• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Maps #22 - 11th of October 2024 - Mongolia, Manchuria and Eastern Siberia

Hello and welcome another week to the amazing world of Tinto Maps. This week we are covering a very wide area, as we will take a look at Mongolia, Manchuria and all Eastern Siberia. So, without much further ado, let’s get started.

Countries
Countries.png

Colored Wastelands.png

Countries zoom.png
Here, clearly, the Yuán Dynasty of China controls much of the territory, while all of the Siberian expanses are “open” to colonization. Considering Manchuria, the Jurchen tribes posed a tricky question, as some of them were more settled and Chinese-influenced while others were more nomadic and pastoralist, and some were in between. Thus, we decided to represent the more settled tribes that would later confederate into the Manchu as separate countries vassals of Yuán, while there is also Jurchen population inside the borders of Yuán itself and the most nomadic of them represented as Society of Pops.

Societies of Pops
Societies of Pops.png

And speaking of that, most of them are obviously concentrated in Manchuria and around the borders of the countries and coasts, while the more inhospitable places further into Siberia and Kamchatka are more sparsely populated and thus less organized.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Nothing that wasn’t expected here, Borjigin dynasty keeps dominating another week. Concerning the Jurchen, currently none of them have scripted dynasties assigned and are generated instead.

Locations
Locations.png

Locations zoom 1.png
Locations zoom 2.png
Locations zoom 3.png
Locations zoom 4.png
Locations zoom 5.png
Locations zoom 6.png
Locations zoom 7.png

Provinces
Provinces.png

Provinces zoom 1.png

Provinces zoom 2.png
Provinces zoom 3.png

Areas
Areas.png


Terrain
Topography.png

Climate.png

Vegetation.png

The drier parts of the Gobi Desert in the Mongolian Plateau give way to the steppes and grasslands of Manchuria, while further into Siberia it gets dominated by mountains, hills, forests, and as one would expect from Siberia, cold.

Development
Development.png

Not much development in these parts either, and as I mentioned in last week’s Tinto Maps, the sudden change in development when entering China will have to be reviewed, as it’s currently too strong.

Natural Harbors
Harbors.png


Cultures
Cultures.png

Cultures zoom 1.png

Cultures zoom 2.png
Cultures zoom 3.png
Quite a varied cultural landscape, as these areas are populated by many different peoples, sometimes expanding through a wide area while others are more localized. On the other hand, the Mongolian Plateau is very much dominated by Mongolian culture.

Religions
Religions.png

Very diverse religion distribution too, with Tengri, Shamanism, and local variations of it with Tungustic Shamanism (brown), Yukaghir Shamanism (light blue) and Chukchee Shamanism (purple). I have to say that we are currently going through a review of all the religions of the world defined as either “Animism” or “Shamanism”, so it is possible that there are some changes in this distribution in the future.

Raw Materials
Raw Resources.png

Raw Resources zoom 1.png
Raw Resources zoom 2.png
Raw Resources zoom 3.png
Very marked distribution of resources, with Mongolia and Manchuria rich in livestock and horses (as one would expect from the horse lords) while the forests of Siberia are full of fur and wild game and the northern coasts are a big source of ivory (from the world-famous arctic elephant herds, of course). However, the mountainous areas also include precious metals like gold and silver, so their colonization may thus prove quite beneficial. Another thing of note is that fish can be found abundantly not only along the coasts but also along the major rivers crossing Siberia.

Markets
Markets.png

First of all, we have reverted back to the previous way of visualizing markets, as it was clear that the change we did to it was not in the good direction. We will keep testing and trying things, so this will probably not be the final view of it, but for now we reverted back to this version as we think it would be clearer to present. Having said that, these are areas with not much market presence, with the markets of Karakorum and Ilan Hala being the main ones, and the Chinese markets encroaching on the southern parts. Siberia doesn’t have any market of its own, so all of it has currently no access.

Population
Population.png

Population zoom 1.png

Population zoom 2.png
Population zoom 3.png
Population zoom 4.png
Population zoom 5.png
Population zoom 6.png
The only countries we have population to show here are the Jurchen ones, with the mighty Yuán ever encroaching on them. Concerning the populations of the locations, one thing I have to mention is that you will see many of them with the value of 150, that is the general default value that we used for the less populated areas of all eastern Siberia, where population estimates of the period don’t allow for much fine tuning. It is probably something that we will adjust.

And that is it for this week. Next week, after having been teasing it and slithering around its edges for a while now, it will be finally time to face the dragon, as we will showcase the entirety of China. Hope to see you all there, and as always very open (and grateful) to all your feedback.
 
  • 151Like
  • 48Love
  • 6
  • 3
  • 2
  • 1Haha
Reactions:
Shantar location should be Nivkh culture and if controlled by Nivkh should be called Kyvrmif.

Gruzdeva, E. (2020). Nivkh toponyms in the Amur-Sakhalin region of the Russian Far East. Altai Hakpo, 30, 167–204.
 
  • 1Like
  • 1Love
  • 1
Reactions:
1. Yuan launched invasions to Sakhalin, and it managed to subjugate the tribes. How much "effective" control they had there is clearly debatable, like in many other areas of their territory, but they claimed it as belonging to themselves so we added as such, and the mechanics of the game will take care of the rest.
If I am not mistaken, the Yuan emperors also claimed the entire Mongol Empire as belonging to themselves. That doesn't mean that it should be portrayed as such. In reality, their claim to the entire Mongol Empire was only nominal. Similarly, in Sakhalin, they only had someone from the Ainu come over with tribute to their base near the Amur river every so often.

Also, regarding the Ainu, I am pretty sure that their tiny presence in Kamchatka should not be a thing in 1337. IIRC, that only happened in relatively recent times due to Soviet population transfers.
 
  • 11
Reactions:
And as shown in the picture above, the noble fiefdoms on the Mongolian steppes are not shown, Jinan, Qi, Yangzhai, Gunangning. Especially Prince of Yangzhai , as a descendant of Ögedei, he once launched a war against the Mongol Khan in 1360, but there is no tag for him? !
 
Last edited:
  • 4Like
  • 4
Reactions:
Some suggestions for a change of location
1 Fùxīn(阜新)→Tóngchāng(同昌), the former was established in 1903.
2 Yìzhōu → Yízhōu(懿州).
3 Kāichéng(開城) → Háozhu(豪州),the latter was local district that existed during the Yuan Dynasty
4 Fushun(撫順) → Guìdé(貴德),the former was established in Ming Dynasty.
5 Tieling(鐵嶺) → Yínzhōu(銀州),the former was established in 1393.
6 Kāiyuán(開元) → Xiánpíng(咸平),because Kaiyuan garrison was moved to Xianping city in 1388,it's original location was intoday's Nong 'an.
7 Nóng'ān(農安) → Kāiyuán(開元) or Húanglóng(黃龍) ,for the above reasons.
View attachment 1200589
Thanks, we will take a look at that.
 
  • 22Like
  • 2
Reactions:
From "Contact in the prehistory of the Sakha (Yakuts):Linguistic and genetic perspectives" on the spread of Even-Evenki and Sakha/Yakuts

A different view holds that the ancestors of the Tungus-Manchu peoplesoriginated in Manchuria, since in this region all the different branches of theTungusic language family are attested (Janhunen 1996: 169). Janhunen suggests amedieval origin of the Northern Tungusic groups on the Middle Amur, who mighthave dispersed from there under pressure from immigrating Mongolic groups (thelater Dagur). Based on Evenki dialectal features (such as the retention of archaicfeatures, or the number of Mongolic lexical copies) Janhunen suggests that thenorthern expansion of the Evenks and 'vens (and related Negidals and Solon) tookplace in two waves, an outer and an inner wave. The outer wave led to the formation of the Cisbaikalian Evenks and the 'vens, while the inner wave resulted in theTransbaikalian Evenks (Janhunen 1996: 169f). Tugolukov (1980) locates theancestors of the Tungus (presumably implying both Evenks and 'vens) between theupper reaches of the Verxnjaja Angara and Olëkma rivers (i.e. in a morenorthwesterly location than Janhunen), where a group of reindeer-herders calledUvan’ are mentioned in chronicles of the 5th to 7th century AD (Tugolukov 1980:157). The further expansion of the ancestors of the Evenks and 'vens to the north isassumed to have taken place fairly late, in the 12th or 13th century AD (Tugolukov1980: 168; Janhunen 1996: 171). The Northern Tungusic groups spread over theircurrent area of settlement in three waves; in the first wave they settled on the middlereaches of the Lena and the Aldan river before the arrival of the Sakha ancestors inthe 13th century; in the second wave they spread down the Lena and up the Aldanunder pressure of the immigrating pastoralist Turkic-speaking groups, and lastly theexpansion of the Sakha in the 17th and 18th century further displaced Tungusic tribesto peripheral areas (Vasilevig 1969: 17; Tugolukov 1980: 168).

Based on this part I question how much of the cultures representing Siberian Tungusic and Siberian Turkic people should be split.
 
  • 1
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I noticed the yupighit on the corners of chuckchi peninsula and on attu island dont seem to have a religion, as it is a white color, is this a lack of a religion or is it just too small to see? If it is the latter, could you guys please zoom in so we can see it?
 
  • 3Like
Reactions:
Consider the size of Siberia, there is a lot of opportunities for colonization.
 


Then I would definitely implore for this to be added into the game. Would add nice flavor for further action and going ons in Mongolia after the fall of Yuan, a reunification of Mongolia, and an Oirat playthrough via forming the confederation.


Seconding this. I frankly hadn't even considered the possiblity that there -wouldn't- be content for that, it's so bizarre to imagine. Like, in current PC would Ming conquer China proper and then Yuan just sort of sticks around for eternity/until conquered? That'd be so strange.
The setting of the Manchuria region is too arbitrary. A bunch of tribes that only appeared in the late 16th century and early 17th century were divided out near the Yalu River, while other large areas were directly taken over by the Mongols. I felt like I was watching a joke from hell.
Even if you only refer to Wikipedia, you should know that the Mongols established at least five Wanhu (10,000 households) in Manchuria as autonomous organizations for local people.
Yuan_Provinces.png

Taowen桃溫
Huligai胡里改
Woduolian斡朵憐
Wotuolin脱斡怜
Beikujaing孛苦江
Zhengdong征東
Buyulu捕裕路
Shibaochi失寶赤
Ojo-Kremi兀者吉烈迷
Your tone is a bit harsh but I do agree that it'd probably be best to look at how the area was actually organized. Though I can sympathize with Tinto for wanting to have a lot playable Jurchen in the area.

I will also second the want for independent Fiefs in the Yuan. Should definitely be a thing, not having Fiefs would be a shame.
 
  • 8
  • 3Like
Reactions:
I have a question not related to this specific tinto maps but to all of them and to the map design. Why aren't rivers act like sea tiles? Especially important rivers like the rhine in europe, the yellow river in china, or the dnieper which is pretty wide at certain areas, could be very fun to play with this sea tiles rivers.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I wonder what colors the Ming Dynasty would use. I highly recommend Red because Zhu朱 is the surname of the emperor of the Ming Dynasty, Zhu also means Red in Chinese. and the Red color in the Five Colored Flag of the Beiyang Government represents the Han nationality. More importantly, Red represents joy, auspiciousness, enthusiasm, and warmth to the Han people. Red is an important traditional color in Chinese culture. It represents prosperity and happiness and is often used in festivals and celebrations. During the Spring Festival, every household will hang Red lanterns and post Spring Festival couplets to create a festive atmosphere. Red is also related to many important cultural elements of the Han nationality, such as red wedding dresses and red envelopes, which are an integral part of Han culture.
 
  • 14Like
  • 3Love
  • 1
Reactions: