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Tinto Maps #22 - 11th of October 2024 - Mongolia, Manchuria and Eastern Siberia

Hello and welcome another week to the amazing world of Tinto Maps. This week we are covering a very wide area, as we will take a look at Mongolia, Manchuria and all Eastern Siberia. So, without much further ado, let’s get started.

Countries
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Here, clearly, the Yuán Dynasty of China controls much of the territory, while all of the Siberian expanses are “open” to colonization. Considering Manchuria, the Jurchen tribes posed a tricky question, as some of them were more settled and Chinese-influenced while others were more nomadic and pastoralist, and some were in between. Thus, we decided to represent the more settled tribes that would later confederate into the Manchu as separate countries vassals of Yuán, while there is also Jurchen population inside the borders of Yuán itself and the most nomadic of them represented as Society of Pops.

Societies of Pops
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And speaking of that, most of them are obviously concentrated in Manchuria and around the borders of the countries and coasts, while the more inhospitable places further into Siberia and Kamchatka are more sparsely populated and thus less organized.

Dynasties
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Nothing that wasn’t expected here, Borjigin dynasty keeps dominating another week. Concerning the Jurchen, currently none of them have scripted dynasties assigned and are generated instead.

Locations
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Provinces
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Areas
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Terrain
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The drier parts of the Gobi Desert in the Mongolian Plateau give way to the steppes and grasslands of Manchuria, while further into Siberia it gets dominated by mountains, hills, forests, and as one would expect from Siberia, cold.

Development
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Not much development in these parts either, and as I mentioned in last week’s Tinto Maps, the sudden change in development when entering China will have to be reviewed, as it’s currently too strong.

Natural Harbors
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Cultures
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Quite a varied cultural landscape, as these areas are populated by many different peoples, sometimes expanding through a wide area while others are more localized. On the other hand, the Mongolian Plateau is very much dominated by Mongolian culture.

Religions
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Very diverse religion distribution too, with Tengri, Shamanism, and local variations of it with Tungustic Shamanism (brown), Yukaghir Shamanism (light blue) and Chukchee Shamanism (purple). I have to say that we are currently going through a review of all the religions of the world defined as either “Animism” or “Shamanism”, so it is possible that there are some changes in this distribution in the future.

Raw Materials
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Very marked distribution of resources, with Mongolia and Manchuria rich in livestock and horses (as one would expect from the horse lords) while the forests of Siberia are full of fur and wild game and the northern coasts are a big source of ivory (from the world-famous arctic elephant herds, of course). However, the mountainous areas also include precious metals like gold and silver, so their colonization may thus prove quite beneficial. Another thing of note is that fish can be found abundantly not only along the coasts but also along the major rivers crossing Siberia.

Markets
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First of all, we have reverted back to the previous way of visualizing markets, as it was clear that the change we did to it was not in the good direction. We will keep testing and trying things, so this will probably not be the final view of it, but for now we reverted back to this version as we think it would be clearer to present. Having said that, these are areas with not much market presence, with the markets of Karakorum and Ilan Hala being the main ones, and the Chinese markets encroaching on the southern parts. Siberia doesn’t have any market of its own, so all of it has currently no access.

Population
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The only countries we have population to show here are the Jurchen ones, with the mighty Yuán ever encroaching on them. Concerning the populations of the locations, one thing I have to mention is that you will see many of them with the value of 150, that is the general default value that we used for the less populated areas of all eastern Siberia, where population estimates of the period don’t allow for much fine tuning. It is probably something that we will adjust.

And that is it for this week. Next week, after having been teasing it and slithering around its edges for a while now, it will be finally time to face the dragon, as we will showcase the entirety of China. Hope to see you all there, and as always very open (and grateful) to all your feedback.
 
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what about giving Yuan Blue ? the green is the color of the Song dynasty alongside Cyan. but blue & purple appeared in yuan china lot.

Yuan even though Used yellow and silver colors for royal reasons they still used LOT of blue in their things , clothes , porcelain , decorations of buildings also in blue

here is the chinese & mongol versions of their banners

View attachment 1200689
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these bellow are military banners
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View attachment 1200700View attachment 1200701
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The building is mosque LOL
 
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Similarly to my Horde feedback:

So I gave it a try and a couple of free evenings to find some better names instead of all those Russified locations in the Horde.

here I post some assumptions for not-so-russified naming for dynamic naming for the start date.

Blue text - name by a local river or lake
Red text - another settlement nearby or using just the root of the Russified name.

LOCATIONS:
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I would also add that you have probably too much locations here, in some cases the devs made a location from one village that probably have 100 inhabitants or locations with no sign of life even nowadays. You probably can reduce the number of locations by 20%.


PROVINCES:
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AREAS:
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Take note that you have Yakutsk Sea instead of Okhotsk (Okhota), but it goes far beyond the Okhotsk Sea, so I would call it Siberian Coastline.
 
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I’d prefer the Pacific North area be called North Pacific instead, it sounds better and it’s what the area is called in basically all sources I’ve seen from all eras.
 
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I get not having Itelmens as a society of pops, though I'd like them to be, but not having the Chukchi as a society of pops seems a very strange decision.
 
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To think there are people who are still concerned about the "lack of locations in China" is kinda funny
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To think there are people who think "To think there are people who are still concerned about the "lack of locations in China" is kinda funny" is kinda funny.
Just Look at Hokkaido. Ussuri area (EU5) has a couple times more population than Ezo area, yet it has only half the number of locations. An average province in Ussuri area is like half the size of the entire area of Ezo and an average location in Ussuri is larger than an average province in Ezo. Yet you are not concerned about the lack of locations in China? Very funny.
 
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Who are the "Khamag" who live in Barga and Khamag? I thought Bargas were a subgroup of Buryats who are in turn a subgroups of Mongolians?

Are they tha Khamag Mongol from 12th century?I've never heard of them as a distinct ethnicity. They are literally the reason the term refers to all Mongolians instead of Tatar etc according Christopher Atwood in his new translation of the Secret history.
 
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3.Probably the Chuckchi were not considered suitable for a SoP at the moment, but we can take another look at them
While they were certainly less populous than many SoPs in the game, I would second the addition of Chukchi as one. They fought wars against the Koryaks (shown as a SoP here) and Russians, and had a pretty intricate clan structure

Similarly, the Itelmen to the south also deserve a SoP, they were quite well organized - hundreds of different villages trading with eachother, fortified settlements Russians needed to besiege etc.

Both (with Itelmen incorrectly named Kamchadals) were also playable tags in EU4
 
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A natural harbor determines the benefits that the natural geography of the place to serve as a harbor. So, it has nothing to do with how well it functions as an actual port or how developed it is. For example, an awful coast as natural harbor could have very good port infrastructure built in it and thus actually be a good port, while the best place in the world to moor a vessel would do almost nothing unless a proper infrastructure is built there. So, only natural geographical elements affect our qualification of natural harbor, things like the steepness of the shore, the protection from the elements due to bays or nearby mountains, how strong is the current, etc.
From both a historical and a geographical perspective, the Achava location (modern Petropavlovsk Kamchatskiy) should be a good port rather than a non-existent one - we can see it's well protected by a mountainous bay.
Screenshot_20241011_223114_Maps.png
 
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No, they have a different form of Shamanism. We are currently doing a pass on all animism religions, and we'll probably have to do one on all shamanist ones too, so that is susceptible to change.
How did you determine the differnce between Shamanism and Animism?
 
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2 Yìzhōu → Yízhōu(懿州).
懿 has only one pronunciation, yi4 in Mandarin. Neither Wikipedia and Baidu Baike articles about the historical city mentions any unusual readings, and both Wiktionary and Baidu Baike agree that it has no reading yi2.
 
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Cool! But hear me out...
Ugolnye in Chukotka not producing Coal seems like an insult to the place name, literally meaning this resource, heh.
Otherwise all seems like a great amount of locations and I guess a more well-equipped people will find something to expand on and change.
 
If you can try to rename all the religion to something different than "culture shamanism" using local words like suomenusko or just use the name of the culture like norse
Don't worry I got you...

Ainu: Their word for Kami is Kamuy. Their word for 'sacred life force' (maybe like Mana, Orenda, Sila?) is Ramat. They had altars to the Kamuy called Nusa.
Aleut: The Aleut from what I've read seem to have a significantly distinct religious system from their Inuit and Yupik cousins so I wouldn't lump them together. They had holy places called Awabayabax and used the word Kugans for spirits.
Bjamarian: I've read a whole lot of contradictory information about these guys and who they're related to. You could probably get away with lumping them into the BaltoFinnic, Sami and Komi religions from what I've read.
Chukchi and Friends: The Chukchi called their spirits Kelet. Their creator god is called Raven (Kuutkh) (Kutx to the Itelmen) but they don't worship or like him. From reconstructed proto C-K s scholars reconstructed annen(a) meaning soul/inner self. Frankly, it's hard to find good words to use for them.
Even-Evenk: They use the word Udugan to mean shamanness. Their word for soul is Omi. Could also make them the generic shamanism or call them saman as the Tungusic peoples are where the word derives from.
Finns and BaltoFinnic Friends: Since some people really hate Suomensko, Vaenusko could also be used as it just means 'religion of the folk/people.'
Inuit: Could use the word for shamans, Angakkuit or their word for spirits (including their own), Anirniit. They also had a concept called Sila that was similar to Polynesian Mana and Haudenosaunee Orenda.
Khanty-Mansi: They use the word Najt for shaman. Turum (I've seen it spelled 15,000 different ways) is their supreme god. The Mansi and Khanty have very similar religious practices, the remnants of the prehungarians would likely also be similar.
Kumandin+Shor: This depends a lot on what you want Tengrism to be. If you want it to reflect the polytheistic ancestral religion of the turks and mongols of the steppe and the monolatrous Tengri worship that arose from it (Big T Tengrism), or just the monolatrous worship of Tengri (Small t tengrism). If you want it to be tengrism then the Sakha, Shor, Bashkirs and Kumandins and frankly scattered pops across the steppe should have a different religion rooted in Mongol-Turkic religion. If you want it to be Tengrism then the Kumandins/Shors should be Tengri and not shamanist.
Manchurians: Their word for a god is Akha, but the gods together are known as Enduri. Their rituals took place in Tangse.
Mari: They Mari word for god is Yumo or Jumo. Cimariijula means Mari religion in Mari. The Mari call pagan Mari Chimari and those who practice both paganism and Christianity Marla Vera. Sacred places are called Kusoto. Mari religion shows various similarities to all of their neighboring uralic faiths (Baltofinnic, Mordvinic, Permic) so could be lumped into them.
Mordvins: The Muromians, Meryans, Eryzans, Meshchera and Mokshas. They call their gods Paz and their spirits Azor. Their neopagan movement is named Mastorava. I think Ines, In, Inyaru or something like that means sacred or divine, but I can't find it explicitly stated anywhere, just implied as the Ine/In root seems to show up before many religious vocabulary.
Nenet-Enet-Yurat-Selkup-Kamassian: They call their shamans Tadibya. They are sort of dualistic (might be superstructural Christianity) between the creator god Num and the underworld god Nga.
Nganasan: They call their supreme beings, Nguo.
Nivkh They call their gods Yz and their shamans Cham.
Permian (Komi-Udmurt): Komi called their pagans Chudin during christization. They had two creator gods En and Omol. They called their high priest Pam.
Sami: They call their shamans Noaidi. They have sacred sites known as Sieidi.
Uralic: The protoUralic reconstructed word for shaman is Nojta and the practice itself is reconstructed as Jada, if you want a broad Uralic religion.
Yeneseians: The Ket call their ancestors (who they worship) Dangols and their highest god Es.
Yukaghirs: They use alman, alma, olamn or wolmen to mean shaman. Their highest god is the sun (Pugu).
Yupik: Yupik seem to have a similar religious system to their Inuit cousins so I think they should be lumped together. They even use a cognate word for shaman.

These words can be used to name a religion by recontextualizing it in English as an 'ism' (whether you put -ism at the end or not) since there were no terms for these religions at the time, so all names are anachronistic and equally so (Including in equal measure and weight sami shamanism, mari religion, [insert culture] religion, [insert culture] shamanism) so names have to be made up. Better to pick, natural, less placeholdery names that don't sound like something you'd find in a dataset or filing cabinet.
 
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What does it mean to have impassible terrain with good harbours (eg a large green one near the Bering strait)?

What does it mean to have ports with good harbours, but for them only to be connected to impassable ocean zones (in the Arctic circle none of the ports are connected to passable ocean)?

How does that long seazone in the Arctic in the that doesn't touch the land work?
 
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