Tinto Maps #30 - 20th of December 2024 - South America

[Davincie]

I would suggest in general that the Mesoamerican states (both in Mexico and Peru) should have higher development than they currently have. When the Spanish landed in these places they described advanced trading and communication networks, large and well maintained cities and healthy people. This is not what you get in undeveloped areas. You could easily have the development crater after disease is introduced to simulate its bleak state thereafter, instead of unnecessarily starting them on the back foot.

 

[lukesilveira]

The fundamental misconception seems to be the notion that Portuguese colonization patterns were wholly affected by what Paradox would consider 'wasteland' terrain. Which is certainly true in the Amazon region, where the Portuguese nonetheless penetrated across the river basin and through corridors which are wastelands currently.

But elsewhere the issue is political and demographic. Portugal is a tiny country claiming land strategically by building forts at the mouth of rivers and such. It's small population claimed an area that is larger than today's contiguous USA. The Atlantic forest was not impenetrable nearly as impenetrable as the Amazon. But for a country that lacked the population to mass settle, villages and forts were built according to political incentives. Namely the discovery of gold, proximity towards Europe and the slow march of settlement itself.

Exactly. One thing to consider is that traversing the Amazon (aside from navigating the Amazon river itself and its tributary rivers) was absolute hell, which wasn’t usually the case for the Atlantic Forest.

I also think they got it backwards. Portuguese settlers and Brazilians didn’t preserve the Amazon while almost erasing the Atlantic Forest because they loved one and hated the other. If the Amazon had been as easy to traverse as the Atlantic Forest, it would likely share a similarly tragic history. So it is very strange to treat both as analogous, untraversable wastelands.

 

[POD012]

The fundamental misconception seems to be the notion that Portuguese colonization patterns were wholly affected by what Paradox would consider 'wasteland' terrain. Which is certainly true in the Amazon region, where the Portuguese nonetheless penetrated across the river basin and through corridors which are wastelands currently.

But elsewhere the issue is political and demographic. Portugal is a tiny country claiming land strategically by building forts at the mouth of rivers and such. It's small population claimed an area that is larger than today's contiguous USA. The Atlantic forest was not impenetrable nearly as impenetrable as the Amazon. But for a country that lacked the population to mass settle, villages and forts were built according to political incentives. Namely the discovery of gold, proximity towards Europe and the slow march of settlement itself.

Indeed!

Although the forested Serras may have offered a geographical obstacle, it was hardly one fatal to further inland settlement; where the riches presented themselves, it occured. Wild harvesting and plantation economies could easily be maintained on or near the coast, with manpower acquired through slave trading or raiding inlands. When the bandeiras found not only natives to enslave but gold or gems, however, resources could be shifted further inland.
In the 19th and 20th Centuries, much of the interior of the country would come under settlement because a population base had started to be established, foreing immigrants could more freely enter the country, and new agricultural products - especially coffee - demanded more land.
A colonial metropole with more human capital and greater dedication to simple settlement could likely have pushed further into Brazil, though really all of the american colonies bar the ones with large, surviving native populations were quite sparsely populated prior to independence. Really, that's something I hope Caesar's population system helps capture better - the europeans didn't gloriously stride forth from sea to shining sea like it happens in EU4 because there just weren't enough people or, frankly, interest for that much land. The newly independent, post-colonial polities, though, had some very serious interest in peopling their countrysides and caught a wave of poor europeans - and later asians - being very unhappy with the state of affairs of their own countries.

 

[Aldaron]

Este é um mapa incompleto da minha proposta, veja que (Pará e Mato Grosso não foram feitos) e algumas partes estão em andamento (Rio Grande do Sul). Não diga que fui apologista: Muita gente pediu no começo para acrescentar mais localidades e eu me opus, não porque não quisesse, mas para ficar equilibrado. Veja o terreno intransitável entre Cananéia e Paranaguá (quando pode não ser, mas acho justo) ou no oeste do Maranhão. Garanto que as regiões de São Paulo, Jacareí e Campinas são uma obra-prima.

View attachment 1233818

Note: the map does not open on mobile devices because of its large resolution (10K) To be continued.

Did you do that map with GIS by chance? If yes, please do share the shapefile files so that we are able to use it if we need it.

 

[POD012]

I would suggest in general that the Mesoamerican states (both in Mexico and Peru) should have higher development than they currently have. When the Spanish landed in these places they described advanced trading and communication networks, large and well maintained cities and healthy people. This is not what you get in undeveloped areas. You could easily have the development crater after disease is introduced to simulate its bleak state thereafter, instead of unnecessarily starting them on the back foot.

And population!

They have a whole situation for the spread of diseases into the New World and yet the population numbers are still so low! That's one of the major points I hope to see addressed, and even if the reason is "gamebalance" then I'd at least like it to be bluntly stated.

 

[Rodmello114]

Hey, as a Brazilian player, I felt a little disappointed with the amount of wastelands in Brazil, especially in the Southeast region. Historically, São Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, and Minas Gerais were pivotal to the development of the Brazilian economy and society, particularly through agricultural products like sugarcane, coffee, and the extraction of gold in Minas Gerais. I feel like this excessive amount of impassable terrain in Brazil will severely hinder gameplay as Brazil or any country that wants to colonize this region. Some much more "inhospitable" places, like Siberia and the African Savanna, were given multiple passages between wastelands and hundreds of locations, whereas Brazil as a whole feels left behind in this aspect.

Aside from the wastelands issue, it also baffles me that the "hospitable" areas in Brazil, such as its coast, have so few locations when compared to other colonial nations like Canada or the U.S. For example, almost the entire state of Rio de Janeiro is represented as just one location!

 

[Braziler]

Did you make this map with GIS by any chance? If so, please share the shapefiles so we can use them if we need them.

It's in SVG. Maybe I can georeference it, if I can, I'll send you the shapefile. Here (MapofBrazil.txt) are the GCP points to view the georeferenced map (that's what I managed to do).
You probably know it, but to use it, change the extension from txt to points and import it along with the map into the QGIS georeferencer.

Some of my sources: Map of Brazilian Cities from 1872, this was the first time that the boundaries were "marked" View attachment 1872CiII.png
A 1900 version of the map:

View attachment 1900CiII.png
The source is here ,

It is important to know that these maps do not show all cities, only those that have their own administration; the others are subdivisions within them. Today, Brazil has 5,700 municipalities and 10,670 subdivisions within them (districts).

I have posted some maps on topics such as:

View attachment 1215711
Literal interpretation of the treaties, excluding the Roraima issue. Gall projection.

I'm using this:
View attachment 1204738
I don't send links to found files because I didn't find them.
I will also use this one for air conditioning:
View attachment 1204740
Edit: Just explaining that EU5 in the file means "fifth edited unit of the Brazilian [map]" and not what people usually say about the real name of PC. It's quite true.

All of them can be georeferenced with the "SourceofMap" points file.

Edit:
Vegetation Key
I would try find the shapefile, if I was at home. (It's a file with a copilation of all aspects of Brazilian vegetation, as well wich I've post upper, with the original vegetation).
End edit.

Place names are erased from the area where they included native names. You can see the 1872 map of named towns here:
Holy Spirit
Maranhao
Minas Gerais
Alagoas
Amazonas
Goias
Paraiba
Mato Grosso
Sergipe
Rio Grande do Norte
Ceara
To
Paraná
Pernambuco
São Paulo
Bahia
Rio de Janeiro
Rio Grande do Sul
I can't find it for Piauí or Santa Catarina.
Do not use electoral areas to draw the map.

I don't know if it helps, but you can see the year of foundation, emancipation, name changes and the history of all Brazilian cities here . You need to search for the name of the city, which you can see by going to the "Panorama" map.

Regarding the population in the 16th century, the native population of Brazil was 2,431,000 according to the IBGE . The population of the Amazon was decreasing and the coastal population was increasing, before the arrival of the Portuguese. Some sources put the population at up to 7 million.

 

[joaofrancisco25]

There should probably be some silver in Argentina, given that the colony is named after the metal.

The silver came from Potosi, Argentina was named after it because Buenos Aires was the port where the metal went to Spain

 

[Karamelmasse]

Purum awqa should not be its own culture as that's just a degoratory quechua term used for the Pikumche that literaly means "savage enemy". So it should just be merged with the Pikumche.

The territorial extent looks fine as they extended not beyond the Aconcagua valley in the north, and in the south they reached somewhere between the Maule river and Bio Bio River. Probably around the Itata river basin. The southern border was much softer since the Pikumche are a subgroup of the Mapuche.

Here are some maps of the precolumbian situation:

Also, the Cuyo area should not cross over to Chile, that's just weird mechanics-wise since a tag could just convert cultures from any side of the Andes to the other. Considering Chile's isolation and self reliance through history this would not very accurate to represent the geographical challenges for the various societies that inhabited this region and how difficult it was for foreign entities to conquer it effectively.

Here's a topographic map for this point:

And as you can see, the North should be covered in plateaus and the followed by hills as you get into the central valleys.

 

[nyetflix2]

Here is a map of the distribution of the Puquina language. Keep in mind those Puquina placenames are more than likely areas that were Puquina speaking in centuries earlier than the 1600s, as that's the only time we start to get actual data on it. Puquina was in continuous decline over probably around a millenium, but in 1337 should still be pretty significant.

Again, Peruvian linguist Rodolfo Cerron Palomino’s work Las Lenguas de los Incas is a source that talks about the toponymic evidence for this distribution, and I would assume the above map is partially based on some work of his.

By the way, shouldn't the Kallawaya culture use the Puquina language? The modern secret language of the Kallawaya is a mixed language, but the core is Puquina according to the literature.

Here's a screenshot from page 583 of Languages of the Middle Andes in areal-typological perspective (Adelaar 2012):

 

[joaofrancisco25]

Hello, dear devs!

I think that Paraíba location should have a suitable natural harbour. Our colonisation is very unique in the sense that our capital and first city (today's João Pessoa, then Filipéia de Nossa Senhora das Neves) was colonised from the river Paraíba, not from the coast. To this day, one of the best ports in the Northeast is situated on the Paraíba river estuary at Cabedelo, where the river widens and has ample space for ships of all sizes.

Filipéia was first colonised in 1585, with the construction of the Fort of Santa Catarina in today's Cabedelo at the year of 1589. There were plans since Pedro II's reign to build a commercial harbour at Cabedelo, which denotes the suitability before modern harbour-building techniques.

History of Paraíba - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Porto de Cabedelo – Wikipédia, a enciclopédia livre

pt.wikipedia.org

https://www.portservices.com.br/assets/docs/Cabedelo.pdf

Spoiler: Cabedelo Harbour

View attachment 1234205

Absolutely this. Not only Filipeia but also Recife (Pernambuco) is not represented with a natural harbor, which is really strange. It shared the highest importance with Salvador and Rio de Janeiro, being closer to Europe than both. It also was the main Dutch hub when parts of the Northeast were conquered by the Netherlands in the 1600s, it held bith strategic importance and riches from the sugar production.

The location is "Caxanga" on your map

 

[juant675]

I think the Amazon map of CK3's AtE mod is a good example
View attachment 1233970

and some wasteladns in the patagonia

 

[Sehmops]

It will be a surprise country!

Soooooo....... Sweden?

 

[Wildrake]

Lower part of Mapuche should be Cunco people, both Mapuche, Williche and Cunco belong to one group

 

[MegaVHS]

Brazil was born throught the extraction of the ''Pau-Brasil'' (Pau= Wood / Brasil = Braça = Ember) also called Ibirapitanga (red tree) in Tupi-Guarani

it was a tree that had a ember-like wood that was used for the creation of furniture and Dyes. the natives would chop the wood and trade for manufactored goods with the Portuguese.

Spoiler: Pau-Brasil

The Portuguese used the tree to kickstart ocupation of the brazilian coast, they built FEITORIAS , Fortified warehouses for the wood waiting the next shipment, the main feitorias for the extraction of Pau-Brasil were in Cabo Frio ,Porto Seguro and Igarassu/Pernambuco.

Spoiler: RGO's Brazil

I would advocate to make Cabo frio + Recife/Igarassu locations with Dyes as their RGO, but i would like to also point out that the natives where organized and probably deserve to be SoP's, and maybe it would make more sense to make many locations in the Pau-Brasil range dye RGO's, where the natives would extract it and they would trade with the portuguese in these outposts, later on with actual colonization these would slowly fade out for colonial goods such as Sugar.

Spoiler: Pau-Brasil range/Early Economy of Brasil

1. Pra-Brasil Range, 2. Livestock, 3. Sugar

 

[DoutorFreire]

Absolutely this. Not only Filipeia but also Recife (Pernambuco) is not represented with a natural harbor, which is really strange. It shared the highest importance with Salvador and Rio de Janeiro, being closer to Europe than both. It also was the main Dutch hub when parts of the Northeast were conquered by the Netherlands in the 1600s, it held bith strategic importance and riches from the sugar production.

The location is "Caxanga" on your map

Agree. Recife/Olinda was truly a major hub, and previous iterations of PDX games, such as EU4, included Recife as a Natural Harbour.

 

[juanfegonzalezce]

I think the Muisca should actually be divided at least into four "political entities".

1. Bacatá: Already represented under the Zaque name in the map. Zaque was just the title of the rulers of the region centred around Bacatá (which is modern-day Funza, a suburb of modern-day Bogotá). Bacatá was the namesake for the colonial city of Santa Fe de Bogotá.

2. Hunza: Already represented under the Zaque name in the map. Again, Zaque was just the title of the rulers of the region around Hunza, which is modern-day Tunja.

3. Tundama: Centred in modern-day Duitama. It would be a theocracy and have some sort of vassalage relationship with Hunza.

4. Suamox: Centred around modern-day Sogamoso. It would also be a theocracy and the main religious centre for the Muisca religion.

The names of these four polities could be rendered in the acurate Muisca spelling, but I bet these widely used names are more well-known to most players and people who currently live in those regions. Using either spelling would be fine, I think.

 

[Sheightyy]

Could you please include a colourblind option for the colour gradient maps, so that some of the maps like dev can use different colours whne the game releases?

 

[Supernova90]

Is my geography a bit off, or is the Potosi location producing gold instead of silver?
Edit: Achievement idea: Snuff out the Light - As Ishma, conquer Qusqu and form the Incan Empire/Tawantinsuyu. (Yes this is an Emperor's New Groove/Kingdom of the Sun reference.)

 

[Akai Matto]

No one bothered to address my previous concerns so I summarized it here. Please, for the love of God, correct this mistake. I do not understand how such a mistake was even made, considering you got (sort of) right the Querandí.

Make Het and Gununa Kune (puelches) the kénos religion, and make them all speak the same language group. I want to play as my people. Imagine being french, trying to play as a frenchman, and discovering your people speak english now and are muslims. That's how outrageous this is.