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Tinto Maps #22 - 11th of October 2024 - Mongolia, Manchuria and Eastern Siberia

Hello and welcome another week to the amazing world of Tinto Maps. This week we are covering a very wide area, as we will take a look at Mongolia, Manchuria and all Eastern Siberia. So, without much further ado, let’s get started.

Countries
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Here, clearly, the Yuán Dynasty of China controls much of the territory, while all of the Siberian expanses are “open” to colonization. Considering Manchuria, the Jurchen tribes posed a tricky question, as some of them were more settled and Chinese-influenced while others were more nomadic and pastoralist, and some were in between. Thus, we decided to represent the more settled tribes that would later confederate into the Manchu as separate countries vassals of Yuán, while there is also Jurchen population inside the borders of Yuán itself and the most nomadic of them represented as Society of Pops.

Societies of Pops
Societies of Pops.png

And speaking of that, most of them are obviously concentrated in Manchuria and around the borders of the countries and coasts, while the more inhospitable places further into Siberia and Kamchatka are more sparsely populated and thus less organized.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Nothing that wasn’t expected here, Borjigin dynasty keeps dominating another week. Concerning the Jurchen, currently none of them have scripted dynasties assigned and are generated instead.

Locations
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Provinces
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Areas
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Terrain
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The drier parts of the Gobi Desert in the Mongolian Plateau give way to the steppes and grasslands of Manchuria, while further into Siberia it gets dominated by mountains, hills, forests, and as one would expect from Siberia, cold.

Development
Development.png

Not much development in these parts either, and as I mentioned in last week’s Tinto Maps, the sudden change in development when entering China will have to be reviewed, as it’s currently too strong.

Natural Harbors
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Cultures
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Quite a varied cultural landscape, as these areas are populated by many different peoples, sometimes expanding through a wide area while others are more localized. On the other hand, the Mongolian Plateau is very much dominated by Mongolian culture.

Religions
Religions.png

Very diverse religion distribution too, with Tengri, Shamanism, and local variations of it with Tungustic Shamanism (brown), Yukaghir Shamanism (light blue) and Chukchee Shamanism (purple). I have to say that we are currently going through a review of all the religions of the world defined as either “Animism” or “Shamanism”, so it is possible that there are some changes in this distribution in the future.

Raw Materials
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Very marked distribution of resources, with Mongolia and Manchuria rich in livestock and horses (as one would expect from the horse lords) while the forests of Siberia are full of fur and wild game and the northern coasts are a big source of ivory (from the world-famous arctic elephant herds, of course). However, the mountainous areas also include precious metals like gold and silver, so their colonization may thus prove quite beneficial. Another thing of note is that fish can be found abundantly not only along the coasts but also along the major rivers crossing Siberia.

Markets
Markets.png

First of all, we have reverted back to the previous way of visualizing markets, as it was clear that the change we did to it was not in the good direction. We will keep testing and trying things, so this will probably not be the final view of it, but for now we reverted back to this version as we think it would be clearer to present. Having said that, these are areas with not much market presence, with the markets of Karakorum and Ilan Hala being the main ones, and the Chinese markets encroaching on the southern parts. Siberia doesn’t have any market of its own, so all of it has currently no access.

Population
Population.png

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The only countries we have population to show here are the Jurchen ones, with the mighty Yuán ever encroaching on them. Concerning the populations of the locations, one thing I have to mention is that you will see many of them with the value of 150, that is the general default value that we used for the less populated areas of all eastern Siberia, where population estimates of the period don’t allow for much fine tuning. It is probably something that we will adjust.

And that is it for this week. Next week, after having been teasing it and slithering around its edges for a while now, it will be finally time to face the dragon, as we will showcase the entirety of China. Hope to see you all there, and as always very open (and grateful) to all your feedback.
 
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I just noticed for anyone complaining Hokkaido has too many locations. St lawrence island has 3 locations lmfao. From my memory France being 550,000km has around 500 locations Hokkaido being 83,000 km has 56 locations.
France 1,100 sqkm per location. 1,482 sqkm per location. St Lawrence island is 4,640 sqkm for 3 locations has around 1,500 sqkm per location which is extremely funny to me lol. Not that im advocating for less locations in St lawrence island of course, but locations in Outer and Inner Manchuria should probably be similar at the very least
I did some calculations for Manchuria, Outer Manchuria has a location count of around 100 give or take which while not terrible could probably be improved maybe to around 150 or at most 200 imo. Inner Manchuria or todays 东北 (Dongbei) aka Northeast. Inner Manchuria excluding Liaodong has around 119 give or take. If we were to go according to France's density this place would have 600 locations lol, i think it would be reasonable for it to have between 200+ to 300+ locations since it technically wasnt that populated at this time atleast compared to the rest of China. Although we would need more specifics for that which im sure people will suggest eventually
 
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Another thing to point out i think the devs should if possible in all their next tinto maps if they can somehow make rivers visible on the location maps because the existence of rivers and their relative positioning makes it alot easier for people to map out extra location densities in specific areas and allows us to give better feedback there was an example of this in the India thread from my memory. Just a thought.
 
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Hello and welcome another week to the amazing world of Tinto Maps. This week we are covering a very wide area, as we will take a look at Mongolia, Manchuria and all Eastern Siberia. So, without much further ado, let’s get started.

Countries
View attachment 1197847
View attachment 1197848
Here, clearly, the Yuán Dynasty of China controls much of the territory, while all of the Siberian expanses are “open” to colonization. Considering Manchuria, the Jurchen tribes posed a tricky question, as some of them were more settled and Chinese-influenced while others were more nomadic and pastoralist, and some were in between. Thus, we decided to represent the more settled tribes that would later confederate into the Manchu as separate countries vassals of Yuán, while there is also Jurchen population inside the borders of Yuán itself and the most nomadic of them represented as Society of Pops.

Societies of Pops
View attachment 1197851
And speaking of that, most of them are obviously concentrated in Manchuria and around the borders of the countries and coasts, while the more inhospitable places further into Siberia and Kamchatka are more sparsely populated and thus less organized.

Dynasties
View attachment 1197852
Nothing that wasn’t expected here, Borjigin dynasty keeps dominating another week. Concerning the Jurchen, currently none of them have scripted dynasties assigned and are generated instead.

Locations
View attachment 1197853

Provinces
View attachment 1197863

Areas
View attachment 1197867

Terrain
View attachment 1197868
View attachment 1197869
View attachment 1197870
The drier parts of the Gobi Desert in the Mongolian Plateau give way to the steppes and grasslands of Manchuria, while further into Siberia it gets dominated by mountains, hills, forests, and as one would expect from Siberia, cold.

Development
View attachment 1197871
Not much development in these parts either, and as I mentioned in last week’s Tinto Maps, the sudden change in development when entering China will have to be reviewed, as it’s currently too strong.

Natural Harbors
View attachment 1198302

Cultures
View attachment 1197872
Quite a varied cultural landscape, as these areas are populated by many different peoples, sometimes expanding through a wide area while others are more localized. On the other hand, the Mongolian Plateau is very much dominated by Mongolian culture.

Religions
View attachment 1197876
Very diverse religion distribution too, with Tengri, Shamanism, and local variations of it with Tungustic Shamanism (brown), Yukaghir Shamanism (light blue) and Chukchee Shamanism (purple). I have to say that we are currently going through a review of all the religions of the world defined as either “Animism” or “Shamanism”, so it is possible that there are some changes in this distribution in the future.

Raw Materials
View attachment 1197877
View attachment 1197878View attachment 1197881View attachment 1197880
资源分布非常明显,蒙古和满洲盛产牲畜和马匹(正如人们对马王的期望),而西伯利亚的森林到处都是毛皮和野味,北部海岸是象牙的重要来源(当然来自世界著名的北极象群)。然而,山区还包括金和银等贵金属,因此它们的定居可能被证明是相当有益的。另一件值得注意的事情是,不仅在沿海地区,而且在穿越西伯利亚的主要河流沿岸都可以找到丰富的鱼。

市场
View attachment 1197882
首先,我们又回到了之前可视化市场的方式,因为很明显,我们所做的改变并不是朝着好的方向发展。我们将继续测试和尝试,所以这可能不是它的最终视图,但现在我们恢复到这个版本,因为我们认为它会更清晰地呈现。话虽如此,这些地区市场占有率不高,喀喇昆仑和伊兰哈拉市场是主要市场,而中国市场则蚕食南部地区。西伯利亚没有自己的市场,所以目前所有市场都无法进入。

人口
View attachment 1197883
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View attachment 1197885View attachment 1197886View attachment 1197887View attachment 1197888View attachment 1197889
[/剧透]
我们在这里唯一可以展示人口的国家是女真人,强大的 Yuán 从未侵占过他们。关于这些地点的人口,我不得不提到的一点是,你会看到其中许多地点的值为 150,这是我们用于所有东西伯利亚人口较少地区的一般默认值,这些地区的人口估计不允许进行太多的微调。这可能是我们会调整的事情。

这就是本周的内容。下周,在叮咬它并在它的边缘滑行了一段时间之后,终于到了面对巨龙的时候了,因为我们将展示整个中国。希望在那里见到你们,并一如既往地对你们的所有反馈非常开放(并感激)。
 
We need some more Mongolian examples. The Mongols of the Yuan Khanate did not believe in Islam.
Although the Mongols did like to use the color Koko as their representative, it was usually understood as blue. In Chinese, Koko is translated as Qing color, which corresponds to cyan.
Green_and_blue_make_cyan.png
ughhhh why you have a beef with that mosque ? i showed plenty examples of flags and porcelain and clothes and you only seems looking at the mosque alone and calling it not mongol somehow.
the Yuan built hundreds of mosques still its a known fact , there was even a majority muslim areas in Canton and Yunan cities who did even Rebel later . one of the successors khans who was chosen to be the next Khan after the death of the first Tomur was a muslim called Ananda king of Anxi in china and he was innitially chosen but a coup was made against him by Ayurbarwarda .
even though Yuan were very pro budhism and confusism the islam played a massive role too. soooo many ministers of the Right and left and high court members of the Yuan were either muslim converted mongols or from middle east scholars and i can name them if you wish.


1728732270438.png



the fact you keep thinking that mosque was some sort of none mongol thing is weird igonoring that golden age islam in china was under the Yuan where the number of muslims reached 4 millions
Over 10,000 Muslim names can be identified in Yuan historical records. The standard word for Muslims in Chinese language documents of the late Yuan period is "Huihui" (回回)
"The territory of the Yuan dynasty was divided into 12 districts during the reign of Kublai with a governor and vice-governor each. According to the Iranian historian Rashid-al-Din Hamadani, of these 12 governors, 8 were Muslims; in the remaining districts, Muslims were vice-governors"

also reminder that Yuan brought also muslim engineers for warfare and thats how they got the trebuchet , they called it "Hui hui Pao" literally mean Muslim Trebuchet
1728732729257.png



here is btw more Yuan mosque and temple , do you see anything familiar ?

1728732898282.png


View attachment 1201029
1728732772303.png



finally i am not sure what you are trying to prove here , do you insinuate they loved the Green and that should be their flag ? because thats not true , thats the color of the Song . you gonna say they like Yellow ? that was only the imperial color . you gonna say they loved Red ? they did but combined with blue shades .


please do not mention the mosque again i still dont understand why you only focus on that
 
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I really love islands. But it seems to me that you went a little overboard with the number of provinces in Hokkaido (there are 58 of them). It is better to transfer part of this amount to Sakhalin (where there are only 8 of them).

There are 21 provinces in my proposal for Sakhalin (10 for Nivkhs, 11 for Ainu). Of which 19 have the names of indigenous people.

View attachment 1201046
Based of the recent controversy in the forum Hokkaido seems to have 56 or so provinces which is a very high amount (not that im complaining)

EU4- 4 tiles 20,750sqkm per location
HOI4- 12 tiles 6,916sqkm per location
VIC3 25 tiles 3,320sqkm per location
CK3 Asia mod - 23 Tiles 3,608sqkm per location
PC - 56 tiles!!! 1,482sqkm per location

Sakhalin is as follows
EU4 - 2 tiles 38,200sqkm per location
HOI4 - 6 tiles 12,732sqkm per location
Vic3 - 26 tiles 2,938sqkm per location
CK3 Asia mod- 32 tiles 2,387sqkm per location
PC- 8 tiles 9,550sqkm per location

Sakhalin Size- 76,400
Hokkaido size- 83,000 sqkm

I think after reviewing this data I think Sakhalin requires quite a large of lift in tile densely along with Manchuria probably between 15-32

BONUS: Kamchatka
EU4 1.5-2 tiles
HOI4 6 tiles
VIC 3 - 130 tiles?!?
PC - 27 tiles

I had a post in a different thread comparing the amount of locations for each area in different games and different mods and it seemed like Sakhalin was particularly light in terms of location density so this is a great suggestion
 
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We discussed internally about it, and we decided that the tribal distribution would be more on an "administrative" level than on a "cultural" one. Meaning that yes, they would be different tribes answering to different chiefs, but they would all have the same cultural background to be classified under the same Mongolian culture in the game. The only main exception we did with this was with the Oirats, because they were the ones that broke further away. So those divisions you mention would be better represented as tags than as cultures in our opinion. This also gives cultural cohesion to the Golden Horde, Chagatai, and Yuan.
I am wondering then, why are the Evenk clans treated as separate cultures? I would rather prefer them be of same culture, and be represented as specific clans...
 
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this is not funny anymore . the inconsistencies are too much
with wastelands you have sweden who didnt colonise its north till the 1500s allowed to colonise that but those outside europe are infected with wastelands unable to expand like brazil or yemen or morocco algerian border or central asia even though there is literal locations and whole peoples in there .
then we have inconsistencies with cultures and population
then inconsistencies with naming
then inconsistencies with density with some areas being as dense as whole countries like Tunise vs Hokaido
its just bad . when i work on a map and i realise i created a new standard of density i literally increase detail in the whole map to avoid the issue , to not show a small country more detailed than one much larger and with more peoples .
the devs need to use this same logic , there should be a RATIO to respect . there shouldnt be a ratio by popularity but a ratio by real life density and human activity troughout that 500 years of the game .
 
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Hello, I live in Siberia and I have some corrections regarding the place names you used.
1. location “Nizhneudinsk”. This is the name of a modern city, not the largest within the designated location. If you use the name of this town, it would be better to use “Udinsk” - the old name of the settlement. But also, you can use the toponym “Tulun”, today it is the largest city within the selected location. Also, in favor of this version is the map of Guillaume Delille, 1706, which is marked “Tulun”, but there is no “Nizhneudinsk”. Also the fact that CK3 uses exactly “Tulun” (if you follow the precedents).
2. “Old zima” location. “Zima” in this case is a proper name, so it should be capitalized.
I'd be glad if you'd take note!
 

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Just pointing out the location density issue.

Let aside pop density, which should also be correlated to some extent… EU4 had a roughly progressive province size, although for sure some regions were never « refined » by late patches, but regions who were presented a progressive increase in size as pop density decreased.
In comparison, as pointed out by fellow members, Britanny has less location than Hokkaido.

Referencing to another recent game, I name VIC3, you can see that this issue was present too.
The whole world map was divided into a roughly equal cell voronoi diagram.
Alaska, which is about 50% « expanded » with the map distortion (so much bigger than it actually is) still get the same « voronoi cell size » than a location in central Africa (although this latitude is technically about 2x bigger in real size).

This ends up with « colonization » taking much longer, although the area is actually smaller and the population too.

Just showing the Tissot indicatrix for Gall stereographic, the map projection chosen for project Caesar. This represents both shape and size distortion (the bigger the circle the more distorted the size)
While Britanny is indeed a little « north, pop density should also be taken into account.
On the other hand, seeing micro locations with huge « impassable terrain » in Alaska doesn’t make much sense since these locations should be roughly 2x as big as Hokkaido, let aside the pop density. To represent their lower pop density, they should be even bigger comparatively

1728751589072.jpeg


Below is an example of a contemporary population size voronoi diagram (size / area also taken into account, as you can see the cell size increasing in ocean at extreme latitudes).
Although not applicable strictly as such for the early modern era, it already gives a tendency.
3586091365_7e47f348ec_z.jpg
 
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Yes the location density seems pretty illogical in some places. Compare it to Manchuria which are 2-3 times bigger although by the period both were really sparsely populated
I need to point out that the population of Manchuria in the Yuan Dynasty was over 1.5 million, which is equal to the sum of the population of Lithuania and Kiev in the previous tinto maps. I do not think this population is very sparse (especially compared to European countries), while the population of Hokkaido was far below 50000 at that time.
Hokkaido maybe need such loactions to point out the tribes, Manchuria also should have at least more locations to mark those Manchu tribes (I do not think it could close to the location density in Eastern europe, 'cause some people don't want to see the East have so much locations equally to the West)
 
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