Tinto Maps #24 - 25th of October - Japan and Korea

[SchwarzKatze]

Also, another reminder, we are not looking for names of counties but the names of the seats. We want locations to be named after locations not after areas as it was in EU4.

Hi, does this principle apply to Japan? Because at a glance a large number of the locations are the names of kōri, second level administrative divisions, not settlements

For example,

In the far left, there's "Izumo". This is fine as it's one of the rare example of "Izumo kuni" -> "Izumo kōri" -> "Izumo sato", the same name is used from the largest administrative to the individual settlement, but next to it is "Ou"

意宇郡 - Wikipedia

ja.wikipedia.org

A quick check of Ou shows that there has been no settlement bearing the same name, and the seat was located in Yamashiro (山代)

Next, looking at the bottom left for "Iyo":
First things first, Iyo kōri is not where it is on the map. It is entirely (or >95%, can't tell from the fuzzy borders) within "Ukena". What's labelled as "Iyo" seems to be the combination of modern Matsuyama City and Tōon City.
And similarly, there was no settlement named "Iyo". It was founded in 1955 from the merger of Gunchū (lit. "Middle of the Kōri") with surrounding villages.

Moving on the Kyushu

And you can see a lot of places prefixed with "Nishi-" and "Higashi-", lit. "West-" and "East-". These are kōri split during Meiji era, and also obviously not named after their seats.

I do NOT want you to change all these kōri names to some obscure or generic sounding seat settlement name. Instead I want you to understand that in East Asia, the absolute smallest unit settlement name for county/districts are often obscure or just generic compared to the county/district's name, which is the one in frequent use, and should be the one shown on maps.

 

[Unbidregent]

Maybe in locations where more than one extraterritorial country is present, there could be white dashed lines (like the centers of trade) displayed in that map mode.

 

[Admiral Boysen]

Why is the Japanese market centre of Izumi not highlighted with stripes in the market map mode?

 

[Cardozinha]

Does Korea have any events related to adopting Hangul?

 

[minghunag]

France: I'm supposed to be the main character, but how come he has a smaller area and yet more locations than me?

 

[ariella0090]

Hello, I'm very happy whenever you reveal information about the game I'm looking forward to
I have two suggestions for feedback related to Goryeo

1. During the Goryeo Dynasty, Seogyeong西京(Pyongyang) had so much development that it was considered the second capital. As Seogyeong was the capital of the old Goguryeo kingdom and an important key point in keeping the nomadic peoples of the north in check, there were palaces as well. Donggyeong東京(Gyeongju) was developed a lot as it was the capital of the very former dynasty, and Namgyeong南京(Seoul) was developed in the last half of the Goryeo Dynasty. These three cities (Seogyeong, Donggyeong, and Namgyeong) are called the Samgyeong of Goryeo(高麗三京) and should be highly developed. However, the development of Seogyeong and Donggyeong(Gyeongju) in the data seems to be much lower than that of Namgyeong

2. Unlike Joseon in the EU4, Goryeo was very active in utilizing sea routes for trade. Byeokrando(碧瀾渡) was close to Kaesong, the capital city of Goryeo at the time (which was included in Kaesong in the data), and it became a center of trade during the Goryeo Dynasty as the water was deep enough to allow large and small ships to freely travel by using the currents. Trade here was so active that Korea's English name, Korea (Goryeo), was widely spread as an international trading port that traded not only with China and Japan but also with Vietnam, Thailand, India, and Arabia. However, if you look at the data (natural harbors), Kaesong's natural harbors level seems low, so it should be increased

 

[honkajoki]

the three mountain kingdoms of Hokuzan, Chūzan and Nanzan vie for supremacy over the island.

Achivement, The Three Mountains. Start as Hokuzan, Chuzan or Nanzan and unify Ruykuy.

For those of us who can't get the similarly named achievement in EU4.

 

[Dsingis]

Each country has power over what they want to do with their beliefs, so if you unify all Japan then you will have the power to influence all Shinto.

1. For all religions, in the sense that each country decides what's happening on the religion inside the country.
2. SoPs are not extraterritorial countries, but they can also settle.

Am I understanding you correctly, that you are hinting at a religious system, in which each country can specifically influence the religion in it's own border in what exactly we believe etc. meaning it can be changed by the government? So if I were a catholic country, and I decide "to hell with the Pope" I could break away and create a pope-less catholicism?

 

[Pelthis]

Overall I like what I see. I'm not an expert so I can't deeply comment on the topic nor provide academic sources, but as I travelled the area, visited some places and spoke to locals, I know the Seto inland sea had a lot of piracy issues during PC time frame and even the smallest inhabited fishermen islands had some kind of overseeing structures to assert control on the area. So I know most of them are too small pixel-wise to be included on the map, but I hope there will be something to represent such situations.
Also maybe there could be a case for representing Shodoshima as a location ? The biggest island of the area where some important stone quarries were located.

Anyway hyped to see what comes next !

 

[AHumpierRogue]

Hi, does this principle apply to Japan? Because at a glance a large number of the locations are the names of kōri, second level administrative divisions, not settlements

For example,

In the far left, there's "Izumo". This is fine as it's one of the rare example of "Izumo kuni" -> "Izumo kōri" -> "Izumo sato", the same name is used from the largest administrative to the individual settlement, but next to it is "Ou"

意宇郡 - Wikipedia

ja.wikipedia.org

A quick check of Ou shows that there has been no settlement bearing the same name, and the seat was located in Yamashiro (山代)

Next, looking at the bottom left for "Iyo":
First things first, Iyo kōri is not where it is on the map. It is entirely (or >95%, can't tell from the fuzzy borders) within "Ukena". What's labelled as "Iyo" seems to be the combination of modern Matsuyama City and Tōon City.
And similarly, there was no settlement named "Iyo". It was founded in 1955 from the merger of Gunchū (lit. "Middle of the Kōri") with surrounding villages.

Moving on the Kyushu

And you can see a lot of places prefixed with "Nishi-" and "Higashi-", lit. "West-" and "East-". These are kōri split during Meiji era, and also obviously not named after their seats.

I do NOT want you to change all these kōri names to some obscure or generic sounding seat settlement name. Instead I want you to understand that in East Asia, the absolute smallest unit settlement name for county/districts are often obscure or just generic compared to the county/district's name, which is the one in frequent use, and should be the one shown on maps.

Agreed. Very, very much hope they back down on this and name them the names people are actually familiar with.

 

[viola]

Johan in the first Tinto talks said - "features should be believable and plausible, and avoid abstraction unless necessary.", but at the same time constructs like Shinto-Buddhism in Japan and Folkreligion-Confucianism-Buddhism-Taoism in China arise.

I mean, that's no abstraction. Those religions/ethic systems were followed usually at the same time and usually by the same people, making any attempt at separating them between distinct religious communities an impossibility. In Japan I know that Buddhist temples integrated kami worship and viceversa for Shinto shrines having their Buddhist areas, they got that much intertwined.

 

[Pescavelho]

China: Buddhism, Taoism, Folk Religions and Confucianism mixed, okay that's Mahayana

Korea: Muism, Buddhism, Confucianism mixed, okay that's Mahayana

Vietnam: Folk Religions, Buddhism, some Confucianism mixed, okay that's Mahayana

Japan: Kami Worship and Buddhism mixed, somehow that is Shinto.

Makes no sense whatsoever, so inconsistent. Wouldn't make sense to remove Shinto but please give China, Vietnam and Korea their own religions. You can finally name them without thinking for months too! Just call it Sanjiao for example, no issue with Sinocentrism. No valid reason to not do it.

It makes more sense for Japan to be monolithically Buddhist than for any of those other three to be, since it was more or less the only organized religion in Japan throughout the entirety of the game's timeline, while in the other countries Confucianism and Daoism were very influential and had periods of vogue.

Another thing to consider is the name for Lewchewan Shinto, isn't "Utaki" just the name of their shrines?

 

[Üsmenschi]

I mean, that's no abstraction. Those religions/ethic systems were followed usually at the same time and usually by the same people, making any attempt at separating them between distinct religious communities an impossibility. In Japan I know that Buddhist temples integrated kami worship and viceversa for Shinto shrines having their Buddhist areas, they got that much intertwined.

But this did not prevent the Japanese emperor in the 19th century from starting the process of separating Shintoism from Buddhism, but due to the fact that the religion is one, I most likely will not be able to do this (a century earlier, for example), I hope they will reflect in some way the syncretism of Buddhism and Shintoism. + it is very strange to see that the same Korea is united with the religion of China, but Japan is not, although in Korea, as in Japan, there is a folk religion and by the same logic they should have created their own "Shinto-Buddhism"

 

[Stami]

Will Nagasaki/Dejima exist as a building in Nishisonogi?

 

[sillycatwarlord07]

Will you add an event were Christianity starts to show up in Japan and Korea. South Korea has a lot of Christians there

 

[Galadredid]

If I understand correctly, Extraterritorial Counties is related to pop rather than land? However, the power of Japanese clans is reflected in the control of land, and this mechanism should be given to the tribes under the Mongol Empire rather than to the Japanese daimyo.

They are intended to represent owning certain buildings in an area but not the land itself.

In the Sengoku period and thereafter yes, coans controlled land as a fiefdom, but in 1337 this was not the case. In theory all land belonged to the government but for many centuries the de facto system was that nobles had private estates and would get sent profits.

Since the owners of these estates spent all their time in Kyoto (or Kamakura, during the first shogunate) the samurai's role was to be a security force who actually patrolled the estates. There were no daimyos proper yet in the samurai class, there were jito (hereditary stewards) and shugo (military governors).

Now, this system was changing since the Mongol invasion but it would only be in the 15th century that clans directly owned domains. The Kamakura period had been much more of a genuinely bilateral government between court nobles and samurai.

 

[Daelyx Len Auphydas]

Why is all of korean religion lumped under buddhism? It was actively suppressed for most of this period by the Joseon dynasty.

"in Joseon, Buddhism was considered a false philosophy and the monks were viewed as corrupted by power and money."

"Taejong promoted Confucianism as the state ideology, thus demoting Buddhism, which consequently never recovered the glory and great power it had enjoyed during the Goryeo period. He closed many Buddhist temples; their vast possessions were seized and added to the national treasury. "

Isn't thats like making a crusader state be islamic just because islam was a popular religion among the peasantry in the region?

I get that they were buddhist predominantly at the very start of the dynasty and so for the first few decades of the game thats reasonable, but there should definitely at least be the option to adopt a different religion as korea.

Really just in general, why has all of east asia been reduced to just "buddhist"? There were plenty of other religions there, I understand buddhism was dominant but its so unnecessarily limiting to make it the only option when the other religions in the area were still quite intact. Why can't you play korea or japan or china as any of their native religions? Even if they werent dominant at the very start of the game, multiple of them rose to predominance after the fact.

Guess the only east asian option open to me if I want to not be buddhist is Ryukyu. Sigh...

If nothing else, folk religions should at least exist as minorities so if you tried really hard you could promote them to predominance. Korean shamanism was still quite prevalent during this period, as was kami worship in japan. One of those at least managed to reach dominance in their native country (even if it was after this games timeframe), so it should be clear that folk religions could manifest as direct competitors to more mainstream buddhist ideology in those nations. There was some measure of civil strife between folk religions and buddhism as well; how would you show that conflict in a world where they're all just lumped together into one primarily buddhist religion?

Just feels very disappointing.

 

[viola]

Why is all of korean religion lumped under buddhism? It was actively suppressed for most of this period by the Joseon dynasty.

"in Joseon, Buddhism was considered a false philosophy and the monks were viewed as corrupted by power and money."

"Taejong promoted Confucianism as the state ideology, thus demoting Buddhism, which consequently never recovered the glory and great power it had enjoyed during the Goryeo period. He closed many Buddhist temples; their vast possessions were seized and added to the national treasury. "

Isn't thats like making a crusader state be islamic just because islam was a popular religion among the peasantry in the region?

I get that they were buddhist predominantly at the very start of the dynasty and so for the first few decades of the game thats reasonable, but there should definitely at least be the option to adopt a different religion as korea.

Really just in general, why has all of east asia been reduced to just "buddhist"? There were plenty of other religions there, I understand buddhism was dominant but its so unnecessarily limiting to make it the only option when the other religions in the area were still quite intact. Why can't you play korea or japan or china as any of their native religions? Even if they werent dominant at the very start of the game, multiple of them rose to predominance after the fact.

Guess the only east asian option open to me if I want to not be buddhist is Ryukyu. Sigh...

If nothing else, folk religions should at least exist as minorities so if you tried really hard you could promote them to predominance. Korean shamanism was still quite prevalent during this period, as was kami worship in japan. One of those at least managed to reach dominance in their native country (even if it was after this games timeframe), so it should be clear that folk religions could manifest as direct competitors to more mainstream buddhist ideology in those nations. There was some measure of civil strife between folk religions and buddhism as well; how would you show that conflict in a world where they're all just lumped together into one primarily buddhist religion?

Just feels very disappointing.

There's been a lot of discussion about East Asian religion and what name to give it, I suggest you to check the China map dev diary where the devs themselves talk about it, and also some of the threads that were made in the forums on the topic. If you can't find them I can try looking for them myself.

In short, the devs themselves have explained that "Mahayana" isn't supposed to represent a monolithic Buddhist population, but rather the combination of Mahayana Buddhism, Confucianism, Daoism, and so on. It's just that they very confusingly named the whole thing after Buddhism, which the majority in the forums also thought was wrong. Having a big syncretic faith for East Asia makes sense because practically speaking the various religious schools in East Asia were followed together by the same people, and dividing the population between those who are Buddhist, those who are Confucian and so on is impossible and makes no sense, but it seems there's a major issue with nomenclature right now.

 

[Daelyx Len Auphydas]

There's been a lot of discussion about East Asian religion and what name to give it, I suggest you to check the China map dev diary where the devs themselves talk about it, and also some of the threads that were made in the forums on the topic. If you can't find them I can try looking for them myself.

In short, the devs themselves have explained that "Mahayana" isn't supposed to represent a monolithic Buddhist population, but rather the combination of Mahayana Buddhism, Confucianism, Daoism, and so on. It's just that they very confusingly named the whole thing after Buddhism, which the majority in the forums also thought was wrong. Having a big syncretic faith for East Asia makes sense because practically speaking the various religious schools in East Asia were followed together by the same people, and dividing the population between those who are Buddhist, those who are Confucian and so on is impossible and makes no sense, but it seems there's a major issue with nomenclature right now.

I understand the intention, its just rather implausible for a country which was actively seeing religious strife between the different groups that were supposedly making up this 'syncretic' faith. It might be fair in japan and china to a certain extent, but in korea there was active conflict between neo-confucian and buddhist elements. In other words they werent necessarily being followed by the same people. How would you be able to model active religious strife between these different elements in a world where they're all considered simply the same religion?

Personally I think there needs to be a more robust system for syncretism here. Maybe something along the lines of harmonization from EU4, but on a larger scale; perhaps eastern religions could have a 'dual-religion' system whereby two religions are practiced simultaneously? That would at least leave the door open for countries where it was historically more divisive such as korea to actively promote one religion over another.

For that matter, korean shamanism has always remained rather distinct from either neo confucian or buddhist practitioners rather than becoming syncretically tied to them. That tends to be the result when a religion is actively looked down upon by other religions, it makes it less likely to syncretize.

I can see the argument in china and japan even if I dont agree with it, but I simply cant see a world where you could lump all of korean religion into the same category. As far as I can see, that would be like lumping islam and christianity into the same bracket. I'm sure some people at some point syncretized those religions but it was not the norm and conflict between them (even if mostly non-violent in Korea's case, it was still conflict) absolutely played a significant role in korean politics.

 

[Galadredid]

In other words they werent necessarily being followed by the same people.

The issue is 'what people'. Leaders, absolutely, but this usually didn't spill over into sectarian communities forming. In Korea, for example, even when Buddhism was frowned on, people wouldn't really say that neighbors who kept on giving alms to monks had a fundamentally different worldview or position in society.

I'm currently reading the novel Pachinko, for example, where the non-Christian Korean characters carry out Confucian-based ancestral rituals, visit Mu-ist shamans for certain matters like fertility. Some are stingy with alms to monks but know their neighbors would have different opinions. It's a great look at life in that society but its richness couldn't well be represented as a value a pop either is or is not.