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Tinto Maps #22 - 11th of October 2024 - Mongolia, Manchuria and Eastern Siberia

Hello and welcome another week to the amazing world of Tinto Maps. This week we are covering a very wide area, as we will take a look at Mongolia, Manchuria and all Eastern Siberia. So, without much further ado, let’s get started.

Countries
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Here, clearly, the Yuán Dynasty of China controls much of the territory, while all of the Siberian expanses are “open” to colonization. Considering Manchuria, the Jurchen tribes posed a tricky question, as some of them were more settled and Chinese-influenced while others were more nomadic and pastoralist, and some were in between. Thus, we decided to represent the more settled tribes that would later confederate into the Manchu as separate countries vassals of Yuán, while there is also Jurchen population inside the borders of Yuán itself and the most nomadic of them represented as Society of Pops.

Societies of Pops
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And speaking of that, most of them are obviously concentrated in Manchuria and around the borders of the countries and coasts, while the more inhospitable places further into Siberia and Kamchatka are more sparsely populated and thus less organized.

Dynasties
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Nothing that wasn’t expected here, Borjigin dynasty keeps dominating another week. Concerning the Jurchen, currently none of them have scripted dynasties assigned and are generated instead.

Locations
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Provinces
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Areas
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Terrain
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The drier parts of the Gobi Desert in the Mongolian Plateau give way to the steppes and grasslands of Manchuria, while further into Siberia it gets dominated by mountains, hills, forests, and as one would expect from Siberia, cold.

Development
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Not much development in these parts either, and as I mentioned in last week’s Tinto Maps, the sudden change in development when entering China will have to be reviewed, as it’s currently too strong.

Natural Harbors
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Cultures
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Quite a varied cultural landscape, as these areas are populated by many different peoples, sometimes expanding through a wide area while others are more localized. On the other hand, the Mongolian Plateau is very much dominated by Mongolian culture.

Religions
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Very diverse religion distribution too, with Tengri, Shamanism, and local variations of it with Tungustic Shamanism (brown), Yukaghir Shamanism (light blue) and Chukchee Shamanism (purple). I have to say that we are currently going through a review of all the religions of the world defined as either “Animism” or “Shamanism”, so it is possible that there are some changes in this distribution in the future.

Raw Materials
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Very marked distribution of resources, with Mongolia and Manchuria rich in livestock and horses (as one would expect from the horse lords) while the forests of Siberia are full of fur and wild game and the northern coasts are a big source of ivory (from the world-famous arctic elephant herds, of course). However, the mountainous areas also include precious metals like gold and silver, so their colonization may thus prove quite beneficial. Another thing of note is that fish can be found abundantly not only along the coasts but also along the major rivers crossing Siberia.

Markets
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First of all, we have reverted back to the previous way of visualizing markets, as it was clear that the change we did to it was not in the good direction. We will keep testing and trying things, so this will probably not be the final view of it, but for now we reverted back to this version as we think it would be clearer to present. Having said that, these are areas with not much market presence, with the markets of Karakorum and Ilan Hala being the main ones, and the Chinese markets encroaching on the southern parts. Siberia doesn’t have any market of its own, so all of it has currently no access.

Population
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The only countries we have population to show here are the Jurchen ones, with the mighty Yuán ever encroaching on them. Concerning the populations of the locations, one thing I have to mention is that you will see many of them with the value of 150, that is the general default value that we used for the less populated areas of all eastern Siberia, where population estimates of the period don’t allow for much fine tuning. It is probably something that we will adjust.

And that is it for this week. Next week, after having been teasing it and slithering around its edges for a while now, it will be finally time to face the dragon, as we will showcase the entirety of China. Hope to see you all there, and as always very open (and grateful) to all your feedback.
 
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I'm sorry if it's offensive. But I didn't know Tinto would have such a strange approach, making such detailed and even tags in Tibet, while Manchuria piled up so many tags next to the Yalu River, and the reason was that they were more developed. However, according to the experience of the Ming Dynasty, the development level of these Jurchens may not be much better than that of the Jurchens in the north.
This is obviously a fatal Whig view of history, presupposing the situation based on the rise of the Later Jin three hundred years later (!), which is ridiculous.
I'm pretty sure the Jurchens closer to China being more sinicized and agricultural is well attested too. Manchuria was not an open steppe country and I think having tags for them makes a lot of sense from that perspective.
 
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I'm pretty sure the Jurchens closer to China being more sinicized and agricultural is well attested too. Manchuria was not an open steppe country and I think having tags for them makes a lot of sense from that perspective.
I am not against adding tags for them, but this is not a reason to add tags only for them. If this can be used as a reason, then why do those places on the edge of Tibet also have tags? Their development level is not much higher than that of the Jurchens in Heilongjiang and Jilin, such as Golog, ngapa in Qinghai, etc.
 
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Question, do you know when the Chukchi migrated to where they live? Because from an article I'm reading it's claimed they were an offshoot of the Koryak
I'm unsure of precise times but most of what I've seen implies that they've inhabited the same area since they're the descendants of settlers who neither crossed the Bering Strait nor settled Japan (aka they're the closest relatives in mainland Asia of the Native Americans and Ainu).

I'd be curious to look at your source that says they're an offshoot of the Koryak.
 
I'm unsure of precise times but most of what I've seen implies that they've inhabited the same area since they're the descendants of settlers who neither crossed the Bering Strait nor settled Japan (aka they're the closest relatives in mainland Asia of the Native Americans and Ainu).

I'd be curious to look at your source that says they're an offshoot of the Koryak.
There has been plenty population turnover on the Chukoktan peninsula.
 
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I'm unsure of precise times but most of what I've seen implies that they've inhabited the same area since they're the descendants of settlers who neither crossed the Bering Strait nor settled Japan (aka they're the closest relatives in mainland Asia of the Native Americans and Ainu).

I'd be curious to look at your source that says they're an offshoot of the Koryak.
Uhm I'm sorry but I don't think you should randomly assume that a people is >10000 years old with no reason,lol

Anyway, from "Arctic Anthropology Vol. 9, No. 1 (1972), pp. 17-26":
1728662509068.png
 
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Why Hokkaido have nearly one-third of the locations in Manchuria in 1337 (56 locations)?

QQ20241011-232753.png

There are same numbers of locations in these two circles.

During the Meiji period (1868-1876), the population of Hokkaido only increased from 58,000 to 240,000 (data from wikipedia - Hokkaido). Prior to 1850, the population of Hokkaido was less than 50,000, and it is difficult to say that the population density was higher than the average population density of Siberia in 1337, more than 500 years ago, when it was completely indigenous. According to the current location division, even in 1868, each location in Hokkaido can only accommodate 100 people.

And the Manchurian region, during the Ming Dynasty, Liaodong belonged to Liaodong Dusi, which had a total of 25 Wei 衞 (garrisons) and 2 Zhou 州 (prefectures). Among them, the 25 Wei were inhabited by the Han ethnic group, while the 2 Zhou were inhabited by ethnic minorities.


QQ20241011-233548.jpg

Liaodong, Ming Dynasty in 1582, it's a small part of Manchuria.

The Ming Dynasty, like other Han regimes in history, often only counted the Han population and did not count the minority population when counting the population, because only the Han people were responsible for paying taxes. During the Hongwu period of the Ming Dynasty, the Jinzhou Wei had a population of 45,620 people (Liaodong Chronicles, Volume 3). It can be seen that the Liaodong 25 Wei had a Han population of about 1,140,000 during the Hongwu period of the Ming Dynasty, not including the stationed military households and their families, which mains Liaodong had a huge population about 3,000,000 (3 persons in a family). Liaodong was only a very small part of the Manchurian region notified by the Ming Dynasty. (And I am saddened to see that the current location boundary of Liaodong cannot be restored to the border that was maintained for more than 200 years in the middle and late Ming Dynasty.)

QQ20241011-233548.png

The border between the Ming Dynasty and its vassal states.

The population of Manchuria in 1900 was 17,000,000 (data from Wikipedia - Manchuria), which was 70 times the population of Hokkaido during the same period.
I don't know why there is a huge gap in location density for areas so close together,
it looks too strange.
 
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Why Hokkaido have nearly one-third of the locations in Manchuria in 1337 (56 locations)?

View attachment 1200668
There are same numbers of locations in these two circles.

During the Meiji period (1868-1876), the population of Hokkaido only increased from 58,000 to 240,000 (data from wikipedia - Hokkaido). Prior to 1850, the population of Hokkaido was less than 50,000, and it is difficult to say that the population density was higher than the average population density of Siberia in 1337, more than 500 years ago, when it was completely indigenous. According to the current location division, even in 1868, each location in Hokkaido can only accommodate 100 people.

And the Manchurian region, during the Ming Dynasty, Liaodong belonged to Liaodong Dusi, which had a total of 25 Wei 衞 (garrisons) and 2 Zhou 州 (prefectures). Among them, the 25 Wei were inhabited by the Han ethnic group, while the 2 Zhou were inhabited by ethnic minorities.


View attachment 1200673
Liaodong, Ming Dynasty in 1582, it's a small part of Manchuria.

The Ming Dynasty, like other Han regimes in history, often only counted the Han population and did not count the minority population when counting the population, because only the Han people were responsible for paying taxes. During the Hongwu period of the Ming Dynasty, the Jinzhou Wei had a population of 45,620 people (Liaodong Chronicles, Volume 3). It can be seen that the Liaodong 25 Wei had a Han population of about 1,140,000 during the Hongwu period of the Ming Dynasty, not including the stationed military households and their families, which mains Liaodong had a huge population about 3,000,000 (3 persons in a family). Liaodong was only a very small part of the Manchurian region notified by the Ming Dynasty. (And I am saddened to see that the current location boundary of Liaodong cannot be restored to the border that was maintained for more than 200 years in the middle and late Ming Dynasty.)

View attachment 1200674
The border between the Ming Dynasty and its vassal states.

The population of Manchuria in 1900 was 17,000,000 (data from Wikipedia - Manchuria), which was 70 times the population of Hokkaido during the same period.
I don't know why there is a huge gap in location density for areas so close together,
it looks too strange.
Using 19 million for Manchuria is quite misleading when the population was much lower in 1800 and even before
 
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Using 19 million for Manchuria is quite misleading when the population was much lower in 1800 and even before
Here are some population data of Yuan Dynasty and Ming Dynasty about Manchuria:
Yuan Dynasty: 1,300,000
Ming Dynasty: 5,950,000
6 million still a quite huge number, isn't it?
All these data are from Population Research (Liaoning, Jilin and Heilongjiang)
 
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From what I can see from the relious map it seems you guys intend to split the pagan religions by culture groups(which I really like), in that case I suggest dividing the Tengri religion in two, the Tengri for the Mongols and a new one for the Turks, otherwise I'd eliminate the Tungustic one so to have Tengri as the Altaic pagan religion.
 
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There should be some Chinese pops in the Liaodong area. While the Mongols certainly killed a large population, the Han population in Liaodong have lived alongside the local Jurchen population during the Jin and Liao dynasties. While there were also some Han population during the earlier periods of the Warring States, Qin, Han, the chaos that came after destabilized the region, and the Han population that should be in the region is believed to arrive during the Tang dynasty.

On the map, Shenyang have some Korean population, which would not make sense if the region does not have any Han population, as the Koreans were brought in from the peninsula by Yuan to serve as administrators over the Han population.
I cannot provide a precise number, but certain areas, especially Dalian and close to Hebei, should have a majority, while the rest should have atleast 20-50% Han population(Liaodong only). Shenyang should also have a significant Han population, again referencing to the point made above.
 
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