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Tinto Maps #3 - 24th of May 2024 - France

Greetings, and welcome to the third Tinto Maps! Last week we received a great amount of feedback regarding Iberia, which we’re working on, and this week we also reworked the map of the Low Countries, which we’ll show soon.

For this week, we’ll be taking a look at France, up until its current modern borders (which you’ll notice are quite different from the 1337 borders):

Countries:
Countries.png

When portraying the political situation of France in 1337, we had a few options. On one extreme, we could make it a ‘centralized monarchy’, like England or the Iberian ones, but with a much lower degree of control over its territories. Conversely, we could have a ‘French Crown’ IO, similar to the HRE. We decided to go with the middle term, which represents the French Crown lands with the country of France, and its networks of appanages and vassals as different subjects. We think that this way we can portray the progressive centralization of the crown under the reigns of Philip II, Louis IX, and Philip IV, while also portraying the powerful jurisdictional powers of the French feuds. We have two types of subjects in France, by the way: vassals, which represent the regular fief mouvants, and appanages, which were the feuds granted to members of the royal family, that could eventually revert to the French Crown.

You may also notice that there might be a problem incoming related to a couple of English possessions in the mainland, the County of Ponthieu, and, especially, the Duchy of Aquitaine, as well as the Channel Islands of Jersey and Guernsey which comprise a dangerously close non-core location of England (they aren’t big enough to be a worthwhile subject country, even if that might be a more accurate representation).


Locations:
Locations.png

An interesting distribution of locations. Some names may be a bit long, so, please blame the French, not us, and ask if you want to know which location it is.

Provinces:
Provinces.png

We are aware that we have a severe inconsistency here, which is naming the provinces after locations instead of provincial and regional names (we were not very sure about what naming convention to use when we crafted this map). So we would be glad to receive feedback on the names that you think would fit. E.g.: Artois instead of Arras, Anjou instead of Angers, etc.

Terrain:
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

We’ll also read your feedback regarding the terrain of France, although we already know of some issues to correct (e.g.: changing the vegetation of the Landes to sparse instead of forests.

Cultures:
Cultures.png

Although there are two big cultural divisions of the French cultures, Langue d’Oil and Langue d’Oc, we think that their regional subdivisions would make the situation more accurate for 1337, where there is a long way until the cultural unification of France.

Religions:
Religion.png

Not a very interesting situation, only 0.80% of the population is of a different religion (Judaism). We haven’t portrayed any Catholic heresy yet, maybe Cathars should still have some room in the Languedoc, as Montaillou, an Occitan Village from 1294 to 1324, points to? Also, while taking this screenshot, we improved the view of this map mode, making it more responsive to zoom levels.

Raw Goods:
Raw Goods.png

The gold mines in the center of the map are going to die, as they were exploited only in recent times. Which other changes do you suggest?

Markets:
Markets.png

Paris already had replaced the fairs of Champagne as the main trading center of the region, driven by the growth of the crown lands and the royal power in the 13th century. Apart from that, we have the market at Bordeaux in Aquitaine.

Population:
Population.png

Pops with colors.png

Population, and also how it looks with colors when you have the country clicked (Paris, centralizing France since Hugh Capet…).

And that’s all for today! Next week we will move to the North-Eastern part of Europe, as we will take at look at Poland and the Baltic region. Cheers!
 
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I hope we will have special events or at least journal entries to depict the rise of Burgundy during the Hundred Years' War and up to the sad year of 1477 !
Take into consideration that the Duchy of Burgundy existing in 1337 is different from that rising in the 15th century, as it's not even the same dynasty governing (the House of Burgundy, under Odo IV; Philip the Bold is not even born), neither the same lands. This poses us the challenge of creating an extreme railroad to recreate the conditions of the 'rise of Burgundy' that you mention. In any case, we want to read your opinions on the matter, to make the best decision regarding the possible Burgundian content.
 
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Looking at the population map of France, a question arose about the Black Death. Will it work similarly to the EU4 institutions where it originates in a province, in this case location? And if this is the case, will its place of appearance be fixed? Or will it be fixed in certain areas? I'm asking this to see if it will be historically correct as to which places it affected the most or if it will be something more RNG (which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing in my opinion). It will definitely be a game changer if pops represents the might of a country.
 
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Would it be logical to unlock appanages to other countries, maybe as a government reforms? It doesn't seem farfetch that other countries could have used the same principles in order to tame their vassals. I'm not sure why this mechanic should be restricted to France, even if France is the only country applying it in 1337.
 
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1. Tricky question. Britanny was clearly more aligned with France after the marriage of Alix de Thouars to Pièrre de Dreux, in 1213. That resulted in the elevation to the peerage of France in 1297. Shall we consider it a fully independent country, or one that is considered, by that condition, submitted to the King of France? Tricky. We decided upon the option of considering it a vassal, but we're open to feedback on the matter.
2. There will be game rules allowing locations to change its name to different languages, yes.
3. That is not a possibility currently.
4. We'll take that into consideration (probably making those 'sparse' instead of 'woods'). Thanks!
That is true, although in practice the king of France was only liege in name. The french crown really started to gain power over the region after the War of the Two Joans (1341-1364) (which, by the way, I hope is also an event in game considering how soon it happens relatively to the game start!). I do not know how vassalage works in this game, but if it is something non-binary, then making Brittany a "very loose" vassal of France would make the most sense. Great news for 2 and 4 though!
 
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Could we get a market in Dijon to stop Barcelona and Genoa Markets crossing over Alps, and also to reduce paris market blob slightly. Or another important city to become market center near Rhine.
A player has the option to create a new market in Lyon or Toulouse, if that would be the best economic option during its game.
 
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It depends on how the mechanic is looking like, But I think it might be better that all deeply decentralized realms be a collection of vassals in an IO under the suzerain. Whether France, England, Castille or any other. And the struggle of the early game is to centralize the realm by passing laws inside the IO until the vassals are all completely incorporated. Just make it so that the HRE is especially more difficult to centralize compared to others, either by the fact that they have far more freedoms to contain, or that it is difficult to gather the widespread aproval of the states inside the HRE to pass centralization laws without a civil war in the empire.

It would also make the Burgundy Duchy situation much more easy to emulate, where they are vassals of the King of France and of the Holy Roman Empire. Just make them be a part of both IOs, the HRE IO and the French Kingdom IO.
 
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Hey Pavia.

Can't wait for Poland as I'm Polish. I've one question. Will this game have terrain map similiar to EU4, or in games like TW: Rome II? Will this map be all flat?
 
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Take into consideration that the Duchy of Burgundy existing in 1337 is different from that rising in the 15th century, as it's not even the same dynasty governing (the House of Burgundy, under Odo IV; Philip the Bold is not even born), neither the same lands. This poses us the challenge of creating an extreme railroad to recreate the conditions of the 'rise of Burgundy' that you mention. In any case, we want to read your opinions on the matter, to make the best decision regarding the possible Burgundian content.

On this subject, in MEIOU there are different levels of vassalage. Not just appanage but also autonomous vassals. Is there some degree of granularity here to allow for flexibility and agency of some vassals over pthers?
 
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While it makes sense to portray France with feudal vassals, the presence of Normandy as a separate tag makes little sense, by 1337, future Jean II of France was the duke. Wonder what's the reasoning behind it?
Normandy, Anjou, and Maine are appanages in a personal union under Prince Jean, heir of France, that's correct. We wanted to portray the granularity of his government over these territories until he became king.
 
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Do you accept suggestions for localized names for locations and provinces? I've compiled a list of Dutch names for French and German places in the game. Seeing other place names is always one of my favourite aspects of conquest.
Sir, if you follow the suggestion of creating a thread regarding localized names, may you then announce it? I would like to add some too for the portuguese language :D
 
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Would it be logical to unlock appanages to other countries, maybe as a government reforms? It doesn't seem farfetch that other countries could have used the same principles in order to tame their vassals. I'm not sure why this mechanic should be restricted to France, even if France is the only country applying it in 1337.
You really dislike tag specific mechanism. Normally I would respectfully disagree, but I got to give you respect for your determination!
 
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Next week we will move to the North-Eastern part of Europe, as we will take at look at Poland and the Baltic region. Cheers!
Expect a huge verification from me next week ;)

Greetings from Mazovia (Duchy of Rawa in this project).
 
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Yeah, we reviewed this week the tags between the Low Countries and France, and considered that after the Battle of Cassel of 1328, when Louis I was reinstated as the Count, its situation was more akin to that of vassalage.
I think this is the correct call, although Flanders should probably start as a "disloyal" vassal (or whatever the term of this will be in Project Caesar) and join up with England in the opening phase of the Hundred Years War.
 
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A little weird seeing sand production so far inland.
 
Take into consideration that the Duchy of Burgundy existing in 1337 is different from that rising in the 15th century, as it's not even the same dynasty governing (the House of Burgundy, under Odo IV; Philip the Bold is not even born), neither the same lands. This poses us the challenge of creating an extreme railroad to recreate the conditions of the 'rise of Burgundy' that you mention. In any case, we want to read your opinions on the matter, to make the best decision regarding the possible Burgundian content.
Exactly, that's why you shouldn't do it,. Extreme railroad = bad. Burgundian succession wouldn't work except as a "global" mechanic. You can't plan the demise of a quasi-kingdom one hundred years in advance, while it didn't even form yet.

As for the "rise of Burgundy", I'm not so sure how it happened historically. A cursory look seems to indicate it has been mostly done by inheritances, a situation which is hard to portray otherwise than with a revamped PUs mechanic. I would certainly not want whole chunk of territories changing hands seemingly randomly a century after the start of the game.
 
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