Tinto Maps #30 - 20th of December 2024 - South America

[Pavía]

I get if you want to keep it a surprise, but will Tinto Flavor function more like Tinto Maps in the sense that it is centered on flavor in one region at a time, or more like Tinto Talks, in the sense that it goes over flavor one mechanic at a time?

Country-centered, usually, although sometimes we'll take a wider scope.

 

[Pavía]

I was thinking this, but also was a bit surprised there wasn't a way across given that Orellana took this route and saw so many towns along the way. I'm sure it's tough to depict the groups that lived here but there's a lack even of SoPs.

View attachment 1233695

One note. When depicting these types of corridors, a standard we use is 'Could an army with cannons and supply wagons cross it?', because that's a possible behavior in the game that we want to take care of. So, even if Orellana managed to go downstream the Amazon with 50 men, it doesn't necessarily mean that a colonial army could use the same route, which is an extra reason not to portray it, not even as a corridor.

 

[Pavía]

What will be the first country you'll cover its flavor?

It will be a surprise country!

 

[Pavía]

Can you post a zoomed out religion map?

Like this?:

 

[Pavía]

By the way, can I ask for a zoomed out location map? Or at least one that covers all of Brazil.



And he travelled upstream, even!

 

[Pavía]

Could we have a map of locations/terrain centered on Southeastern Brazil (São Paulo / Minas Gerais / Espirito Santo / Rio de Janeiro)? Right now it's always split in two images so it's harder to doodle proposals on top of it.

The one that I just posted is good enough?

 

[Pavía]

All these wastelands in brasil don't make sense, populated areas of brazil are in these wastelands, Minas Gerais, São Paulo and Parana, Minas Gerais was the most populated brazilian state in 18th century and 19th century, because of the gold rush View attachment 1233723

Brazil population density
View attachment 1233722

Great maps for our feedback review, thanks!

 

[Pavía]

One question. Will the names of the markets change to the portuguese/spanish localized name of the location of the market capital? I hope so.

Yes.

 

[SaintDaveUK]

Now that the Tinto Maps are drawing to a close, would it be possible to know how base trade goods are distributed? (Like, 7.23% of all locations have fish, 1.74% have marble, etc; or 827 locations have fish, etc). Would be an interesting insight into the game's economy.

Wake up mum! Wake up dad! SantaDaveUK has visited!

Lumber	12.42%
Livestock	10.99%
Wild Game	10.19%
Fish	8.96%
Wheat	5.84%
Fur	4.83%
Legumes	3.94%
Wool	3.25%
Rice	2.81%
Fruit	2.75%
Sturdy Grains	2.48%
Cotton	2.35%
Stone	2.28%
Fiber Crops	2.11%
Clay	2.03%
Iron	1.90%
Maize	1.80%
Salt	1.79%
Horses	1.64%
Sand	1.32%
Gold	1.19%
Wine	1.09%
Medicaments	1.04%
Copper	0.98%
Dates	0.86%
Spices	0.69%
Gems	0.61%
Silk	0.61%
Silver	0.60%
Ivory	0.56%
Marble	0.47%
Lead	0.44%
Tea	0.44%
Coal	0.43%
Sugar	0.43%
Dyes	0.42%
Olives	0.40%
Pearls	0.39%
Tin	0.37%
Alum	0.36%
Elephants	0.34%
Tobacco	0.28%
Soybeans	0.27%
Cocoa	0.23%
Incense	0.16%
Saltpeter	0.16%
Mercury	0.15%
Amber	0.15%
Potatoes	0.13%
Coffee	0.07%

 

[Pavía]

Oh, I missed that one! Hnm, it's a bit low res (we can barely read 'cunhanbebe' or the province that contains Ilha Bela next to Tamoio) - if we could have a slightly more zoomed in version over these 4 states it would be better, if possible!

 

[SaintDaveUK]

Bro finally finished juggling his balls

Nobody said they were mine

 

[SaintDaveUK]

Nice! Is this the whole world or just South America?

whole world

 

[SaintDaveUK]

Why can there not be a location without a market assigned?

It is strange to see a gigantic one without any access
View attachment 1233727
we can have a threshold that a market can assign a location to itself only if the strength is at least 5.

Also as a solution, there can be "No Market" market

The basic logic of the economy requires a location to be part of a market, even if it's not efficient. Markets are mostly relevant to the way landed countries work, so it's not a hugely relevant issue.

 

[SaintDaveUK]

Wow potatoes and coffee more valuable than spices! I can't wait to see how the mechanics play out to make them more abundant

Fewer locations isn't the same as being more valuable. For example, the base price of spices is much higher, and costs much less to transport than potato (ever bought €10 worth of saffron?). Furthermore, the pop demand for spices is very high across the world which pushes the price up further.

 

[Pavía]

1. What's the state of religions in South America? Have you already merged them? I think the current setup makes the religious gameplay of the area quite interesting, I like it.
2. What's the name of Qusqu's formable, Inca (Empire) or Tawantinsuyu? Victoria 3 has the latter as the name of the formable/releasable, and I would prefer that one, as it's how its inhabitants actually called it.
3. Do you consider Khipu to be writing when deciding what advances the Andean TAGs have at game start?
4. Why is this culture called Inka? The word Inka in Quechua means "ruler", it doesn't sound like the name of a culture to me.View attachment 1233718
5. I wonder how playing in this region will be with all this uncolonized locations, especially the Chimu, since they seem to be split in two pieces.
6. I'm pleased with the location density of the Andes, however there are a lot of location names in Peru that are not readable, some do not even show up, could you post some more zoomed-in location maps of that region?
7. 
   I was already planning to play Qusqu as my first country in PC, as it's how I learned to play EU4, now you've convinced me. I'm in for the challenge.

1. Yes, it's with the merged religions.
2. Inca for the moment, although I think that we may potentially have the option to pick one of the two options.
3. It is considered, yes.
4. We'll double-check.
6:

 

[SaintDaveUK]

For anyone interested, this is how the Provinces map appears to players, with impassable wastelands distinguished as null entities by greying them out. The version with watelands coloured by province is just in the debug build so we can see what we are doing when we paint the map.

 

[Pavía]

Maybe add a bit of (tea?) in the region around Paraguay to simulate maté?

Mate (drink) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Mate, a traditional South American infusion, is a highly valued commercial product in the Southern Cone. It would be wonderful to incorporate it into the game, given its significance to both indigenous cultures and colonial societies

IMO there should be yerba mate representation as a good, being a tea, it could break up the large chunk of wild game on rio grande do sul and the chunk of lumber in paraguay. It was a very important plant for the natives, especially the guarani, and is still a very important plant for the region today. The natural range of the plant is on the image bellow.

View attachment 1233787

One of our coworkers is Uruguayan, so we might have had some mate at the studio...

I think that it would be a bit of an outreach to portray it as Tea. What would you think about portraying it as Medicaments?

 

[SaintDaveUK]

Imma be fair, I beg you to change it, they're all basically the same 3 glassy colours it's just plain bad to look at it. Can we make it like the earlier proposed provinces with more vibrant different colours? Please? Please?

It's in flux, I wouldn't put much stock into the exact colours it has right now.

 

[SaintDaveUK]

well the signed a treaty that force to both parties to say falklands in english and malvinas when speaking spanish

Neither Argentina nor the United Kingdom invited Tinto to those talks. Therefore we are non-signitories and not bound by the treaty.

 

[Pavía]

If this would help, here are some maps with the historical boundaries of cities in São Paulo in the years 1700 and 1800, as well as a list of when these settlements were founded (the areas along the Tietê river were also used to move up to the hinterlands of São Paulo and Brazil, all the way to the Tietê river - even though there weren't many settlements there):

São Vicente	1532
Santos	1546
São Paulo	1554
Itanhaém	1561
Cananeia	1600
Mogi das Cruzes	1611
Santana de Parnaíba	1625
São Sebastião	1636
Ubatuba	1637
Iguape	1639
Taubaté	1645
Guaratinguetá	1651
Jacareí	1653
Itu	1654
Jundiaí	1655
Sorocaba	1661

Spoiler: Large maps of São Paulo municipalities in 1700 and 1800

[1]

Here's also a useful map of the evolution of comarcas (regions) and municipalities in Minas Gerais - notice how most of them are on central/southern Minas Gerais, as opposed to Project Ceasar map (where most of them are in the West and North, while the most dense areas IRL are wastelands). [2, 3]

Vila do Carmo (Mariana)	1711
Vila Rica (Ouro Preto)	1711
Sabará	1711
São João Del Rei	1713-1730
Vila Nova da Rainha (Caeté)	1713-1730
Vila do Príncipe (Serro)	1713-1730
Pitangui	1713-1730
São José Del Rei	1713-1730
Bom Sucesso das Minas Novas (Minas Novas)	1713-1730
Tamanduá (Tapecerica)	1789-1814
Barbacena	1789-1814
Queluz (Conselheiro Lafaiete)	1789-1814
Paracatu	1789-1814
Campanha	1789-1814
Baependi	1789-1814
Jacuí	1789-1814

Spoiler: Large maps of Minas Gerais municipalities in 1700s to 1800s

View attachment 1233820


View attachment 1233828
[3]

Sources:
[1] Arquivo Publico de São Paulo: "DEESP (Departamento de Estatística do Estado de São Paulo); Seção de Cartografia; Evolução da Divisão Administrativa do Estado entre 1600 e 1950, contendo: criadores, datas, divisas e sede de comarcas e municípios; Impresso em cartolina"
[2] Bernardo Alves FURTADO, EVOLUÇÃO DA DIVISÃO TERRITORIAL DE MINAS GERAIS:OS LIMITES MUNICIPAIS DESDE 1711
[3] Criação de vilas em Minas Geraisno início do regime monárquico: elementos norteadores gerais

Great maps, thanks!