Tinto Maps #30 - 20th of December 2024 - South America

[Trovador]

The one that I just posted is good enough?

Oh, I missed that one! Hnm, it's a bit low res (we can barely read 'cunhanbebe' or the province that contains Ilha Bela next to Tamoio) - if we could have a slightly more zoomed in version over these 4 states it would be better, if possible!

 

[WaseK]

Yes, it already is.

Any a little more detailed feedback on the dynamical raw materials would be very appreciated. Can gold / silver other metals mines be depleted? Can human & ai change an agricultural goods (i.e. from tobacco to maize), can we even prospect for some nice shiny metals?

 

[verderuso]

I don't understand why only Mapuche people (central "Reche" or "Reche-Mapuche" would be a more appropriate name) would be considered a SoP in what is now Chile, considering the large amount of complex groups that lived in the meridional Andes during the late intermediate period (also what is often called a "period of regional developments" in argentinian archeology) after the collapse of Tiwanaku influence.
Main groups that could be considered Sops, From North to south (without mentioning the many mobile, pastoralist or hunter-gatherer societies that shared the same space):

Cultura Arica is on its Gentilar phase at this time
Pica-Tarapacá cultural complex
Solor phase
altiplanic tradition groups enter their Toconce-Zapar phase
Animas and Copiapo Culture and possibly Animas
Diaguita Cultures and possibly Animas
Molle and Diaguita
Aconcagua Cultural Complex
Late intermediate period societies of the Maule
Vergel Cultural Complex
Pitren

Recommended reading:

- Falabella, F. (Ed.). (2016). Prehistoria en Chile: Desde sus primeros habitantes hasta los Incas. Editorial Universitaria.
- Berenguer, J. (Ed.). (2016). Chile Through the Millennia. Museo Chileno de Arte Precolombino / El Cerrito, Santiago.
- Hayashida, F. M., Troncoso, A., & Salazar, D. (Eds.). (2022). Rethinking the Inka: Community, landscape, and empire in the southern Andes. University of Texas Press.
- Malpass, M. A., & Alconini, S. (Eds.). (2010). Distant provinces in the Inka Empire: toward a deeper understanding of Inka imperialism. University of Iowa Press.
- Garrido, F. (2024). A Chronological Model for Inca Provincial Expansion: The Case of the Copiapo Valley. Latin American Antiquity, 1-20.
- Pavlovic, D., Sánchez, R., Pascual, D., Martínez, A., Cortés, C., Dávila, C., & La Mura, N. (2019). Rituales de la vida y de la muerte: dinámicas de interacción entre el Tawantinsuyu y las poblaciones locales en la cuenca del Maipo-Mapocho, Chile central. Estudios atacameños, (63), 43-80.

 

[Apukispay]

Since the Amazon was primarily navigated on very small ships (canoe size, even the smallest on-map ships like war galleys would be unusually large) and there were no naval engagements up river, the solution is to abstract the situation by making the upper Amazon traversable land terrain. Much like we don't need to micro the many small boats needed for a strait crossing, we should not need to micro an army finding 100 canoes to sail up the amazon. I do not know how much faster than land travel Amazonian sailing is, but since this will be a low importance route the disparity between the strategic speed of a marching army and a hypothetical sailing one won't have a major gameplay impact.

Also, a potential solution: Locations on very large but not ship-navigable inland rivers could have a "canoe network" building that gives friendly land forces a large movement speed boost at the cost of requiring a bunch of wood and manpower to maintain.

I think you are really underestimating the size of the amazon river, modern cargo ship navigate upriver regularly.

 

[Tissaia]

@SaintDaveUK
Panara culture is a bit too dark. It sticks out too much and it's difficult to read name on it's colour.

 

[Conde de Montanelas]

I do not know how much faster than land travel Amazonian sailing is

Much, much faster.
Suffice to say until not so long ago (1980s if I'm not mistaken) you had the option between flying and sailing the Amazon to access Manaus.

the disparity between the strategic speed of a marching army and a hypothetical sailing one won't have a major gameplay impact.

It won't, because we don't have navigable rivers. But the idea of marching an army - especially a European army - through the heart of the Amazon, would be a bit at odds with the general health of the soldiers. "General health" as in it'd be a suicide mission previous to modern medicine and industrial scale supply chains.
(Let us consider the difficulties the Americans had in Vietnam, and translate it to 16th-18th century European kingdoms in an arguably even more hostile environment).

 

[GDQuirm]

Now that we’ve seen every tinto maps, all I need in my life is the raw province map files the game uses, so I can get to work wasting too many hours of my life on fantasy map mods.

…Pretty please?

 

[Kompiskaninen]

Should'nt there be more countries or at least SoP in the peruvian Andes? Especially the Wanka should probably be a country instead of a SoP. It seems very odd and frankly quite unhistorical to have so few countries and SoPs in the Andes when Central America, not to mention North America, has so many!

 

[crowdemon]

The map looks good. Thanks for the breakdown.

 

[Alt1f4]

Why is south east Brazil mostly wastelands? Sure those areas were difficult to traverse at first but as soon as Portugal began to move inland those areas were easily colonized (also that area is the most populated region in Brazil nowadays)

 

[SeekTruthFromFx]

The Falkland Islands are shown as having the Selknam Culture. The Falklands were not settled in 1337, but IIRC the game requires all Locations to have a Culture. A recent article in Science Advances arguing that there were prehistoric visitors from South America proper concluded that those people were Yaghan (a.k.a. Yámana) from Tierra del Fuego, based on similarities in human diet, fire-clearing practices and the presence & diet of the Warrah or Falkland Islands fox (the apex predator before Europeans arrived and killed them all). That met with some pushback from other academics (especially the evidence from the Warrah) and a subsequent review article described the argument for prehistoric visits as "insecure". We have to be careful not to build too much on a very slender evidence base, but as far as I know the debate is all about the Yaghan and no one has suggested the Selknam, so if the islands must have a Culture you should use the Yaghan, who are already correctly present in southern Tierra del Fuego.

The Islands' climate is shown as Arctic, which seems to represent Trewartha Fi and Ft. The threshold for this is that all months have a mean monthly temperature below 10° C; the mean for January in Stanley is 9.5°C, so it depends whether you round up or down, which is as marginal as you can get. The milder Ft is supposed to indicate "that there is a brief time when the surface might be free of snow or ice and a scrub or tundra vegetation cover is possible". That is very different from the Falklands, where there is a long, snow-free summer. If you look at the detailed climate maps on koppen.earth (or the summary in the Setting section of this very recent academic article), it's really the uplands that are Köppen ET (Trewartha Ft), while the lowland areas around the harbours are Köppen Cfc. And what Project Caesar is really trying to model here is the effect of climate on demography, the economy and perhaps combat. The Falklands' sheep-farming economy is similar to places like the Faroes (not yet shown in Tinto Maps and admittedly wetter) or upland Wales, not northern Iceland or inland Greenland, which the game shows as Arctic. Patagonia at the same latitude as the Falklands is shown as Cold Arid. The Falklands is subject to the outermost reaches of the Andean rain shadow, so I wonder whether Cold Arid might be the best choice.

I would be interested in seeing the Locations for the Falklands. If you compare its size to Tierra del Fuego (which has a broadly similar climate & economy, and a 'worse' latitude), there should be 5 or so Locations. Surely there's at least three (West Falkland, Lafonia, and the rump of East Falkland)? In our timeline it did not become densely populated, but 1337 is early enough that things could have been somewhat different. Rump East Falkland should have a good natural harbour, equal to those on the River Plate estuary, representing Stanley Harbour (as part of the wider Port William) and Puerto Soledad/Port Louis. The water is not as deep as the River Plate harbours, but for late medieval and early modern ships (with their shallow draughts) that's much less important than the fact that these sheltered coves could protect them from the full force of the Atlantic.

 

[lukesilveira]

I'm not sure if most of northwestern Rio Grande do Sul (aka Missões / Missiones) should be impassable territory as it is now. It was populated before European colonization (Catholic Church missionaries had the mission to evangelize the poor souls, ergo "Missões") and it was an important conflict zone in South American colonies.

 

[Sebroar]

1. What's the state of religions in South America? Have you already merged them? I think the current setup makes the religious gameplay of the area quite interesting, I like it.
2. What's the name of Qusqu's formable, Inca (Empire) or Tawantinsuyu? Victoria 3 has the latter as the name of the formable/releasable, and I would prefer that one, as it's how its inhabitants actually called it.
3. Do you consider Khipu to be writing when deciding what advances the Andean TAGs have at game start?
4. Why is this culture called Inka? The word Inka in Quechua means "ruler", it doesn't sound like the name of a culture to me.
   
5. I wonder how playing in this region will be with all this uncolonized locations, especially the Chimu, since they seem to be split in two pieces.
6. I'm pleased with the location density of the Andes, however there are a lot of location names in Peru that are not readable, some do not even show up, could you post some more zoomed-in location maps of that region?

7. They have some unique features, but it's pretty hardcore at this moment, TBH.

   I was already planning to play Qusqu as my first country in PC, as it's how I learned to play EU4, now you've convinced me. I'm in for the challenge.

 

[Atromb]

I would hope the Amazon river bank would be traversable up to ecuador, don't really agree with all being wasteland.

 

[Pavía]

One question. Will the names of the markets change to the portuguese/spanish localized name of the location of the market capital? I hope so.

Yes.

 

[Homecastle]

I suggest renaming Guayana to the plural form Las Guayanas/ the Guayanas and enlarging it a bit to represent the geographic and historical term instead of the modern one used for only Guyana, Suriname and French Guiana.
The Guayanas go from the mouth of the Orinoco to the mouth of the Amazon in Amapa roughly overlapping the Guiana Shield. To model that in game I would include the provinces of Arua and Macuxi and deviding the Wasteland inbetween into north and south, adding the northern part to the province of Arua. Although Caroni and parts of Orinucu should also belong the the Guayanas, I would keep them seperate for gameplay reasons, as 5 provinces is already pretty big for an area.

 

[SaintDaveUK]

Now that the Tinto Maps are drawing to a close, would it be possible to know how base trade goods are distributed? (Like, 7.23% of all locations have fish, 1.74% have marble, etc; or 827 locations have fish, etc). Would be an interesting insight into the game's economy.

Wake up mum! Wake up dad! SantaDaveUK has visited!

Lumber	12.42%
Livestock	10.99%
Wild Game	10.19%
Fish	8.96%
Wheat	5.84%
Fur	4.83%
Legumes	3.94%
Wool	3.25%
Rice	2.81%
Fruit	2.75%
Sturdy Grains	2.48%
Cotton	2.35%
Stone	2.28%
Fiber Crops	2.11%
Clay	2.03%
Iron	1.90%
Maize	1.80%
Salt	1.79%
Horses	1.64%
Sand	1.32%
Gold	1.19%
Wine	1.09%
Medicaments	1.04%
Copper	0.98%
Dates	0.86%
Spices	0.69%
Gems	0.61%
Silk	0.61%
Silver	0.60%
Ivory	0.56%
Marble	0.47%
Lead	0.44%
Tea	0.44%
Coal	0.43%
Sugar	0.43%
Dyes	0.42%
Olives	0.40%
Pearls	0.39%
Tin	0.37%
Alum	0.36%
Elephants	0.34%
Tobacco	0.28%
Soybeans	0.27%
Cocoa	0.23%
Incense	0.16%
Saltpeter	0.16%
Mercury	0.15%
Amber	0.15%
Potatoes	0.13%
Coffee	0.07%

 

[Bisonmask]

Once again asking for "potatoes" to be replaced with "tubers", their presence here makes it even more apparent that cassava, yams, sweet potatoes, taro, and other root vegetables are missing when they were and still are critical to the lives of billions of people living in the tropics

 

[matfer13]

Wake up mum! Wake up dad! SantaDaveUK has visited!

Lumber	12.42%
Livestock	10.99%
Wild Game	10.19%
Fish	8.96%
Wheat	5.84%
Fur	4.83%
Legumes	3.94%
Wool	3.25%
Rice	2.81%
Fruit	2.75%
Sturdy Grains	2.48%
Cotton	2.35%
Stone	2.28%
Fiber Crops	2.11%
Clay	2.03%
Iron	1.90%
Maize	1.80%
Salt	1.79%
Horses	1.64%
Sand	1.32%
Gold	1.19%
Wine	1.09%
Medicaments	1.04%
Copper	0.98%
Dates	0.86%
Spices	0.69%
Gems	0.61%
Silk	0.61%
Silver	0.60%
Ivory	0.56%
Marble	0.47%
Lead	0.44%
Tea	0.44%
Coal	0.43%
Sugar	0.43%
Dyes	0.42%
Olives	0.40%
Pearls	0.39%
Tin	0.37%
Alum	0.36%
Elephants	0.34%
Tobacco	0.28%
Soybeans	0.27%
Cocoa	0.23%
Incense	0.16%
Saltpeter	0.16%
Mercury	0.15%
Amber	0.15%
Potatoes	0.13%
Coffee	0.07%

Bro finally finished juggling his balls

 

[Pavía]

Oh, I missed that one! Hnm, it's a bit low res (we can barely read 'cunhanbebe' or the province that contains Ilha Bela next to Tamoio) - if we could have a slightly more zoomed in version over these 4 states it would be better, if possible!