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Tinto Maps #2 - 17th of May 2024 - Iberia

Hello everybody, and welcome to the second post of Tinto Maps! We’re really pleased about the great reception that the first one had last week, and also about the great feedback that we received. Just so you know, we have more than 70 action points from it that we will be implementing soon in the game.

Today we will be unveiling the map of Iberia in this super-secret project! So let’s start showing maps without further ado:

Countries:
Countries.jpg

The situation in 1337 shows a strong Crown of Castile under the rule of Alfonso XI, who has overcome the problems of his troublesome minority. To the east, we have the Crown of Aragon (it’s named that way, even if it currently doesn’t appear like that on the map), which is fighting for hegemony over the Mediterranean. An offspring of it is the Kingdom of Mallorca, ruled by a cadet branch of Aragon since half a century ago, that also has a couple of northern possessions centered on Perpignan and Montpellier. To the north, the Kingdom of Navarra is ruled by a French dynasty, its titular queen Jeanne, a member of the Capetian dynasty, being married to Philippe, Lord of Évreux. To the west, Portugal has a tense relationship with Castile, with a war being fought during 1336. To the south, the Nasrid dynasty holds power in Granada, backed by the Marinids of Morocco, who have a foothold in the peninsula centered around Algeciras and Ronda. And yes, Andorra is a starting country.

Locations:
Locations.jpg

Note: We are aware that there are some locations that could be added here and there, as this was one of the first maps that we created, and we weren’t completely sure about the location density we would like to have in the game. Some examples of possible locations that we’d like to add during a review would be Alicante, Tarifa, Alcobaça, Tordesillas, Monzón, or Montblanc. Also, you might notice that Zaragoza is named 'Saragossa'; this is not final, it's because we're using it as our testing location for the dynamic location naming system, as it has different names in Spanish (Zaragoza), Catalan (Saragossa), English (Saragossa), French (Saragosse), or Arabic (Saraqusṭa).

Provinces:
Provinces.jpg

Although it looks a bit like the modern provincial borders, take into account that those are based on the provincial reform of Francisco Javier de Burgos, which were also inspired by the cities/provinces that were accountable for the ‘Servicio de Millones’ during the reign of Philip II. Also, please, don't focus on the province names, the language inconsistency is because we were also using them as a testing ground.

Terrain:
Climate.jpg

Topograhpy.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

Iberia has one of the most complex terrain feature distributions in the entire world. We've also discussed this week that we're not very happy about the Vegetation distribution, which we'll be reworking, so feedback on this topic is especially very well received.

Cultures:
Cultures.jpg

Quite standard cultural distribution here, based on the different languages of Iberia (Asturleonese was still a language back in that time, although close to being opaqued by Castilian, after one century of joint ruling). The Andalusi represent not only the Muslim inhabitants of Granada and the Strait of Gibraltar but also the Mudéjar communities spread throughout much of the territory.

Religions:
Religion.jpg

The Sunni populations present here match the Andalusi pops of the previous map. Although it’s not shown in the map mode, there’s another important religious community in Iberia, the Sephardic Jews, who inhabit several cities and towns.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.jpg

This is also a map mode that we'll be revisiting next week, and feedback is also very welcomed. A curiosity: for the first time in a Paradox GSG, there is the Mercury resource in Almadén.

Markets:
Markets.jpg

This is the current distribution of markets, please take into account that it is based on the current gameplay status of the system and that it won’t necessarily be its final status. We tested in previous iterations having market centers in Lisbon and Burgos, but they weren’t working as we wanted; thus why we only have market centers in Sevilla and Barcelona. As the markets are dynamic, it might be possible to create new market centers, so a Portugal player might want to create a new market in Lisbon after some years (although having access to the market of Sevilla is juicy if you get enough merchant capacity on it).

Pops:
Pops.jpg


And that’s all for today! Next week we will be traveling to France! See you then!
 
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I did not claim that romance languages coexisting during arab rule matched innovations of the later evolved language. But actually, those innovations you refer had their birthplace later at Valencia, specifically at la safor. Revealing the power of Valencian culture during those times.
Sure but what is the actuall proof?
Does the language seen in the 8th century in the region actually exclude the Occitan origin theory? If so what exact feature suggest that?

Let's be precise and please let's also use actual sources. We are not peer reviewing each other's research, we are ultimately relying on the expertise of other people and in this game of phone it would be useful to know who you got your information from.
 
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Do you plan to have a mechanic for changing goods in specific provinces meeting certain requirements?

i.e.

- Have grasslands that produce sturdy grains change to horses?
- Prospecting in mountainous terrain to find precious metal ores?

Thanks for the community reach out! <3
 
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Do you plan to have a mechanic for changing goods in specific provinces meeting certain requirements?

i.e.

- Have grasslands that produce sturdy grains change to horses?
- Prospecting in mountainous terrain to find precious metal ores?

Thanks for the community reach out! <3
Actually having a geological subgame in which you need to discover ore deposits before developing a mine (with some investing in surveying and a Success/failure rate) would be interesting.

EU IV has a depletion rate for gold deposits, modelling something like that for every mine would be interesting. You may need some investing to keep production rates and you can also need to balance production vs reserves.

It would work better with mines as building rather than RGO, I'm afraid. Otherwise lack of survey/depletion etc may cause loops from and back to a fallback raw material per location.
 
in eu4 1/5 of hispania is andulusian and we see its not? i dont understand
Andalusi here is the Arab speaking Muslim culture of Iberia, Andalusian is just a regional culture within the Christian Romance speaking population.
Granada should have never shared a culture with the Christians of Andalusiq
 
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IIRC, I think the base work we used was 'Las comunidades mudéjares de la Corona de Aragón en el siglo XV: la población', by Mª Teresa Ferrer Mallol, and from there, we used the different fiscal sources available for the Crown of Aragon (which, TBH, is great, and much, much better than the extanct data for the Crown of Castile). One that I specifically remember using was some works and sources for the Kingdom of Valencia that started from de 'Llibre del Repartiment'; initially, there were far more Muslims in L'Horta de Valencia, but there was a slow process by which they were slow 'relocated' by Christian lords and peasants that bought these very productive lands, so they had to resettle in the less productive and populated lands inside the Kingdom.

Thank you for your answer. Mª Teresa Ferrer Mallol was a great historian, and what she said does not differ too much from other historians. Most of these researches share similar sources, especially the 1491-1497 fogatges. These were taxes each family had to pay, and the closest thing to a census we have.

It is a well known fact that Valencia had a notable Muslim population, and there is extensive data in this regard, both from fogatges, resettlement documents, the Morisco expulsion, and more. I understand the approach, adding a Muslim minority almost everywhere if you divide the territory in a non-homogeneous way, but some smaller areas were actually almost 100% Muslim (and even Arabic-speaking).

I'm especially surprised about Catalonia, because it doesn't fit with the documentation nor what I was taught. I have read 'Las comunidades mudéjares de la Corona de Aragón en el siglo XV: la población' before this reply, and Teresa Ferrer did not speak of Muslims near Balaguer or Tarragona. They do not appear in any fogatge, and I have never found any source that talks about them, In fact, she says that the population of Muslims in Catalonia was much smaller than in Valencia and Aragon. The following chart can be found in several books and articles, including pages 36-39 of “Las comunidades mudéjares de la Corona de Aragón en el siglo XV: la población”.

"There were Muslim 788 households in Catalonia, 1.5% of the total. Their distribution was:
Lleida: 22 (2.77%)
Seròs: 93 (72.10%)
Aitona: 105 (72.41%)
Flix: 31 (29.32%)
Garcia: 39 (29.77%)
Vinebre: 21 (55.26%)
Móra: 51 (28.02%)
Vilanova de Móra: 17 (100%)
Tivissa: 28 (28.28%)
Riba-Roja: 31 (100%)
Ascó: 135 (82.31%)
Benissanet: 47 (100%)
Miravet: 87 96.62)
Benifallet: 27 (49.09%)
Tivenys: 6 (46.15%)
Xerta: 1 (1.53%)
Tortosa: 48 (4.89%)"

None of these villages is in the areas of Balaguer and Tarragona in the map, which has Muslim shades in the map.

As for Aragon, the Muslim population in Aragon was more extensive and widespread, yet less well-documented (some were missing, meaning it could be larger than what their forgatge implies). They found people who could be clearly classified as Muslims in 10 of the 12 sobrecollidas of Aragón (administrative regions) in the 1495 fogatge. The only areas without Muslims would be the northernmost ones.

Among other towns, there were 7.5% of Muslims in Alcañiz, 9.8% in Teruel, 11.6% in Daroca, 48.9% in Belchite, 35.3% in Albarrancin (all of them are shown as homogeneous Christian towns in the Tinto map). This is all the 1495 fogatge, and Ferrer's quote it as well. She also spoke about a a permission to build a new mosque in 1427 in Albarrancin or how there was an emigration of Muslims from Teruel in the early 15th century (which would mean the 14th century Muslim population was higher than in the 1495 fogatge). All these locations are shown as homogeneous Christian territories in the map.

So I don't understand why the map ignores those Muslims from some areas of Aragon, while adding Muslims in territories of Catalonia that didn't have them.
 
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I have a doubt: if a location is big in sheep farming, how do you choose between wool and livestock? I mean wool derives from livestock, why is it even considered a raw good?
 
I have a doubt: if a location is big in sheep farming, how do you choose between wool and livestock? I mean wool derives from livestock, why is it even considered a raw good?
I think livestock means like cows or buffalo or pig, while wool means sheep or goat or llama.

Both are classified as foods, anyway
 
I am paging my way through "An Economic History of Spain" by Jaime Vicens Vives to see if I can find anything useful.

Here are some population statistics:

In 1348, Catalonia had about 450k inhabitants, Valencia and Aragon had 200k (each), and Majorca had 50k.
Of these, Jews numbered 25k in Catalonia, 20k in Aragon, 10k in Valencia, and 5k in Majorca. In Barcelona, Jews were 1/7 of the population.
Mudejares (unconverted Muslims) were 3% of the population in Catalonia, 35% in Aragon, and 2/3 in Valencia.
 
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The nature of climate modeling is that slight variations in input data can lead to completely different categorizations - if you look at the caption of your source, it is projecting forward throughout the 21st century, whereas my source was from historical 20th-century data. I have no doubt that a lot of France will become Cfa in the future, but it has not historically been.

What would be cool is if Paradox incorporated dynamic climate, since quite a lot of the politics of early modern Europe were a direct consequence of the cooling climate from the Medieval Warm Period to the Little Ice Age. One could imagine productivity of provinces being linked to climate, with Mediterranean & Oceanic climates losing productivity as they become Continental.
It says "1901-2099" but I fully agree on the dynamic climate. That's probably EU6 talk though, since I sadly think it's a bit too complex for them atm. I mean just think about the sheer amount of man hours, researching climate data for each individual province, changing resources and terrain dynamically and adding flavour on top of all that?
 
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About the valencian/catalan debate in the thread.

I didn't take part in the discussion, but I want to make clear something.

Valencian and Catalan are the same language.

That doesn't mean that valencians and catalans are the same realm nor nationality. Just like Argentinians are not Castillians but they speak the same language.

All valencian literates (in this case speaking of the Renaixença) knew they were the same language, but they called it valencian, cause thats what people call it, however when they wanted to refer to the whole language they, sistematically, decided to use the term llemosí, because at the time they thought the language emerged from Llemotges. They used this term because they feared that using the term català would spark confrontation between valencians and catalans.

What nowadays is the principal linguistical cesesionist group, Lo Rat Penat, funded at the late 1800s, became linguistically in the 1980s, before that it was the front of the valencianist moviment, recognised the Unitat de la Llengua and taught in the Rules of Castelló (made in 1930). You can see tons of maps made by Lo Rat Penat that exhibit valencian language as the same that is spoken in catalonia, the balearic islands, the pitiüses islands, the franja d'aragó, north catalonia, the alguer, andorra and el carxe.


The Països Catalans were made as a socio-linguistic idea in 1880, if it was later moved into politics by Fuster, however that doesn't invadilate the socio-linguistic background of it, you suport the political idea or not, it's irrelevant cause that is not the matter of the conversation.

Current politics dont change 800 years of history like that.

Could you link to anything written in valencian language prior to the Conquista by Jaume I?

However, you are right that Valencian culture is not Catalan culture or the opposite. If the map should separate the cultures... that's another story, and if it is done there should a way to make clear the languages are the same, and also be done with andalusian, per exemple. This map is based solely on linguistic borders, so its not necessary (believe me, as a valencian it leaves me a bad taste that we cant have both a linguistic and a cultural map where this things can be recognized, I would prefer valencian as culture and català as language (què és sinònim de valencià, mallorquí i alguerés) but things are like that, i guess, Im already happy that they for the most part respected the borders of the aragonese language)

I hope that this finalizes the discussion, as this thread is dedicated to discuss the project, make suggestions and give feedback, not to discuss the politics of the 1980s.
 
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It might have already been answered in a previous diary but let's say that I want to re-create the historical English and eventually British Empire, which would entail capturing Gibraltar which is apparently a location rather than a province now.... could I specifically demand a location rather than a province in a peace?
 
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It might have already been answered in a previous diary but let's say that I want to re-create the historical English and eventually British Empire, which would entail capturing Gibraltar which is apparently a location rather than a province now.... could I specifically demand a location rather than a province in a peace?

Of course not. Gibraltar is Spanish and it will always be, return it already you...

On a more serious note: yes, Johan already confirmed you can conquer individual locations.
 
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It might have already been answered in a previous diary but let's say that I want to re-create the historical English and eventually British Empire, which would entail capturing Gibraltar which is apparently a location rather than a province now.... could I specifically demand a location rather than a province in a peace?
Yes, you could.
 
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About the valencian/catalan debate in the thread.

No one said those are different languages, or tryed to secessionate them somewhat.

I just showed the true facts, that the valencian culture was really outstanding, so much that consacrated XV century authors of the language openly refered to their valencian culture identity, even with their writings. Can't be more specific than that to praise his own culture.

But so many people got offended so quickly when some valencian person just reclaim his own history, wich is great and don't deserve to be portrayed as a kind of historical puppet, specially when reality is far from that.
 
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No one said those are different languages, or tryed to secessionate them somewhat.

I just showed the true facts, that the valencian culture was really outstanding, so much that consacrated XV century authors of the language openly refered to their valencian culture identity, even with their writings. Can't be more specific than that to praise his own culture.

But so many people got offended so quickly when some valencian person just reclaim his own history, wich is great and don't deserve to be portrayed as a kind of historical puppet, specially when reality is far from that.
It's a manufactured debate by Valencians that don't speak Catalan. All you need to see is the opinion polls on this of Valencians who think Valencian is separate between those that speak the language fluently and those that don't. It is a certain subsect of the population that's obsessed with this idea

It's a subgroup of Catalan that existed as people moved south, and as Valencia, that is, the city, became a economic capital of Aragon (along with Barcelona), it developed a unique urban culture as well. One that's certainly distinct, but not separate of Catalan culture overall. Faro and Porto in Portugal are different but ultimately both are Portuguese. Same thing. Anyway, as a language, Catalan even spread as far south as Murcia. This debate does not matter.

 
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The real deal is how to name the common language, obviusly catalans give it for granted that should be catalan, just because.

But at the time, the language was just a western mediterranean form of romance, and it was spoken outside iberia (occitania), and inside islamic controlled areas by the native hispanic populations, as far as we know the language didn't had an institutionalized name, it was a common language all allong, so catalans doesn't have the right to name it centuries later. Tho some of them just pushed really hard on that and their "catalan" culture for so many years on their agenda to seceed from spain.

And enough of this offtopic.
 
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