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Tinto Maps #24 - 25th of October - Japan and Korea

Hello and welcome once more to another week of Tinto Maps. This week we are going to the lands even further to the East and taking a look at Korea and Japan. So, without further ado, let’s get started.

Countries
Countries.png
Colored wastelands.png

Korea during the Goryeo dynasty was under the orbit of Yuán, and had very close ties with it, with the Yuán emperors taking Korean wives. The north, though, and also Tamna in the Jeju island wouldn’t be unified under Korea until the following Joseon dynasty, so they are still separated although all of them also under Yuán. On the other side, Japan starts in a very interesting situation. After a failed attempt to overthrow the shogunate and restore imperial power during the Kenmu restoration, one of the generals that contributed to such restoration, Ashikaga Takauji, in the end established his own shogunate in 1336 (just before the start of the game). The emperor had then to flee the capital and thus we start with the period of the Northern and Southern Courts, with two opposing Emperors and the shogun fighting for legitimacy. So, although it appears unified at first glance, Japan hides many internal divisions within (more on that later). Further South, the kingdom of Ryūkyū is not yet unified, so the three mountain kingdoms of Hokuzan, Chūzan and Nanzan vie for supremacy over the island.

Societies of pops
Societies of Pops.png

Basically already shown in the Manchuria Tinto Maps, but they need to be shown here too, especially the Ainu.

Dynasties
Dynasties.png

Dynasties zoom.png
As it happens in China, the “Goryeo dynasty” name is actually not the name of the dynasty itself, which is actually the house of Wang.

Locations
Locations.png

Locations zoom 1.png
Locations zoom 2.png
Locations zoom 3.png
Locations zoom 4.png
Locations zoom 5.png
Locations zoom 6.png
Locations zoom 7.png
Locations zoom 8.png

Provinces
Provinces.png

Provinces zoom 1.png
Provinces zoom 2.png
Provinces zoom 3.png
Provinces zoom 4.png
Provinces zoom 5.png
Provinces zoom 6.png
Here (as well as with the areas next) we have tried to follow the administrative division of both countries in period, but we’ve had to make some adjustments. In Korea, we had to account for the fact that historically, almost immediately after the start of the game the Josen dynasty took over and the administrative divisions are somewhat different, so we’ve adjusted them together (and had to divide some of the bigger provinces for gameplay reasons). In Japan, the administrative divisions remained virtually unchanged since the establishment of the Ritsuryō system in the 7-8th century until after the Meiji restoration in 1868. However, we still had to make some adjustments, and the smaller ones had to unfortunately disappear.

Areas
Areas.png


Terrain
Topography.png
Vegetation.png
Climate.png

Very mountainous and forested areas both, so the few plains have to be taken the most advantage of.

Development
Development.png

Not bad developed areas, but obviously development decreases the further north it goes.

Natural Harbors
Natural Harbors.png


Cultures
Cultures.png

Korea is mainly Korean, and Japan has been divided into four main groups. Besides this, we also have Ainu in the north, Jeju in Jeju island and Ryūkyū in the Ryūkyū islands.

Religions
Religions.png

Korea has the same (name pending) religion as China while Japan is Shintō. I must say that this Shintō is not at all considered to be a Kami-exclusively-oriented Shintō nor the post-Meiji State Shintō in any shape or form. In all effects, it is considered under the Buddhism umbrella and it is treated as Buddhist Shintō, while of course including some different mechanics and references to the Kami too. The name Shintō was chosen basically because it’s more recognizable and identifiable with Japan. Besides this, there’s also the Ainu religion for the Ainu, and the Utaki religion for the Ryūkyū.

Raw Materials
Raw Materials.png

Raw Materials zoom 1.png
Raw Materials zoom 2.png
Raw Materials zoom 3.png
Raw Materials zoom 4.png
Raw Materials zoom 5.png
Not bad areas for resources, and plenty of rice and fish in Japan to get good sushi. The more observant of you will see that the resources of Hokkaido have already been adjusted thanks to feedback from the previous Manchuria Tinto Maps.

Markets
Markets.png

Some may find surprising the presence of Izumi as a Market in Japan, but it is the area that served as the main point of entrance for commerce into central Japan, where the merchant town of Sakai developed, until later Osaka developed under Toyotomi and basically took over that function.

Population
Population.png

Population zoom 1.png
Population zoom 2.png
Population zoom 3.png
Population zoom 4.png
Population zoom 5.png
Population zoom 6.png
Population zoom 7.png
Not much to say here, except that quite a bit of population waiting for some action.

Extraterritorial Countries
Extraterritorial Countries.png

Extraterritorial Countries zoom 1.png
Extraterritorial Countries zoom 2.png
Extraterritorial Countries zoom 3.png
I’m sure many of you were waiting for this. The samurai clans in Japan are represented as Extraterritorial Countries, and we have tried to be as close as possible to their distribution of territory in 1337. As you can imagine, that is not an easy task, and some more tweaking is needed, so if you have any feedback or extra info on that regard it would be much appreciated. Unfortunately, there’s some overlapping of some clans on the same territory and only one name can be shown at a time, so not all names are visible (the Oda clan is still there, I promise), but there are a total of 143 clans (not counting Ashikaga), plus two extra for each of the imperial courts that are present at start. Related to this, each clan will pledge its allegiance to either the northern or the southern court, mainly based on their historical allegiances but allowing a bit of leeway (and those allegiances don’t necessarily have to be permanent). So, as a bit of an extra tease, these are the allegiances of the clans at start (yellow are the north court supporters, blue are the southern court ones, and again keep in mind that only one color can be present even if there’s more than one clan with different allegiances in the same location)
Nanbokuchou.png

And that is all for today. Next week there will not be any Tinto Maps due to being a bank holiday, so next one will be in two weeks for a look further south into South East Asia. See you there.
 
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How would you be able to model active religious strife between these different elements in a world where they're all considered simply the same religion?
Ideally with unique mechanics for that religion, meant to portray exactly how at times the different religious and philosophical schools were in balance while in other periods were in strife and suppressing each others, and the government would decide who to favour and how much over the others. Korea would be an example of what would happen when a single branch (Neo-Confucianism) completely overtakes the government and suppresses the rest (and maybe it could be represented as the country converting to Confucianism alone, leaving the syncretic religion to be suppressed?).

Again, there's been a lot of discussion about this. Korea and its beheaded Buddhas were brought up a major example of why the present "Mahayana" name just doesn't work.
 
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Will you add an event were Christianity starts to show up in Japan and Korea. South Korea has a lot of Christians there
I am not against such an event, but the bulk of Korean Christians are recent converts after the game's timeframe converted by Western Protestant missionaries
 
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Sure, that might be the case, but the leaders viewpoints do seem rather important in a game where you have an outright 'official' religion.
Yes, but in the new game the state religion is only half the story. There are pops, and while areas have their plurality show up on the map, minorities also exist.

So either you represent pops as uniformly being one thing, or as having distinct, separate communities. This is why the solution appears to be making religion uniform but having mechanics so that the government can favor Buddhist, Confucian or native beliefs for example (and similar ideas in the rest of East Asia).
 
Maybe in locations where more than one extraterritorial country is present, there could be white dashed lines (like the centers of trade) displayed in that map mode.
I was thinking maybe they could show a building icon on the political map. Putting your mouse over it would highlight the locations they are present in and have a tooltip showing the name of the extraterritorial country. Also if you click on it it'll show the diplomacy screen. They could probably only show up when zoomed in though. Maybe they could make it a toggle whether the icons show up on the political map or not. Could work for other types of nonterritorial countries like maybe with army based countries they could have a soldier and an SoP could have a human or group of humans. Could be a universal/generic icon or they could make customized icons for specific ones or they could have both a generic icon and specialized icons for more important nonterritorial countries. I'm just spitballing here.
 
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It makes more sense for Japan to be monolithically Buddhist than for any of those other three to be, since it was more or less the only organized religion in Japan throughout the entirety of the game's timeline, while in the other countries Confucianism and Daoism were very influential and had periods of vogue.

Another thing to consider is the name for Lewchewan Shinto, isn't "Utaki" just the name of their shrines?
Some scholars use Utaki religion as a name for Ryukyuan religion/shinto and that's likely the sole reason why they're using it, it gives an air of authority. Personally I'd prefer Shiji (ability to connect with kami) or Kaminchu (collective name for shamans, priestesses and other religious figures) as they are terms that encompass the religion in my personal opinion better than the Utaki shrines, but Paradox almost certainly prefers the one with scholarly authority. At least, I do like that they dropped the redundant 'religion' ending with all the formerly animistic religions. They should do that with the [ethnic group] shamanism ones too.
 
About NIppon:
The merged Ryōseikoku(令制国) of Japan: Iki, Tama, Awaji, Izumi, Kawachi, Iga, Shima, Suwa, and Awa. Except for Tama and Suwa, which were short-lived 令制国 in history, the others were all normal 令制国. In addition, the enclaves of Towada around the northwest corner of Chūgoku region were assigned to Mutsu.

About Goryeo:
The division system used in game was the 23 provinces system, which was only implemented for one year in the later period of the Kingdom of Korea. Previously, it was the eight provinces system, and later it was the thirteen provinces system. I don't understand why this division was used. Because there are many conflicts between this division and the eight provinces and thirteen provinces, and the eight provinces are ancient divisions in Korea, the thirteen provinces are divisions that have been in use since the beginning of the Korean Empire, while the twenty-three provinces were abolished after only one year. Is this because more provinces can be divided?

I hope Japanese and Korean guys and others can provide more picture materials, because I am currently busy with other things……(yes, it's Chinese map)
 
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About NIppon:
The merged Ryōseikoku(令制国) of Japan: Iki, Tama, Awaji, Izumi, Kawachi, Iga, Shima, Suwa, and Awa. Except for Tama and Suwa, which were short-lived 令制国 in history, the others were all normal 令制国. In addition, the enclaves of Towada around the northwest corner of Chūgoku region were assigned to Mutsu.

About Goryeo:
The division system used in game was the 23 provinces system, which was only implemented for one year in the later period of the Kingdom of Korea. Previously, it was the eight provinces system, and later it was the thirteen provinces system. I don't understand why this division was used. Because there are many conflicts between this division and the eight provinces and thirteen provinces, and the eight provinces are ancient divisions in Korea, the thirteen provinces are divisions that have been in use since the beginning of the Korean Empire, while the twenty-three provinces were abolished after only one year. Is this because more provinces can be divided?

I hope Japanese and Korean guys and others can provide more picture materials, because I am currently busy with other things……(yes, it's Chinese map)
For the provinces, it's just a matter of provinces in Project Caesar being extremely small. Many of the provinces around the map are about the size of provinces in EU4, despite having 4-6 locations within them sometimes. If you look at the Areas map, that's supposed to represent more of the historical province-level divisions for Korea. Though it's not exact, there are eight of them and the names match up to them. A similar thing can be seen with China, where the provinces are way smaller than what we'd consider the "provinces" of china while the Areas represent the actual provinces(though they're a bit frankensteined together).
 
For the provinces, it's just a matter of provinces in Project Caesar being extremely small. Many of the provinces around the map are about the size of provinces in EU4, despite having 4-6 locations within them sometimes. If you look at the Areas map, that's supposed to represent more of the historical province-level divisions for Korea. Though it's not exact, there are eight of them and the names match up to them. A similar thing can be seen with China, where the provinces are way smaller than what we'd consider the "provinces" of china while the Areas represent the actual provinces(though they're a bit frankensteined together).
Yes, I know that. I think the reason of "it's not exact" is that the dev team uses 23 provinces system or other things.
 
Hello and welcome once more to another week of Tinto Maps. This week we are going to the lands even further to the East and taking a look at Korea and Japan. So, without further ado, let’s get started.

Countries
View attachment 1204594View attachment 1204595
Korea during the Goryeo dynasty was under the orbit of Yuán, and had very close ties with it, with the Yuán emperors taking Korean wives. The north, though, and also Tamna in the Jeju island wouldn’t be unified under Korea until the following Joseon dynasty, so they are still separated although all of them also under Yuán. On the other side, Japan starts in a very interesting situation. After a failed attempt to overthrow the shogunate and restore imperial power during the Kenmu restoration, one of the generals that contributed to such restoration, Ashikaga Takauji, in the end established his own shogunate in 1336 (just before the start of the game). The emperor had then to flee the capital and thus we start with the period of the Northern and Southern Courts, with two opposing Emperors and the shogun fighting for legitimacy. So, although it appears unified at first glance, Japan hides many internal divisions within (more on that later). Further South, the kingdom of Ryūkyū is not yet unified, so the three mountain kingdoms of Hokuzan, Chūzan and Nanzan vie for supremacy over the island.

Societies of pops
View attachment 1204596
Basically already shown in the Manchuria Tinto Maps, but they need to be shown here too, especially the Ainu.

Dynasties
View attachment 1204597
As it happens in China, the “Goryeo dynasty” name is actually not the name of the dynasty itself, which is actually the house of Wang.

Locations
View attachment 1204599

Provinces
View attachment 1204608
Here (as well as with the areas next) we have tried to follow the administrative division of both countries in period, but we’ve had to make some adjustments. In Korea, we had to account for the fact that historically, almost immediately after the start of the game the Josen dynasty took over and the administrative divisions are somewhat different, so we’ve adjusted them together (and had to divide some of the bigger provinces for gameplay reasons). In Japan, the administrative divisions remained virtually unchanged since the establishment of the Ritsuryō system in the 7-8th century until after the Meiji restoration in 1868. However, we still had to make some adjustments, and the smaller ones had to unfortunately disappear.

Areas
View attachment 1204615

Terrain
View attachment 1204616View attachment 1204617View attachment 1204618
Very mountainous and forested areas both, so the few plains have to be taken the most advantage of.

Development
View attachment 1204619
Not bad developed areas, but obviously development decreases the further north it goes.

Natural Harbors
View attachment 1204620

Cultures
View attachment 1204621
Korea is mainly Korean, and Japan has been divided into four main groups. Besides this, we also have Ainu in the north, Jeju in Jeju island and Ryūkyū in the Ryūkyū islands.

Religions
View attachment 1204622
Korea has the same (name pending) religion as China while Japan is Shintō. I must say that this Shintō is not at all considered to be a Kami-exclusively-oriented Shintō nor the post-Meiji State Shintō in any shape or form. In all effects, it is considered under the Buddhism umbrella and it is treated as Buddhist Shintō, while of course including some different mechanics and references to the Kami too. The name Shintō was chosen basically because it’s more recognizable and identifiable with Japan. Besides this, there’s also the Ainu religion for the Ainu, and the Utaki religion for the Ryūkyū.

Raw Materials
View attachment 1204623
Not bad areas for resources, and plenty of rice and fish in Japan to get good sushi. The more observant of you will see that the resources of Hokkaido have already been adjusted thanks to feedback from the previous Manchuria Tinto Maps.

Markets
View attachment 1204629
Some may find surprising the presence of Izumi as a Market in Japan, but it is the area that served as the main point of entrance for commerce into central Japan, where the merchant town of Sakai developed, until later Osaka developed under Toyotomi and basically took over that function.

Population
View attachment 1204630
Not much to say here, except that quite a bit of population waiting for some action.

Extraterritorial Countries
View attachment 1204638
I’m sure many of you were waiting for this. The samurai clans in Japan are represented as Extraterritorial Countries, and we have tried to be as close as possible to their distribution of territory in 1337. As you can imagine, that is not an easy task, and some more tweaking is needed, so if you have any feedback or extra info on that regard it would be much appreciated. Unfortunately, there’s some overlapping of some clans on the same territory and only one name can be shown at a time, so not all names are visible (the Oda clan is still there, I promise), but there are a total of 143 clans (not counting Ashikaga), plus two extra for each of the imperial courts that are present at start. Related to this, each clan will pledge its allegiance to either the northern or the southern court, mainly based on their historical allegiances but allowing a bit of leeway (and those allegiances don’t necessarily have to be permanent). So, as a bit of an extra tease, these are the allegiances of the clans at start (yellow are the north court supporters, blue are the southern court ones, and again keep in mind that only one color can be present even if there’s more than one clan with different allegiances in the same location)

And that is all for today. Next week I’ll pass the baton back to @Pavia for a look further south into South East Asia. See you there.
Still very bummed that so many religions are getting mashed together under “East Asian syncretism” or whatever. But otherwise, this is stunning!
 
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Why is the area of modern-day Vladivostok such a good port? Looking at the shade of green, it appears to be superior to Dalian (Lushun), which is definitely not the case; they are equal in most aspects, except that Vladivostok freezes over in winter, while Dalian do not. This clearly indicates that Vladivostok should not be such a good port.
 
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Why is the area of modern-day Vladivostok such a good port? Looking at the shade of green, it appears to be superior to Dalian (Lushun), which is definitely not the case; they are equal in most aspects, except that Vladivostok freezes over in winter, while Dalian do not. This clearly indicates that Vladivostok should not be such a good port.
I'm pretty sure they've already established that a port freezing over does not effect whether it's a natural harbor. Dalian will be inherently superior to Vladivostok since we know that ports freezing over is something that is actually modeled, but natural harbor just reflects how good its geography is. Vladivostok will still lose out by virtue of it freezing.
 
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Still very bummed that so many religions are getting mashed together under “East Asian syncretism” or whatever. But otherwise, this is stunning!
Unless pops can become able to follow more than one religion at a time it's hard to represent the situation in any other way though.
 
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Unless pops can become able to follow more than one religion at a time it's hard to represent the situation in any other way though.

I do feel like it could be managed by just having the separate faiths, with culture, laws, or some other mechanic handling the syncretic nature of them. It's not perfect either, but it solves the problem with naming and the fact that some of faiths were favoured over others at times. Also, it's probably already been represented like this in other regions which had syncretic beliefs, after all it's not really unique to east Asia.
 
Korea has the same (name pending) religion as China while Japan is Shintō. I must say that this Shintō is not at all considered to be a Kami-exclusively-oriented Shintō nor the post-Meiji State Shintō in any shape or form. In all effects, it is considered under the Buddhism umbrella and it is treated as Buddhist Shintō, while of course including some different mechanics and references to the Kami too. The name Shintō was chosen basically because it’s more recognizable and identifiable with Japan. Besides this, there’s also the Ainu religion for the Ainu, and the Utaki religion for the Ryūkyū.
"more recognizable and identifiable with Japan"

Maybe they should have anime portraits too?
 
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Hi i am New to this tinto talk think because of that if i did somthng wrong forgive me (writing down a difderent topic honestly i cant final where to write) my question is how can i defaatle byzabtium as ottomans why i ask this because like in varna turks didnt ein with quantity or i dont know how is called in english literature but in turkish we call as şebeş war austriajs killer themselves because of getting drunk etc. This little things affected the Ottomans rise Will we get this kind of events or how Will you provide us to win over quality