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Tinto Maps #22 - 11th of October 2024 - Mongolia, Manchuria and Eastern Siberia

Hello and welcome another week to the amazing world of Tinto Maps. This week we are covering a very wide area, as we will take a look at Mongolia, Manchuria and all Eastern Siberia. So, without much further ado, let’s get started.

Countries
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Here, clearly, the Yuán Dynasty of China controls much of the territory, while all of the Siberian expanses are “open” to colonization. Considering Manchuria, the Jurchen tribes posed a tricky question, as some of them were more settled and Chinese-influenced while others were more nomadic and pastoralist, and some were in between. Thus, we decided to represent the more settled tribes that would later confederate into the Manchu as separate countries vassals of Yuán, while there is also Jurchen population inside the borders of Yuán itself and the most nomadic of them represented as Society of Pops.

Societies of Pops
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And speaking of that, most of them are obviously concentrated in Manchuria and around the borders of the countries and coasts, while the more inhospitable places further into Siberia and Kamchatka are more sparsely populated and thus less organized.

Dynasties
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Nothing that wasn’t expected here, Borjigin dynasty keeps dominating another week. Concerning the Jurchen, currently none of them have scripted dynasties assigned and are generated instead.

Locations
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Provinces
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Areas
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Terrain
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The drier parts of the Gobi Desert in the Mongolian Plateau give way to the steppes and grasslands of Manchuria, while further into Siberia it gets dominated by mountains, hills, forests, and as one would expect from Siberia, cold.

Development
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Not much development in these parts either, and as I mentioned in last week’s Tinto Maps, the sudden change in development when entering China will have to be reviewed, as it’s currently too strong.

Natural Harbors
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Cultures
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Quite a varied cultural landscape, as these areas are populated by many different peoples, sometimes expanding through a wide area while others are more localized. On the other hand, the Mongolian Plateau is very much dominated by Mongolian culture.

Religions
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Very diverse religion distribution too, with Tengri, Shamanism, and local variations of it with Tungustic Shamanism (brown), Yukaghir Shamanism (light blue) and Chukchee Shamanism (purple). I have to say that we are currently going through a review of all the religions of the world defined as either “Animism” or “Shamanism”, so it is possible that there are some changes in this distribution in the future.

Raw Materials
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Very marked distribution of resources, with Mongolia and Manchuria rich in livestock and horses (as one would expect from the horse lords) while the forests of Siberia are full of fur and wild game and the northern coasts are a big source of ivory (from the world-famous arctic elephant herds, of course). However, the mountainous areas also include precious metals like gold and silver, so their colonization may thus prove quite beneficial. Another thing of note is that fish can be found abundantly not only along the coasts but also along the major rivers crossing Siberia.

Markets
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First of all, we have reverted back to the previous way of visualizing markets, as it was clear that the change we did to it was not in the good direction. We will keep testing and trying things, so this will probably not be the final view of it, but for now we reverted back to this version as we think it would be clearer to present. Having said that, these are areas with not much market presence, with the markets of Karakorum and Ilan Hala being the main ones, and the Chinese markets encroaching on the southern parts. Siberia doesn’t have any market of its own, so all of it has currently no access.

Population
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The only countries we have population to show here are the Jurchen ones, with the mighty Yuán ever encroaching on them. Concerning the populations of the locations, one thing I have to mention is that you will see many of them with the value of 150, that is the general default value that we used for the less populated areas of all eastern Siberia, where population estimates of the period don’t allow for much fine tuning. It is probably something that we will adjust.

And that is it for this week. Next week, after having been teasing it and slithering around its edges for a while now, it will be finally time to face the dragon, as we will showcase the entirety of China. Hope to see you all there, and as always very open (and grateful) to all your feedback.
 
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Great job! I ahve few questions:

-Is there any "content" for Yuan if they lose control of the imperial throne and/or the Chinese core lands? Like going back to the nomadic life on the steppes of Mongolia as they did historically.

-Wouldn't it far better to call it Great Yuan instead of Yuan dynasty? They are both correct yes but the word dynasty could be applied to a lot of countries in the game(especially muslim ones) while putting the word great to whatever tag obtains the mandate would feel more unique(since the only tag that has great in its name is Great Britain and maybe Great Perm)
 
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The Daur People are the descendants of the Khitan and thus somewhat affiliated with the Liao.

Its 212 years apart but perfectly feasible that it would be in memeory so maybe give them the ability to restore the liao?

From Wiki

Genetically, the Daurs are descendants of the Khitan, as recent DNA analyses have proven.[5] In the Qianlong Emperor's "钦定《辽金元三史语解》" (Imperially commissioned Translations of the History of Liao, History of Jin and History of Yuan) he retranslates "大贺", a Khitan clan described in the History of Liao, as "达呼尔". That is the earliest theory that claims Daurs are descendants of Khitans.
 
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By the way, what's up with some of these locations in Northern Siberia having 1500-3500 population? It has been estimated that a single hunter-gatherer in my home region of Eastern Finland required an area of around 25-100 square kilometers for hunting and fishing so these numbers feel too high, considering that the conditions are not any more hospitable here.

1728652574997.png
 
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SuperLexxe said:
​

Are there any plans to breakdown the Mongol and Oirat cultures into their subgroups, in similar granular fashion as to what has been done for various other cultures? Plain “Mongolian” to blanket the different Mongol groups doesn’t feel that great That’d be like assigning all the Turkic groups as one single “Turkish” culture.

The Mongols have many tribes/subgroups as described in the below image, and each of them have their own subgroups:


View attachment 1200504


At this time the Oirats (who themselves were a subgroup of the Mongols) would have mainly the: Choros, Torghut, Dörbet, Olots and Khoid. There would also have been the more minor Altai Uriankhai, Baatud, Bayads, Chantuu, Khoshut and Kalmyks(?).
​

Determining the farther out individual Mongol tribes can certainly be difficult, as many of the later tümens (military/civic units of 10,000 fighting men + their families) that spread across the Mongol empire were mostly unrelated. Being part of the same tümen as your tribe/clan was a special privilege.

In situations where a certain group of Mongols cannot be determined, they could be assigned as Khalkha, the largest group, rather than a broad “Mongolian”, which is the case currently.

I think this would add nice flavour, and we can mostly determine which Mongol tribes migrated where based the prominent families of each successor state (the ruling Borjigins often had powerful in-law tribes to intermarry with).
​

The Middle East:
In the Persia thread (here), I was able to find most of the prominent Mongol tribes that inhabited the Ilkhanate and roughly where in the empire, such as: the Jalayirs, Suldus, Khorchins(?), Khongirads, Bayads, Keraites, Sunuds and two different groups of Oirats (which I couldn’t break down). The Moghols in Afghanistan/Pakistan also, and arguably the Hazaras as well, likely of the Besüd.

Anatolia and Khorasan had several makeshift, rather than traditional tribes, amalgamated from the various Mongol tribes that shared the same tümens or minggans. These makeshift tribes could very well be assigned as Khalkha.


View attachment 1200506


The Golden Horde:
I am less knowledgeable about the Mongols that might’ve inhabited the Golden Horde. I am told that they were relatively few compared to the other Mongol successor states, due to some bias on part of the Great Khans. However, you could probably find ruling class Mongol tribes inhabiting the personal domain of the Khan of the Golden Horde.


Central Asia:
In Chagatai, we know of the other groups of Jalayirs, Suldus and the minor tribe of Dughlats. We can also assume that the ruling Chagatayid Borjigins had their share of the more matrilineal tribes of Khongirads and Keraites, with whom they shared kinship through many generations of marriages. There were also the Qara’unas, Negüderi, Arlat, Apardi and Yasa’uri, but they fall into the makeshift tribe category, and probably don’t count as their own cultures in this context.

The Barlas tribe, which Timur would be born into, was one of these makeshift tribes. However, the commander they were named after, Barlas, was related to the Borjigins through a shared ancestor, Bodonchar Khan.
​

Mongolia:
And of course, the heartlands of the Mongols would have the whole plethora of Mongol tribes we have come to know of.
​

China:
China would have the Dongxiang people in Gansu and Ningxia. While they are made up of several Central Asian peoples, they speak a Mongolic language. Other tribes also spread across China, before their expulsion by the Chinese following the Red Turban Rebellion (many of the Mongols in China would also become employed by the Ming dynasty).
​
Click to expand...
We discussed internally about it, and we decided that the tribal distribution would be more on an "administrative" level than on a "cultural" one. Meaning that yes, they would be different tribes answering to different chiefs, but they would all have the same cultural background to be classified under the same Mongolian culture in the game. The only main exception we did with this was with the Oirats, because they were the ones that broke further away. So those divisions you mention would be better represented as tags than as cultures in our opinion. This also gives cultural cohesion to the Golden Horde, Chagatai, and Yuan.
 
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Roger Corominas said:
The only countries we have population to show here are the Jurchen ones, with the mighty Yuán ever encroaching on them. Concerning the populations of the locations, one thing I have to mention is that you will see many of them with the value of 150, that is the general default value that we used for the less populated areas of all eastern Siberia, where population estimates of the period don’t allow for much fine tuning. It is probably something that we will adjust.
Click to expand...
I know a single value is good for development but when you release it, could you make ist 130+n, n in {0,1,...,40} that would make it fell way more immersive and should not destroy the balance compleatly.

And if you really care for balance dont make the probability 1/41, but use a bell curve (like: f\left(x\right)=\frac{1}{\left(1+\left(x-150\right)^{2}\right)^{\frac{1}{2}}} ) that would still make it feel why better.
Btw you only have to calculate that at the start of a new game, so it's really not a performance problem.
 
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Culture map is surprisingly accurate, the area around Baykal lake should be more mixed between Buryat/Evenk/Mongolic and Tungusic

1728653035948.png


And Kets should be more widespread
1728653270747.png


Minor nitpick but tribes over Evenk culture, like "Lalagir", "Managir", "Nanagir" etc are also Evenks. Might be wrong but it is strange that some Evenks are treated as separate cultures while other lumped under Evenk
1728653920881.png
 
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