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Tinto Maps #18 - 13th of September 2024 - Persia & Caucasus

Hello everyone, and welcome to one more Tinto Maps! Today we will be taking a look at Persia and the Caucasus! These are regions that encompass several modern-day countries and regions (Iraq, Iran, Balochistan, Afghanistan, Transoxiana, etc.), but for the sake of simplicity, we decided to name this DD this. Let’s start, without further ado!

Countries:
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The region is quite interesting in 1337, as there are plenty of countries to play with. The Ilkhanate is still alive, but in name only, the real power being hosted by the Jalayirids, who are overlords of some of their neighbors (the Chobanids, and the Eretnids). Other countries, such as Gurgan, the Kartids, and Muzaffarids are also struggling to get the hegemony over the region. Meanwhile, the strongest power in the Caucasus is the Kingdom of Georgia, although the region is also quite fragmented among different polities.

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And speaking of the Ilkhanate, you may have wondered why isn’t it a unified tag… Well, it’s because we consider that it is clearly in decadence, having lost any grasp of authority over the provinces, so the best way of portraying it is through an International Organization. What we can see in this mapmode is that there are two pretenders to get the power, the Jalayarids and Gurgan, with the other countries still being formally part of it. I won’t talk more today about how it works and its features, but I’ll just say that there are two clear fates for the Ilkhanate: being dissolved, as historically happened, or being restored in full power as a unified country.

Dynasties:
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Not much to say today about the dynasties, as they’re akin to the country names, in most cases. Well, you might wonder which one is the yellow one, ruling over Gurgan… That country is ruled by the Borgijin, heirs of Genghis Khan. Now you get the full picture of their rule over the Ilkhanate being challenged by the Jalayirids, I think…

Locations:
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Provinces:
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Areas:
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Terrain:
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We’re back to a region with lots of different climates, topography, and vegetation. This will make it very unique, gameplay and looking-wise.

Harbors:
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You might notice that there are ports in the Caspian Sea… Because, well, it’s considered a sea in our game, so there can be ships and navies over it.

Cultures:
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There's quite a lot of cultural division throughout the region... The Caucasus is, well, the Caucasus, divided among lots of different people. Then we have the Iraqi and Kurdish in Iraq, Persian and a number of other cultures in Iran, Baloch in Balochistan, Afghan in Afghanistan, and Khorasani, Turkmen, Khorezm, Hazara, and Tajiks, among others, in Khorasan and Transoxiana.

Religions:
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Another interesting religious situation. Orthodox is the main religion in Georgia, and Miaphysitism in Armenia, with other confessions spread here and there throughout the Caucasus (Khabzeism, and three 'Pagan' confessions, Karachay-Balkar, Vainakh, and Lezgin). Then Iraq is divided among Sunni, to the north, and Shiism, to the south. And Iran is in an interesting situation, having a Sunni majority, but with some important Shiite pockets here and there. And Zoroastrianism, of course. It was not trivial to properly portray them, as we don't have good data for the 14th century. So what we did was some calculations, between sources that tell that there was still a majority as late as the 11th century, and the religion becoming severely reduced by the 16th century. Therefore, we decided to go with 20% of the population as a general rule of thumb; however, we're quite open to feedback over this matter.

Raw Materials:
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This region is full of rich resources, in stark contrast to the one we showed last week, Arabia. There are a couple of bugs on this mapmode that you might spot, I think.

Markets:
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This region has several markets: Tabriz, Baghdad, Esfahan, Hormuz, Nishapur, and Zaranj., This will make for regionally fragmented-but-integrated economies (that is, good market access everyhwere, but with regionally diverging economies).

Population:
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The total population of the region is around 9M, taking into account all the different areas that we’re showing today. That is divided into about 4.5M in Iran, 2M in Iraq, 1.5M in the Caucasus, and around 1.5M in Transoxiana.

And that’s all for today! Next Friday we will be taking a look at India! Yes, in its entirety; we think that it is the best way to do it, although we’ll talk more about it next week. Another change, only for next week: the DD will be published at 10:00 instead of the regular 15:00, as I won’t be available in the afternoon to reply. Letting you know so there’s a proper wow-pole-run, yes. See you!
 

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This is amazing! Please, if you have time, can you search for any documents about Tsez people(Didos), and their province "Didoeti"? I'm trying to find any historical source about their political belonging in 14th century but google scholar is no good.
When i was making my Northeast Caucasus feedback post i did find the Dido/Tsez in a bunch of maps depicting the region close to the game's time date having depicting them, But besides those raw maps it was very hard to find material indicating their existence much harder than the other ones i mentioned like the Kaitag Utsimiate and others so i ended up not including them if you guys can find any material it would be great but it was very hard even the Russian Wikipedia didn't have anything if you guys have sources better than that it would be even better
 
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When i was making my Northeast Caucasus feedback post i did find the Dido/Tsez in a bunch of maps depicting the region close to the game's time date having depicting them, But besides those raw maps it was very hard to find material indicating their existence much harder than the other ones i mentioned like the Kaitag Utsimiate and others so i ended up not including them if you guys can find any material it would be great but it was very hard even the Russian Wikipedia didn't have anything if you guys have sources better than that it would be even better
They're mentioned a few times in the Georgian Chronicles (Kartlis Tskhovreba) with extremely vague geographical information but I'm not sure how useful that is.
 
When i was making my Northeast Caucasus feedback post i did find the Dido/Tsez in a bunch of maps depicting the region close to the game's time date having depicting them, But besides those raw maps it was very hard to find material indicating their existence much harder than the other ones i mentioned like the Kaitag Utsimiate and others so i ended up not including them if you guys can find any material it would be great but it was very hard even the Russian Wikipedia didn't have anything if you guys have sources better than that it would be even better
so didos appear about 130 years leater as a part of newly founded kingdom of Kakheti. It's implied that Didoeti was part of Georgia even before it's break up, cause smaller Georgian states couldn't have possibly afford funding subjugation wars in north Caucasus
 
Hahah, meanwhile me spending my childhood summers in Tsinandali, surrounded by the lushness of inner Kakheti.

I'm not sure if this is true or not
But I have heard that there were major irrigation networks built based around the iori river.

But I'm not sure where it was and doubt it covered Qiziki.
there is lushness in Kiziki too but mostly around Tsiv-Gombori as well. also many of Kizikian settlements are on Tsiv-Gombori, unlike Inner and outer Kakheti, wher only location in those hills is Cheremi in Gurjaani.

I don't know about that, probably mostly affected outer Kakheti rather than Kiziki.
 
Who are the Tusheti and the Gerakh and Bezhta? Do you propose adding this to the map? If so what locations will they occupy?
Tusheti in not people, it's one of Georgian locations, sub group of Georgians living there are called Tushs. -eti suffix is same as -ia in most languages, for example, Serb-ia in English is Serb-eti in Georgian. Tusheti is already on the Tinto map, it's called "Omalo". I propose reading my long-ahh critique of East Georgia that I've posted above where I'm talking about the issue.

About Gerukh and Bezhta. Gerukh are probably 500 people max even today. The if they add Gerukh location it would be smaller than San Marino. About Bezhta, I don't know honestly depends on what developers want, there are about 50 peoples living in Dagestan I don't think they would wanna add so many little nations there.
 
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A wrinkle in the religious setup for Zabulistan:
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So we have a town somewhere near Bost called Hezarpez that's ruled by not-Muslims, and the "mountains south of Qandahar" happen to house a tribe that is described as "infidels".

What religion do they have? No idea! Buddhist, possibly, given the history of the region?

Also @SuperLexxe as a consequence of the above, the Mihrabanids should hold Kalat. Can't siege what you already own, after all, so if Timur is sieging Kalat, he can't already own it.
 
@SuperLexxe actually no, Kalat doesn't belong to the Mihrabanids. Look at the footnote: "A town in the kingdom of Coran", which if you use modern English (this excerpt is from a 300-year-old translation of a 600-year-old book), would be Kharan.

So... Kalat, the whole area of Kharan, Nushki and Mastung should all belong to some sort of state of Kharan? That doesn't seem unreasonable; the Mihrabanids didn't have that much authority outside of their usual holdings around Zaranj.
 
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Also worth noting that I cannot actually guarantee that the "Kingdom of Kharan" is a coherent polity; I don't even know if the footnote bringing it up is from the English translator or the French translator (for context, this book is an English translation of a French translation of a 600-year-old book).

It could just be using "Kingdom" to describe a region. Then again, it also describes the "Kingdom of Makran" being invaded around this time (not even by Timur; he sends someone else to go do it) so it's entirely reasonable for this "Kingdom of Kharan" to get basically no mention of who ruled it or whatever else just as Makran does.

For context, it's this book. The fact that the translations themselves are also so damn old makes them historical documents in themselves.
 
I made a large reply here that seems to have vanished into thin air. Is it the links? Good thing I back up most of my stuff into the cloud. I'll break it up into smaller replies with fewer links and see what happens.

Why do you insist on Carpathia while Caucasia, which has had far greater usage in the English language, is nowhere to be seen? Oh, and the North Caucasus in the Northern Caucasus? Come on.

I see you've chosen to divide the Georgians on the basis of language, and I strongly believe the linguistic approach is misguided both here and in a lot of other cases. I think there are 2 valid approaches to the Georgian question: (1) a division between Western and Eastern Georgian, based on the historical division between Colchis/Lazica/greater Abkhazia and Iberia, respectively, and (2) a division meant to reflect the traditional subgroups.


Obviously those are too many, so besides the Svan, Laz and Mingrelian already on the map, I'd divide (linguistic) Georgian into Kakhetian, Meskhetian, Gurian, Kartlian, Adjarian, Imeretian, and Pkhoveli (Pshavian and Khevsurian). Anyone more knowledgeable than me about the Georgian people is free to suggest ways to simplify that further.
 
The Khorezmian culture should be renamed to Chagatai. The Tajik should be renamed to Sart, since Tajik at this point seems to have been a term for Persian-speakers in general.

The Circassian culture should maybe be called Adyghe, not because I find Circassian objectionable but because it might be an anachronism - I'd be happy to stand corrected on this. And unless the situation was different in the 14th century from what it was in the 19th century (which is possible, given the actions of Tamerlane and Inal the Great), the Circassians/Adyghe should extend in the east far enough to be neighbors of the Alans and maybe the Nakh. Also, does it make sense to represent them as a country, as opposed to an SoP?

The Nakh culture should be split into the Nakhchoy (Chechen) and Ghalghai (Ingush) - again, I have nothing against exonyms, but I'm pretty sure those didn't exist yet. On the other hand, the Karachay and Balkar cultures should be joined into one, called Taulu.


I don't know if there were enough Udi left even back then to be worth representing as a culture, but if there were, as the sole remnant of Caucasian Albania, it would be nice to have them.

Qakh should probably have a Georgian minority, if not actually a majority.

The Ormur seem to me, from a safe distance, to function like a Pashtun tribe. They should probably be absorbed into the Afghan culture.

The Nakh minority in Shatili is presumably meant to represent the Kist and Bats people, who I don't believe had moved in yet.

The Caspian Sea should be the Khazar Sea. What's going on with the Aral Sea?

(Edited to clarify link.)
 
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You need to create another mountain pass in the Caucasus, between Rutul and either Qakh or Balakan, to allow for the possibility of some Tsakhurs (which on your map are counted as part of the Lezgins) and Avars settling south of the mountains, and also the Lekianoba.


As Sulaymaniyah was established in 1784.

Īlām should be Deh Bala.

Gorgan and Astarabad are just different names for the same city - why are they different locations on the map? Same for Qobustan and Maraza.

Bingöl (both the location and the country) should be Çewlik.

Sahrazur should be Shahrazur. Şehrezûr should be Ardalan.
 
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