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Tinto Maps #3 - 24th of May 2024 - France

Greetings, and welcome to the third Tinto Maps! Last week we received a great amount of feedback regarding Iberia, which we’re working on, and this week we also reworked the map of the Low Countries, which we’ll show soon.

For this week, we’ll be taking a look at France, up until its current modern borders (which you’ll notice are quite different from the 1337 borders):

Countries:
Countries.png

When portraying the political situation of France in 1337, we had a few options. On one extreme, we could make it a ‘centralized monarchy’, like England or the Iberian ones, but with a much lower degree of control over its territories. Conversely, we could have a ‘French Crown’ IO, similar to the HRE. We decided to go with the middle term, which represents the French Crown lands with the country of France, and its networks of appanages and vassals as different subjects. We think that this way we can portray the progressive centralization of the crown under the reigns of Philip II, Louis IX, and Philip IV, while also portraying the powerful jurisdictional powers of the French feuds. We have two types of subjects in France, by the way: vassals, which represent the regular fief mouvants, and appanages, which were the feuds granted to members of the royal family, that could eventually revert to the French Crown.

You may also notice that there might be a problem incoming related to a couple of English possessions in the mainland, the County of Ponthieu, and, especially, the Duchy of Aquitaine, as well as the Channel Islands of Jersey and Guernsey which comprise a dangerously close non-core location of England (they aren’t big enough to be a worthwhile subject country, even if that might be a more accurate representation).


Locations:
Locations.png

An interesting distribution of locations. Some names may be a bit long, so, please blame the French, not us, and ask if you want to know which location it is.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We are aware that we have a severe inconsistency here, which is naming the provinces after locations instead of provincial and regional names (we were not very sure about what naming convention to use when we crafted this map). So we would be glad to receive feedback on the names that you think would fit. E.g.: Artois instead of Arras, Anjou instead of Angers, etc.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

We’ll also read your feedback regarding the terrain of France, although we already know of some issues to correct (e.g.: changing the vegetation of the Landes to sparse instead of forests.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

Although there are two big cultural divisions of the French cultures, Langue d’Oil and Langue d’Oc, we think that their regional subdivisions would make the situation more accurate for 1337, where there is a long way until the cultural unification of France.

Religions:
Religion.png

Not a very interesting situation, only 0.80% of the population is of a different religion (Judaism). We haven’t portrayed any Catholic heresy yet, maybe Cathars should still have some room in the Languedoc, as Montaillou, an Occitan Village from 1294 to 1324, points to? Also, while taking this screenshot, we improved the view of this map mode, making it more responsive to zoom levels.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.png

The gold mines in the center of the map are going to die, as they were exploited only in recent times. Which other changes do you suggest?

Markets:
Markets.png

Paris already had replaced the fairs of Champagne as the main trading center of the region, driven by the growth of the crown lands and the royal power in the 13th century. Apart from that, we have the market at Bordeaux in Aquitaine.

Population:
Population.png

Pops with colors.png

Population, and also how it looks with colors when you have the country clicked (Paris, centralizing France since Hugh Capet…).

And that’s all for today! Next week we will move to the North-Eastern part of Europe, as we will take at look at Poland and the Baltic region. Cheers!
 
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Rip independent Flanders, you had a good 2 week run
Well, they weren't independent anyway. But I really hope with the 'international organization' system that was explained earlier, vassalization isn't as set in stone during the 100 years war. Flanders notoriously switched sides to join the side of the English a few times in the 1330s, -40s and -50s.
 
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Johan said rivers are not navigable due to it being unreasonable to have ships of the line fight on rivers. However the presence of the Elbe to Hamburg (11.4m draft) and the Guadalquivir to Seville (7m draft) on the map suggests that some river ports are considered too important. I would like to argue that some rivers could accommodate large ships regardless, like the Mississippi saw naval action with oceangoing ships as far upriver as Vicksburg and the depth of the river is 13.7m to Baton Rouge. (Note that the HMS Victory has a draft of ~8.7m, meaning it can't sail to Seville).

River Loire has a draft of ~6m to Nantes. I think simply relying on the port at Saint-Nazaire (location Guerande) is insufficient due to the population difference given at start (37015 in Guerande and 95925 in Nantes).

Please consider giving Nantes a port, whether that be by extending the coastal sea zone or adding a short river is immaterial.
 
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It's interesting how hard you're leaning on the language-as-culture aspect, to the point of differentiating a "gallo" culture from "breton", which to my mind has never been anything else than a name for a romance language spoken in Brittany. Are there "culture groups" as we know them and will in that case Breton be grouped with Welsh while Gallo is in the broader French group, or will they be grouped together?
 
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Very happy to finally see the map of the future French Empire!
I have a few questions:
- Will France's purchase of Valentinois be represented in the game?
- Would it be possible to have an option that would allow vassals to be exactly the same color as their overlord?
-Would it be possible to have an option that would allow the borders of vassals to be merged with those of their overlord, like Victoria 3?
-Would it be possible to have an option that would allow the borders of the HRE to appear on the map?
Abut the Dauphiné Valentinois, yes, there will be an event about that. About the other graphical options, it's soon to have a proper answer, but we read all this feedback specifically to think about covering these possibilities. ;)
 
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regarding what i assume is a trade route in the upper left hand part of the pic: will passing trade routes have any economic effect on provinces? in other words, will sailors spend any coin in ports of call along the way (i.e. ports next to the sea locations involved), and will caravans / river barges / merchant convoys have any effect on the towns they're passing through?
 
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Can the fish trade good be blue ? I don't think yellow fits it
Oh, we noted that request from last week's Tinto Maps, there might be some changes incoming to raw goods map for the next one. ;)
 
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Will there be incentives to give out new appanages to your sons (or that of a France AI) in the early game, slowing down centralization? Perhaps it's the easiest way to make certain estates happy? After all, the game begins before some of the most important branches had been established like the House of Valois-Burgundy
 
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No cosmopolitan culture in France? Paradox really fell off, they don't even care about realism anymore... Jokes aside, the maps look great and i'm saving my input for regions that i know more about. Looking forward to seeing Poland next week.
 
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Greetings, and welcome to the third Tinto Maps! Last week we received a great amount of feedback regarding Iberia, which we’re working on, and this week we also reworked the map of the Low Countries, which we’ll show soon.

For this week, we’ll be taking a look at France, up until its current modern borders (which you’ll notice are quite different from the 1337 borders):

Countries:
View attachment 1137981
When portraying the political situation of France in 1337, we had a few options. On one extreme, we could make it a ‘centralized monarchy’, like England or the Iberian ones, but with a much lower degree of control over its territories. Conversely, we could have a ‘French Crown’ IO, similar to the HRE. We decided to go with the middle term, which represents the French Crown lands with the country of France, and its networks of appanages and vassals as different subjects. We think that this way we can portray the progressive centralization of the crown under the reigns of Philip II, Louis IX, and Philip IV, while also portraying the powerful jurisdictional powers of the French feuds. We have two types of subjects in France, by the way: vassals, which represent the regular fief mouvants, and appanages, which were the feuds granted to members of the royal family, that could eventually revert to the French Crown.

You may also notice that there might be a problem incoming related to a couple of English possessions in the mainland, the County of Ponthieu, and, especially, the Duchy of Aquitaine, as well as the Channel Islands of Jersey and Guernsey which comprise a dangerously close non-core location of England (they aren’t big enough to be a worthwhile subject country, even if that might be a more accurate representation).


Locations:
View attachment 1137982
An interesting distribution of locations. Some names may be a bit long, so, please blame the French, not us, and ask if you want to know which location it is.

Provinces:
View attachment 1137983
We are aware that we have a severe inconsistency here, which is naming the provinces after locations instead of provincial and regional names (we were not very sure about what naming convention to use when we crafted this map). So we would be glad to receive feedback on the names that you think would fit. E.g.: Artois instead of Arras, Anjou instead of Angers, etc.

Terrain:
View attachment 1137984
View attachment 1137985
View attachment 1137986
We’ll also read your feedback regarding the terrain of France, although we already know of some issues to correct (e.g.: changing the vegetation of the Landes to sparse instead of forests.

Cultures:
View attachment 1137987
Although there are two big cultural divisions of the French cultures, Langue d’Oil and Langue d’Oc, we think that their regional subdivisions would make the situation more accurate for 1337, where there is a long way until the cultural unification of France.

Religions:
View attachment 1137991
Not a very interesting situation, only 0.80% of the population is of a different religion (Judaism). We haven’t portrayed any Catholic heresy yet, maybe Cathars should still have some room in the Languedoc, as Montaillou, an Occitan Village from 1294 to 1324, points to? Also, while taking this screenshot, we improved the view of this map mode, making it more responsive to zoom levels.

Raw Goods:
View attachment 1137992
The gold mines in the center of the map are going to die, as they were exploited only in recent times. Which other changes do you suggest?

Markets:
View attachment 1137993
Paris already had replaced the fairs of Champagne as the main trading center of the region, driven by the growth of the crown lands and the royal power in the 13th century. Apart from that, we have the market at Bordeaux in Aquitaine.

Population:
View attachment 1137994
View attachment 1137995
Population, and also how it looks with colors when you have the country clicked (Paris, centralizing France since Hugh Capet…).

And that’s all for today! Next week we will move to the North-Eastern part of Europe, as we will take at look at Poland and the Baltic region. Cheers!
How are the vassal colors determined? Because i really like the idea that the more integrated they are, the darker they get and closer to your own color. The less intergrated, the lighter the color.

Also, if as some have suggested, diplomatic relations are scaled to size and necessary maintenance to sustain the relationship, it wouldn't matter how small a vassal is (say, the channel islands) bc it would barely take any dip space, no?
 
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I know you can't speak much about culture yet, but how will French culture and French nation come about? Will we see a unified French culture at the end of the game?
 
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Please add the Waldensians.
 
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Greetings, and welcome to the third Tinto Maps! Last week we received a great amount of feedback regarding Iberia, which we’re working on, and this week we also reworked the map of the Low Countries, which we’ll show soon.

For this week, we’ll be taking a look at France, up until its current modern borders (which you’ll notice are quite different from the 1337 borders):

Countries:
View attachment 1137981
When portraying the political situation of France in 1337, we had a few options. On one extreme, we could make it a ‘centralized monarchy’, like England or the Iberian ones, but with a much lower degree of control over its territories. Conversely, we could have a ‘French Crown’ IO, similar to the HRE. We decided to go with the middle term, which represents the French Crown lands with the country of France, and its networks of appanages and vassals as different subjects. We think that this way we can portray the progressive centralization of the crown under the reigns of Philip II, Louis IX, and Philip IV, while also portraying the powerful jurisdictional powers of the French feuds. We have two types of subjects in France, by the way: vassals, which represent the regular fief mouvants, and appanages, which were the feuds granted to members of the royal family, that could eventually revert to the French Crown.

You may also notice that there might be a problem incoming related to a couple of English possessions in the mainland, the County of Ponthieu, and, especially, the Duchy of Aquitaine, as well as the Channel Islands of Jersey and Guernsey which comprise a dangerously close non-core location of England (they aren’t big enough to be a worthwhile subject country, even if that might be a more accurate representation).


Locations:
View attachment 1137982
An interesting distribution of locations. Some names may be a bit long, so, please blame the French, not us, and ask if you want to know which location it is.

Provinces:
View attachment 1137983
We are aware that we have a severe inconsistency here, which is naming the provinces after locations instead of provincial and regional names (we were not very sure about what naming convention to use when we crafted this map). So we would be glad to receive feedback on the names that you think would fit. E.g.: Artois instead of Arras, Anjou instead of Angers, etc.

Terrain:
View attachment 1137984
View attachment 1137985
View attachment 1137986
We’ll also read your feedback regarding the terrain of France, although we already know of some issues to correct (e.g.: changing the vegetation of the Landes to sparse instead of forests.

Cultures:
View attachment 1137987
Although there are two big cultural divisions of the French cultures, Langue d’Oil and Langue d’Oc, we think that their regional subdivisions would make the situation more accurate for 1337, where there is a long way until the cultural unification of France.

Religions:
View attachment 1137991
Not a very interesting situation, only 0.80% of the population is of a different religion (Judaism). We haven’t portrayed any Catholic heresy yet, maybe Cathars should still have some room in the Languedoc, as Montaillou, an Occitan Village from 1294 to 1324, points to? Also, while taking this screenshot, we improved the view of this map mode, making it more responsive to zoom levels.

Raw Goods:
View attachment 1137992
The gold mines in the center of the map are going to die, as they were exploited only in recent times. Which other changes do you suggest?

Markets:
View attachment 1137993
Paris already had replaced the fairs of Champagne as the main trading center of the region, driven by the growth of the crown lands and the royal power in the 13th century. Apart from that, we have the market at Bordeaux in Aquitaine.

Population:
View attachment 1137994
View attachment 1137995
Population, and also how it looks with colors when you have the country clicked (Paris, centralizing France since Hugh Capet…).

And that’s all for today! Next week we will move to the North-Eastern part of Europe, as we will take at look at Poland and the Baltic region. Cheers!
Could the population color map show vassals too?
 
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Pretty happy seeing the dying industry in Toulouse is represented! I wonder if there will be any event regarding that.

Also, Is there any catharism left in 1337? I think it was mainly erradicated by then, but maybe there are some last pops with that religion represented.
 
I'd like to comment that having the pops with different font sizes is misleading to think that bigger numbers=higher population. I do not know how can be this tackled considering that locations differ in size. However is something that should be considered.
Thanks for your work
 
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