Tinto Maps #24 - 25th of October - Japan and Korea

[Grand Historian]

Well, I figure I can login in to give my two cents on the Japan content:

More impassable terrain is needed. All of the Japanese main islands are virtually bisected by steep mountain ranges, securing and holding chokepoints was the mainstay of Japanese strategic convention at the time as the highways proper were all built along valleys and the coast. As a brief visual representation of what I would recommend:

Spoiler

:

I would also recommend more mountains and hills:

Spoiler

I'm not going to try a hatchet job of editing more images, so I'll just list the kori that I think ought to be at the very least. While I understand that the logic behind some of the terrain choices is that even in mountainous areas the population centers that were being fought over were all along the plains and valleys, there is so much granularity to these provinces that many represent the roughest terrain and least densely populated parts of those.

Hishikari, Nishimorokata, Kitamorokata, Mashiki - all hills, at least, as they straddle the mountains running through the middle of Kyushu.
Aso - Hills at least, should be Mountains; the area was centered around an active volcano and featured the mountain passes between three provinces. While there is some flatland around the caldera the area as a whole is steep and boasts the highest peaks in Kyushu.
Kanoashi, Yamagata, Eso, Aka, Mashima. Yabu - all of these should probably be mountains instead of hills as they run the spine of the Chugoku Mountains
Nishikubiki - should be mountains instead of Hills, the area (which is home to Itogawa, Japan's largest domestic source of Jade), has such a steep pass it was more common for people to simply sail around Noto into Echigo than try to go overland.
Sunto, Tagata, Kamo and Ashigara - Sunto is at the base of Mt. Fuji, Tagata and Kamo constitute Izu which was dominated by the (gold rich) Amagi mountain range, and Ashigara was the traditional chokepoint into Kanto because of its Mountains. Sunto should be at least hills, Kamo and Ashigara should absolutely be mountains; there was some arable terrain in Tagata but its southern half was also dominated by mountains
Kesen, Kamihei, Kitahei and Kuji - the least inhabited part of Mutsu and the most mountainous part. There is no reason for these to be anything other than mountains.

Regarding trade, I'm not entirely sold on the idea of a single market for all of Japan; obviously gameplay considerations come first and you all would know more about that than me, but I would personally recommend putting everything west of Kinai into a second Hakata market and renaming Izumi to Sakai; Hakata, like Sakai, was an autonomous merchant city that had extensive foreign connections, and western Japan processed the overwhelming majority of Japan's foreign trade, nevermind being the favorite haunt of the Wokou. If Japan would be only one market, though, I'd recommend just calling the node Kinai or Kansai instead of Izumi; it better reflects the nature of the Japanese economy in that all trade was gradually pulled into one or two central regions (Kinai being the traditional one before the establishment of the Tokugawa Shogunate), the Gokishichido being built expressly for that purpose, and more importantly that Izumi itself doesn't make much sense for the whole of the timeframe; Sakai was indeed a very important trade city, but Kyoto still commanded a good deal of custom, while Osaka was in Settsu. Izumi Nada could also be another better name, being the old term for Osaka Bay.

I would also recommend changing the Natural Harbors of Kyushu slightly. Kishima, Saga, Tamana and Mii were not home to major ports of call, while Ibusuki possessed the port of Bonotsu and Oita possessed Funai, both of which were major ports in Kyushu and are currently insignificant compared to them. Nishimatsuura (rather, the island of Hirado in it), Akae Port in Miyazaki and Saiki in Amabe would all grow to be important regional ports in the game's time, though I don't know if you're basing your selections purely off of what was most relevant in 1337.

A minor nitpick; I understand the need to conglomerate a bunch of the really small provinces, but Wakasa is the only one that seems to have actually been partitioned. I'd suggest putting the part that was assigned to Tsugura into Onyu, since Onyu was the center of Wakasa anyhow.

Finally, on Shinto - why not just Shinto-Buddhism? Is it a convention issue where you just want every religion to have only a single word? I don't think the term is fairly obscure since Shogun 2 used it and conveys what it's about effectively.

 

[mcmanusaur]

At best, the massive difference in location density between China and Japan is ahistorical railroading that doesn’t belong in this time period.

 

[North1735]

So, how is Japan set up to be played (government structured)? Is it similar to an HRE?

 

[Mef]

Regarding trade, I'm not entirely sold on the idea of a single market for all of Japan; obviously gameplay considerations come first and you all would know more about that than me, but I would personally recommend putting everything west of Kinai into a second Hakata market and renaming Izumi to Sakai

The game decides dynamically what market a location is part of. The only thing that is determined by script is the location of the market, in this case the Izumi location.

 

[MTCicero]

A few questions about the Niikawa region, since that's what I'm familiar with:

Certainly, Fish makes sense for the region's resource during the start of the game. However, over the course of the game, there were several other important resources discovered in Niikawa which could be represented with Events:

1. Lumber
   
   The wood resources of the Niikawa mountains were critical to the Maeda clan's power (during the time that Niikawa was part of Kaga Domain, ruled from Kanazawa), and in 1598 they established regular mountain patrols to crack down on "pirate" loggers from the neighboring Shinano region as well as map and inventory the resources in the mountains. These patrols, known as 奥山廻り, would continue throughout the Edo era.
   
   
2. Gold
   
   Obviously, a resource this powerful has game balance implications. However, there were significant gold resources discovered in the Niikawa mountains during this period as well – indeed, one of the major reasons why Kanazawa is known today for its gold-leaf artwork (and gold-leaf-covered soft-serve, but that's another story) is because of the gold resources mined from Niikawa. They contributed heavily to the Maeda clan's wealth and ability to maintain a stable government in the region.
   
   Collectively, these are members of the "Seven Gold Mines of Etchū" (越中七金山). However, of those, only four are literal gold mines – the others are two silver mines and a lead mine (connected with the lead resources of Yoshioka County to the south – nice representation there!) which nonetheless earned the Kaga domain quite a lot of money. Those four gold gold mines, however, are all in the Niikawa region. They are:
   Matsukura Gold Mine (松倉金山) – Sources I can find say it was discovered in the Ōei Period (between 1398-1428), and was most productive during the Keichō Period (1596-1615). It should be noted that that denotes the peak, and not the length of production by any means. A record from 1786 records 82.5 kg of gold coins being processed in a single month. This was the largest mine of the four, and the one with most information about it.
   Kawaranami Gold Mine (河原波金山) – Discovered in 1533, likewise most productive during Keichō.
   Geda Gold Mine (下田金山) – Discovered 1574.
   Toradani Gold Mine (虎谷金山) – Discovered 1615, most productive around 1640.
   
   Because these mines were controlled by a domain, rather than the Shogunate, information and access was kept highly secret and records were often destroyed. As a result, there are only glimpses remaining of how productive they truly were. However, some estimate that they may have been more productive than even the Sado gold mines. Certainly, their effect on the Kaga Domain finances can't be understated, and even if they didn't beat out Sado they were still quite significant in the Hokuriku region.
   
   I can't post a link, but there's a PDF of a talk given by Prof. Masaaki Shimizu called "富山の地下資源、とくに越中七金山について" (you can probably find it if you search that) which is a good source for this, though the information in it is widely available through other sources as well. I may have a book in my library with some additional information if necessary.

​

 

[blue0china]

Isn't there a better name than North Seogyeong? Like Anbuk. Seogyeong means the western capital, so North Western Capital seems a bit unnatural.

And Do is the name of administrative district, so I think it's a bit unnecessary to be a part of name of areas.

 

[Grand Historian]

The game decides dynamically what market a location is part of. The only thing that is determined by script is the location of the market, in this case the Izumi location.

Well, yes, but I'm saying there probably should be a second market at start from a historical perspective.

 

[Hyperion_656]

Will Hangul be an advance that Korea can research?

 

[Fialove_koralky]

Hello, Thank you for your great effort for Korea. But I have some opinion: Three.


The first is Naming of Areas.

Although Early Goryeo used 5do yanggye system, due to mongolian Invasion, Political chaos, and etc, Later Goryeo's system was so different from Early.

' in Korean wikipedia 'Gyojudo(plz write Hangeul)', and in 'Formation and Transition of Gyo-Ju-Do (Administrative District) in Goryeo Dynasty'
These two says 'Later Goryeo's donggye is lose his roles and integrated with gyojudo.

and Yuan dynasty's 'Ssangseongchonggwanbu' and 'Dongnyeongbu' could see Bukgye also lose his roles, and according to the tendency of gaegyeong(gaeseong)'s larger, and 'Found of Joseon and established '8-do system', I think that it is right naming areas in korea based '8-do system', Not only due to Goryeo become Joseon not long after, Also Later Goryeo's district was very similar with Joseon's that.


The second is numbers of locations and its names,
UK: 315k km^2, 267 locations(8.5 loc/10k km^2)
France:550k km^2, 450 locations(8.2 loc/10km^2)
Japan:375k km^2, 400 locations(10.7loc/10km^2)
Although, Korea:220k km^2, 144 locations(6.5loc/10km^2)

So, I suggest some new locations and make an adjust some names:

The last is for population. as many people said, We think Goryeo's population:2.5M is so few. I think best choice is 4~4.5M, other think 3M, other 3.5M, other 5M, ...etc, but in common, more than 2.5M.


Thank you for reading this long article and images.
I can't wait to meet Imperator:rome 2 Tinto talk.

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

Given Ezo’s small population is it expected that Japan will colonize the island(s) almost immediately? If not, what’s stopping them?

 

[Idle America]

EUV got a Korea update before EU4.

 

[viola]

China: Buddhism, Taoism, Folk Religions and Confucianism mixed, okay that's Mahayana

Korea: Muism, Buddhism, Confucianism mixed, okay that's Mahayana

Vietnam: Folk Religions, Buddhism, some Confucianism mixed, okay that's Mahayana

Japan: Kami Worship and Buddhism mixed, somehow that is Shinto.

Makes no sense whatsoever, so inconsistent. Wouldn't make sense to remove Shinto but please give China, Vietnam and Korea their own religions. You can finally name them without thinking for months too! Just call it Sanjiao for example, no issue with Sinocentrism. No valid reason to not do it.

It's definitely weird that they decided to depict as "Buddhist" those countries where Buddhism had a lot of competition and was seldomly, if not frequently, suppressed by the state, while in the country where Buddhism was stronger and had less competition the religion is named only after its Folk Religion.

I feel like there's still a good case to have China, Korea and Vietnam following the same "religion", since all those three countries shared the same heavily sinicized worldview and featured roughly similar internal conflicts between an influential Confucian upper class, a significant Buddhist presence, and various interplay with folk religions and Daoism in China's case, while with Japan the argument could be made that its culture and ethical values were just as heavily influenced by China as Korea and Vietnam, and so they could follow the same religion instead of having their own, but it's also true that in Japan Buddhism was a lot stronger, Confucianism seems to have been a much weaker force due to the strength of the military class, and Daoism is also marginal like in Korea and Vietnam, so the balance of power between religions is quite different in Japan, justifying the depiction of "Shinto" or "Shinto-Buddhism" as its own thing, even if strongly related to Chinese ethics.

 

[Mef]

View attachment 1207314

Are these resource maps for the period or modern day? If it's modern day, then I guess some of the distribution was based on this (such as iron for example), which explains why it doesn't really line up with historical mines that existed when Korea first industrialized, which I posted earlier.
What do the different iron colors mean?

 

[Berria]

According to the National Institute of Korean History's Population) and Agricultural Labour Force of Joseon Dynasty Page, which is the next dynasty of Korea after Goryeo with almost the same territories, the population of 1392 was around 5,550,000~7,500,000, and the population growth rate was around 0.47% if it is 5,550,000, and 0.15%~0.25% if it is 7,500,000

...Before examining the class composition of peasants in the Joseon Dynasty, it is necessary to understand the population and agricultural labour force of this period. First, there are studies that estimate the population of the early Joseon Dynasty (1392) to be around 5.55 million people, and the population growth rate of the Joseon Dynasty to be around 0.47%, a figure that is unusually high for a pre-modern society. In comparison, a recent study estimated that the population in 1392 was approximately 7.5 million, and that this population increased to 10.12 million by the 25th year of Seonjo (1592), suggesting a growth rate of 0.15 to 0.2 per cent...


If we calculate this for 1337, we can get an estimate of 4,288,356~6,906,512 which is almost double of current map.

 

[freeloquats]

I'm sorry, what?????

So it's called Shinto (for, uh, reasons) but treated as a form of Buddhism in-game? Scratching my head over this one.

 

[minghunag]

So does Japan in PC have more locations or in Sengoku?在PC游戏中，日本的地点更多还是在《三国志》中更多？

should be EU5

 

[LAF1994]

China: Buddhism, Taoism, Folk Religions and Confucianism mixed, okay that's Mahayana

Korea: Muism, Buddhism, Confucianism mixed, okay that's Mahayana

Vietnam: Folk Religions, Buddhism, some Confucianism mixed, okay that's Mahayana

Japan: Kami Worship and Buddhism mixed, somehow that is Shinto.

Makes no sense whatsoever, so inconsistent. Wouldn't make sense to remove Shinto but please give China, Vietnam and Korea their own religions. You can finally name them without thinking for months too! Just call it Sanjiao for example, no issue with Sinocentrism. No valid reason to not do it.

The biggest problem is that Paradox's 'one religion only at a time' model isn't a good fit outside of the context of Christianity or Islam (which have explicitly exclusionary confessions of faith, which Buddhism and Confucianism do not).
A similar problem applies in Imperator, but that's a different issue.

 

[Üsmenschi]

The biggest problem is that Paradox's 'one religion only at a time' model isn't a good fit outside of the context of Christianity or Islam (which have explicitly exclusionary confessions of faith, which Buddhism and Confucianism do not).
A similar problem applies in Imperator, but that's a different issue.

Johan in the first Tinto talks said - "features should be believable and plausible, and avoid abstraction unless necessary.", but at the same time constructs like Shinto-Buddhism in Japan and Folkreligion-Confucianism-Buddhism-Taoism in China arise.

 

[ValhallArchitect]

Are extraterritorial countries daimyo playable ? How do they get new territories ? Can they interact diplomatically, militarily, apart from pleding allegiance to X or Y ?

 

[Ispil]

Are extraterritorial countries daimyo playable ? How do they get new territories ? Can they interact diplomatically, militarily, apart from pleding allegiance to X or Y ?

They're playable, and in terms of "country" mechanics, they're a country like any other. They just don't own land, only buildings.