raised up against King Mirian IV after he converted to Christianity. Nakh people called "Batsbs" or "Tsovatushs" also live in Omalo.

here is the map of mountainous eastern Georgia. I've marked Batb settlement as "Tsovati".

here are regions of kingdom of Kakheti in XVIII-th century as you can see Tinto team captured it's historical parts amicably. But Omalo is missing...

The last one Hereti:

Hereti is another historical province in the east Georgia. It's borders have never been clearly defined. At times Heretian influence has been spreading over in North Caucasus, Gish region of modern day Azerbaijan and also was never defined to east with Kakheti ether. Hereti was not always a Georgian province, as, In ancient times, it was one of Georgian names for Caucasian Albania. Hereti, Rani, Arani, Alvaneti was all names of it in Georgian. Hereti was, most likely, name of eastern most province of Albania with which Georgians had most frequent interactions with. After Arabian invasion, Hereti was gradually Gorgonized thanks to it's eastern Orthodox religion. while other parts of Caucasian Albania were ether Islamized and then merged into larger Islamic peoples, assimilated into Armenian culture, or preserved their identity and language - Udis and Lezgs are good example for this. After king Bagrat IV-s conquest, Hereti became forever Georgian.

Okay so I agree with game developers on dividing this province into 5 locations. But despite that I have some problems with it. Those ones being, firstly, Shape of some of Locations. There never was a such settlement or a fortification called "Hereti" so naming some location is, imo, wrong. I suggest naming it "Khunani" which is much more historical and accurate location name. it being between Kura and Iori rivers also make sense, because it would have some natural boundaries. Same with Bodbe and Khornabuji.






My other and much bigger compliant however is about demographics. So my mother is from "Khornabuji" location or Dedoplistskaro municipality herself, so I have a great incite about it and nearby locations.I should say that in some places population is way too high. so 30k population in Bodbe and 17k population Belakani is cool, but in Khoranbuji there were, and still are, not enough settlements to support such a high number of population (30K). Same with "Hereti" location. there are no more than 5-6 settlements in both parts of Azerbaijan and Georgia that the location covers.

so, even today, in Dedoplistkaro municipality(On the map), which would cover partly both Khornabuji and Hereti locations on Tinto version of the map, there are 16 settlements. While most of them have more than 1000 people living there, same was not true in the middle ages. Also, out of those 19 settlements only 5 (in red circle) were actually populated in middle ages. Others got populated in different times during or after XIX-th century (explained on the map). To be honest though, around 5-10 settlements in Sighnanghi municipality also would still be part of Khornabuji location, so 10-15k population sounds just fine. Same is not true for Hereti location though, 3k people would be a generous estimations for it.












About Kaki (Qakh) location, firstly Georgians called it Kak-Eliseni or just Kakhi or Kaki, not Qakh. It would be way more populated than 11k people. There were many settlements there. Dozen rivers flowing down from Caucasus mountains make it a perfect place for human accommodation. so 25-30k people there sounds just good enough to me.

Other think about Hereti. I want to make a note about it's cultural composition. So, WHAT ON EARTH IS ADHARI CULTURE DOING IN KAKHI??? There are thousand documents from early XIV-th century that suggest that This Place was just as Georgian as any other locations to its east. Firstly, There is not even a little hint that Iranic peoples lived here, it's a complete bs not only from geographical point of view, but also from historical one. There are no mosques in Kaki or Kakh dating back before 17th century, when Daghestanis migrated there. Secondly, There are still many Georgians living in Qax, Belakan and Zakatala districts of Azerbaijan.

Here are two images describing demographic picture of those districts even in 21 century. So after Dagestanis took over it, most of Christian Georgians left for Kakheti, while ones that stayed most of the times were slowly assimilated into much larger Azeri and Dagestani identities. Georgians here were enslaved and forcefully Islamized by Persians and Avars and were called "Ingiloy", which literally means newly Islamized in Turkic. In mid XIX-th century Georgians living In Qax returned to Christianity though. So after 400 year ill-treatment and literal slavery strong Georgian minority still exists in Qax to this day and you guys are literally telling us that those Georgians are Adhars? Thirdly, there are historical records of Georgian churches being here and toponymics also are a good indicator of Georgian trace (I'm saying trace as if Georgians disappeared from Kakhi haha, they are still there). Here is one example: village of "Lekit". Lekit is located in middle of Qax district of Azerbaijan, near which no ethic Georgian villages are located. Despite this, there is a IX century church ruins there, we have historical documents that state visiting of Patriarch "Ekvtime III" in Lekit during the reign of the king George V "the brilliant", who is the king at the launche of the game. Also Lekit is Azeri name for this village, in Georgian it's named "Lekarti" which literally means "Georgian place" lol. Mose Janashvili, a Georgian Scholar who as litterally from Kakhi himself, says:

so there's no doubt that Kak-Eliseni, or "Qax" as you call it, was Georgian ethnically (probably with Udi minority).

P.s. My mothers family name is originally from Kakhi too. She has Georgian surname, not Iranian.

About toponymics, please give Georgian locations Georgian names : Lori - Lore, Balakan - Belakani, Qakh - Kaki/Kakhi. Kaki is the correct version. Kakhi/Qax is Azeri one. Here is Mose Janashvili talking about this issue:

I know it's in Georgian, but I really can't ask for the scientific analysis in English language from a guy that wrote most of these articles in XIXth century.

About Udis, they probably were the majority in many locations especially in Gish, Vartashen and Nij. There is a strong Udi influence on Ingiloy (Belakani and Kakhi) and Kizikian (Khornabuji and Bodbe) dialect of Georgian language, without them being a majority or a strong minority in nearby provinces this wouldn't have been possible.

The last point I want to make - Tbilisi was the center of the trade in Caucasus, not Trapezund.

I think it's all for today. East Georgia is larger than southern one and I had to investigate a whole lot more, also my uni started this week and I barely had any time. Same as last one, feel free to criticize me. I'll try to follow up with Western Georgian part ASAP.

On the ending note, here is a picture of Khevsur (Shatili) warriors :

Here is a list of Georgian noble families form:
Kartli:

• Abamelik (Armenian)
• Abashishvili
• Abashidze
• Amatun (Armenian)
• Amilakhvari
• Amirejibi
• Arghutashvili (Mkhargrdzeli/Zakarian)
• Avalishvili
• Bagrationi (the ruling dynasty)
• Baratashvili
• Bebutashvili
• Begtabegishvili
• Chkheidze
• Davitashvili (Bagrationi cadet branch)
• Diasamidze
• Dolenjashvili
• Eristavi of Aragvi
• Eristavi of Ksani
• Gedevanishvili
• Gostashabishvili
• Guramishvili
• Iaralishvili
• Iashvili
• Iotamishvili
• Javakhishvili
• Kachibadze
• Kamsarakan (Armenian)
• Kherkheulidze
• Khidirbegishvili
• Khojaminasovi (Armenian)
• Kvenipneveli
• Machabeli
• Maghalashvili
• Melikishvili (Armenian)
• Mukhraneli (Bagrationi cadet branch)
• Orbeliani
• Palavandishvili
• Pavlenishvili
• Ratishvili
• Revazishvili
• Saakadze
• Shalikashvili
• Shaburidze
• Sharvashidze
• Sidamonidze
• Sologhashvili
• Sumbatashvili
• Taktakishvili
• Tarkhnishvili
• Tumanishvili
• Tsitsishvili
• Vezirishvili
• Zedginidze
• Zurabishvili

Kakheti-Hereti:

• Abashidze
• Andronikashvili
• Apkhazi
• Arghutashvili (Mkhargrdzeli/Zakarian)
• Avalishvili
• Babadishvili
• Bagrationi (the ruling dynasty)
• Chavchavadze (Tchavtchavadze)
• Cherkezishvili
• Cholokashvili
• Guramishvili
• Gurgenidze
• Erubakidze
• Iashvili
• Jandieri
• Japaridze
• Jorjadze
• Karalashvili
• Khimshiashvili
• Kobulashvili
• Lionidze
• Makashvili
• Robitashvili
• Rusishvili
• Saginashvili
• Shalikashvili
• Sidamonidze
• Tusishvili
• Vachnadze
• Vakhvavkishvili

 

[GenericUsername1444]

@Georgian Noble

 

[Ispil]

I suspect that the population of Urgench (it really should just be Urgench, not Konye Urgench) is on the low side. Also, should have some pretty high development, as per Ibn Battuta:

It should also have an RGO of fruit:

 

[Ispil]

Also, I suppose Bukhara could have an RGO of fruit as well (as opposed to wheat):

Technically "a day out" of the town proper, but that's within the location.

 

[Georgian Noble]

@Georgian Noble

Much appreciated!

 

[Ispil]

Termez, meanwhile, should grow wheat, not fruit:

(Tirmidh is Termez)

 

[Ispil]

Also, the population of Kath seems... high. Obviously you can't take Ibn Battuta exactly at his word (pretty much every place he describes is "the finest and greatest of towns", which is unhelpful), but we can use him for a relative comparison. Looking above at his description of Urgench, this is how he describes Kath:

I think it's safe to say that Kath should be much less developed and much smaller than Urgench, if that's how he describes it right after leaving Urgench.

 

[Ekyman]

I suspect that the population of Urgench (it really should just be Urgench, not Konye Urgench) is on the low side. Also, should have some pretty high development, as per Ibn Battuta:

I think it's safe to say that Kath should be much less developed and much smaller than Urgench, if that's how he describes it right after leaving Urgench.

Yes, my impression was that Urgench should be the most populated and most developed location in Khwarazm, or certainly among them. Its big decline apparently came later, after the river shifted course away from it.

It was the capital of the Khwarazm Empire, after all, and even though it got wrecked by the Mongols as with most of the cities in the region it still seemed to hold some luster.

 

[Ispil]

Similarly, why is Herat so low on the development chart, and such low population?

And Tus, and Mashhad?

There should also be a Nestorian presence in Tus, and perhaps a bit of the surrounding area:

Nishapur also seems rather low on the population and development side of things:

 

[SuperLexxe]

---

Added Georgia changes, though I must say personally it still doesn't feel quite right, hence I do not consider these changes as legit. The sources provided mention Georgian influence in Armenia in the years of Abu Sa'ids reign, but the Ilkhanate was in its "golden era" at that time. In this context, I would take such claims of grandeur with a grain of salt.

It is simply conjecture, but I believe that when sources mention Armenia under Georgia, it is because Armenia was considered Georgia for much of its history. So while the Mongols transferred the pragmatic vassal relations (taxes & levies) of the Armenians to themselves, the Armenians were still nominally under Georgian suzerainity, as seen with the Armenians holding various Georgian titles, be it for prestige or legitimacy, while under the Ilkhanate.

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The below source is more critical of Georgian influence at the time, with a few choice screenshots. It is likely that after the fall of Chupan, king Giorgi V lost much of his standing within the Ilkhanate, and of his influence over the Armenians, with whom he shared only a nominal liege relationship. It also goes on to detail some of the contrast between the Georgian histories and the contemporary Persian and Arabic writings and tax accounts, and of the numismatic history.

Why would Georgia mint Mongol coinage in Tiflis, the capital of Georgia, long after breaking off with them, nevermind continuing to pay tribute, despite having "expelled" the Mongols?

"Georgia in the Reign of Giorgi the Brilliant" (1955):

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[Ispil]

Yes, my impression was that Urgench should be the most populated and most developed location in Khwarazm, or certainly among them. Its big decline apparently came later, after the river shifted course away from it.

It was the capital of the Khwarazm Empire, after all, and even though it got wrecked by the Mongols as with most of the cities in the region it still seemed to hold some luster.

Agreed. Also just going off of the description (Kath being "the only settled place on the road") and that general fact, Khiva should also be much less populated than Urgench. Like... just move all those people from Khiva to Urgench.

 

[Ekyman]

Agreed. Also just going off of the description (Kath being "the only settled place on the road") and that general fact, Khiva should also be much less populated than Urgench. Like... just move all those people from Khiva to Urgench.

Yep.

The thing is before the Mongols the entire region was highly populated and developed (with Urgench at the top of that list) and by the end of the 14th century Timur had razed and massacred Urgench and the river shifted and other cities took primacy while Urgench declined. There’s just a brief period between the Mongols and Timur where both Urgench is the prime city of the region and the rest of the region is pretty wrecked. So it’s easy to use a later source and implement diminished Urgench or an earlier source and make everything populated.

I suspect Merv is also more populated than it should be, since the Mongols did a real number on it and the sources I’ve seen don’t speak highly of the post-Mongol era. But I haven’t done a real look at it in comparison to everywhere else and haven’t looked at any natural estimates or numbers or anything so it’s hard to say that strongly.

 

[Ispil]

I suspect Merv is also more populated than it should be, since the Mongols did a real number on it and the sources I’ve seen don’t speak highly of the post-Mongol era. But I haven’t done a real look at it in comparison to everywhere else and haven’t looked at any natural estimates or numbers or anything so it’s hard to say that strongly.

My understanding is that Merv had a minor bounce-back (insomuch that the fortifications were rebuilt and that it still had some Nestorian stuff going on there at the time), but entered a slow and steady decline after whatever mild recovery it managed from the Mongol massacre of its inhabitants.

I'd say the population estimate there is fine. 66k, coming down from a high of... 700k? Historically, it would then stagnate and diminish over the passing centuries.

 

[Georgian Noble]

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Added Georgia changes, though I must say personally it still doesn't feel quite right. The sources provided mention Georgian influence in Armenia in the years of Abu Sa'ids reign, but the Ilkhanate was in its "golden era" at that time. In this context, I would take such claims of grandeur with a grain of salt.

It is simply conjecture, but I believe that when sources mention Armenia under Georgia, it is because Armenia was considered Georgia for much of its history. So while the Mongols transferred the pragmatic vassal relations (taxes & levies) of the Armenians to themselves, the Armenians were still nominally under Georgian suzerainity, as seen with the Armenians holding various Georgian titles, be it for prestige or legitimacy, while under the Ilkhanate.

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View attachment 1194484

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The below source is more critical of Georgian influence at the time, with a few choice screenshots. It is likely that after the fall of Chupan, king Giorgi V lost much of his standing within the Ilkhanate, and of his influence over the Armenians, with whom he shared only a nominal liege relationship. It also goes on to detail some of the contrast between the Georgian histories and the Persian and Arabic writings and tax accounts, and of the numismatic history. Why would Georgia mint Mongol coinage long after breaking off with them, nevermind continuing to pay tribute, despite having "expelled" the Mongols?

"Georgia in the Reign of Giorgi the Brilliant" (1955):

View attachment 1194470
View attachment 1194475
View attachment 1194477

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This is amazing! Please, if you have time, can you search for any documents about Tsez people(Didos), and their province "Didoeti"? I'm trying to find any historical source about their political belonging in 14th century but google scholar is no good.

 

[SuperLexxe]

This is amazing! Please, if you have time, can you search for any documents about Tsez people(Didos), and their province "Didoeti"? I'm trying to find any historical source about their political belonging in 14th century but google scholar is no good.

Unfortunately could only find reference to their existence in the 15th century. Other literature is, as usual, behind paywall or university access.

 

[Georgian Noble]

Unfortunately could only find reference to their existence in the 15th century. Other literature is, as usual, behind paywall or university access.

thanks a lot, maybe you could link the other source here. I don't think my university access would work, but worth trying anyways