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Tinto Maps #4 - 31th of May 2024 - Poland, Ruthenia, Baltic

Hello everyone, and welcome to the fourth Tinto Maps! The feedback that we've received so far has been great, and there will be news soon regarding the map fixes that we've already done.

This week we are showing you Poland, Lithuania, Ruthenia, and the Baltic region. Let’s check it with no further ado:

Countries
Countries.jpg

A bigger picture of what’s going on in this region today, as we hadn’t shown it entirely before. To the west, the Kingdom of Poland is ruled by Casimir III of the House of Piast. It is not a completely unified kingdom, as there are several powerful vassals under him, most of them also Piasts themselves.

To the east, the Duchy of Lithuania is ruled by Gediminas, who has greatly expanded the influence of the country into Russian lands (side note: Gediminas entitled himself in his diplomatic correspondence ‘king’, but was considered by the Pope ‘king or duke’, and the title of Grand Duke wouldn’t be formally adopted until later [most likely replicating the Russian title ‘Grand Prince’]. That’s why Lithuania starts as a Duchy, although it will have an event that would make it possible to adopt the dynamic country name of ‘Grand Duchy’).

To the south, the principalities of Kyiv and Galicia-Volhynia have recently fallen under foreign influence, the first ruled by Theodor, brother of Gediminas of Lithuania; and the second by Yuri II, also from the Piast dynasty.

To the north, the Teutonic and Livonian Orders, which conquered the lands of Prussia and Livonia a century ago, are at war against Poland and Lithuania, after a long-established rivalry.

Also, a side note: we will talk about Moldavia in the Tinto Maps devoted to the Carpathian region, as it’s currently in a ‘placeholder’ spot.


Diplomacy.jpg

A new map mode, the Diplomatic one! The game starts with an ongoing war between Poland, Lithuania, and their respective vassals, on one side, and the Teutonic and Livonian Orders, and Bohemia and its vassals, on the other.

Locations
Locations.jpg

Here you have the locations of Poland, Lithuania, Ruthenia, and the Baltic region. Some issues that have already been reported by our Polish coworkers are the inconsistencies in the location naming in Polish (we’ll use proper Polish letters more thoroughly), and we’ve also started to review both the Polish and Baltic locations based on the early feedback you gave us. Oh, also, the Vistula and Curonian Lagoons missing is a bug, we’ll properly re-add them while doing the map review.

Provinces
Province.jpg

Any suggestions for provincial naming are pretty welcome, as in the last DD!

Terrain
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg


Cultures
Cultures.jpg

The Baltic lands have an interesting mix of different cultures. ‘Western Baltic’ culture represents the people speaking a West Baltic language (Old Prussians, Yotvingians, Curonians, etc.), while ‘Prussian’ is the culture of the German settlers of that area; on that style, we have a ‘Baltic German’ culture in the lands of Livonia and Estonia that also got settled by German-speaking people. The divide between Polish, Ruthenian, and Aukstaitian might be too deep, so we will most likely add a bit more mixed situation in the borders between these cultures.

Religions
Religions.jpg

A region with a more interesting religious setup! Apart from the Catholic-Orthodox divide, you can also see the Romuva religion, which was a hot topic in 1337 (shall the Dukes of Lithuania convert to Catholicism, or stay Pagan?). Red stripes to the north are other Animist populations. Also, disregard the Sunni region to the southeast, as we have to review all the pops of the Pontic Steppes, as well.

Raw Goods
Raw Goods.jpg

From the distribution of the materials, maybe a couple of things might catch your eye. The first is that there’s an Amber good present on the shores of the Baltic Sea. The second is that the Tatra Mountains, in Slovakia, have a bunch of precious metals, which makes them a very interesting area to exploit and develop.

Population
Pops.jpg

Pops 2.png

The population of the region is divided into country and location views. Two notes: The total population of Estonia is not 711K people, that’s the total for its owner, Denmark. Second, we’ve read your feedback regarding the population map mode, and we’ll take a look at how to improve the visualization of the data, making it better for you.

EDIT: Markets
Markets.jpg

And that’s all for today! The region that we'll show next week is Italy! Cheers!
 
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Exactly!

Łomża was definitely more important than Wizna. It is worth noting that Casmir the Great founded a gord near Łomża called Nowogrod. Ostrołęka, on the other hand, is the oldest city in this part of Mazovia (although this is shocking) and was the seat of the Ostrołęka Land, where the Kurpiowska Forest was located, where amber and honey were mined.

And Polish nationalism is creeping in here again. Unfortunately, this was to be expected.This week, the Polish president vetoed the law recognizing Silesian as a regional language. So since this is a fresh topic, many Polish nationalists will write nonsense - because they cannot understand what the concept of "nation" meant before the emergence of nationalist ideology.


Have you talked to them? The fact is that it was a border area where the influences of several cultures clashed. It is most reasonable to give Polish culture as the dominant culture in this location and Silesian culture as the second largest culture in the province.


I think they are combined into one. Kashubia covers only the eastern area marked on the map (Danzig, Tuchel, Stolp). So Kashubian culture represents both Kashubians and Polabians and also Slavic Pommeranian.


Yes. Nowy Sącz province should be a Gorals province.


X D

Do you know that in the 15th century there were only minor differences in the West Slavic languages, which is why Czech and Polish had minor language differences?It is true that Polish nationalism is the most irrational because it denies the foundations of science. Polish peasants from central Poland in the interwar period (1920s-1930s) were made aware of their nationality by the Polish state.

Here we go again...
Lol, dude named "Teutonic Knight" running around accusing people of being nationalists wasn't on my list of clown shows to witness for today.
 
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Why no Belarusian Ethnic group like in EU4? What changed in the span of 100 years??? The Ruthenial culture is just one big blob, it should be divided into seperate subdivisions, even lithuania is divided!
 
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Already mentioned that Zakopane shouldn't be the location name (however unfortunate it may be to lose your birthplace), and instead be Nowy Targ (Given city rights in 1346) - it would be neat however if it had it's original/older name of 'Stare Cło' with significant clergy estate pops until given city rights. If you give it 'city rights' it changes to the name of 'Nowy Targ' - by all means however the location should be called 'Podhale' as opposed to any particular 'settlement' which I think is a requirement.

I'm unsure whether the province shape of Nowy Sacz fits the way that the area at the time functioned with Górals governing themselves with some autonomy but I'm unsure if crossing it over to Hungary/bohemia or extending from Nowy Sacz to Zywiec and naming it 'Tatra' is any better. Regardless the Krakow/Tarnow/Nowy Sacz provinces do look clunky in their shape.

A separate culture for the gorals is probably unnecessary (and might hurt success of any slovak rebellion against hungary if gorals are added across their historic range accurately) unless it would serve the purpose of making the area harder to govern. After all though it wouldn't hurt as a singular block of Polish/ruthenian cultures isn't all too accurate for the time period and 'Rusyn' already got separated from 'Ruthenian/Slovak'. Wouldn't hurt to give them their other minority mountaineering siblings.

If a goral culture is added and some flavour for the region is needed you can make a peasant republic (Podhale Republic in history or a dynamic name based on original location in game) spawn if a location with goral culture/minority reaches high peasant estate influence and if not squashed fast enough neighboring provinces join the peasant republic from across the culture. Or add it in part with the cossack wars/fall of the Commonwealth.

Now, a map of the north carpathians region with how the cultures there should look 'kind of', as by all means the image shows the general area of where they were/might've been historically and ofcourse depending on the ethnographic scholar you might get other interpretations, such as lemkos not being on those southern slopes (so presov and humene would be yellow instead of green) or that they don't exist.
If the cultures are too small separately (Boyko/Dolynian/Hutsul/Lemko) then they should be combined into the one Rusyn culture, and górals (Góroly in podhalski) if you intend to add more cultures to fracture the horrible polish/ruthenian culture blob. I'm not sure when/how the Pannonian/Silesian Rusyns came along so I'll just say they don't exist.

Screenshot_3.png
 
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Lol, dude named "Teutonic Knight" running around accusing people of being nationalists wasn't on my list of clown shows to witness for today.

What's wrong with my nickname? I think I guessed what...

Said @Teutonic_Knight_2000 .

Yes. A Pole with that nickname said it.
 
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First of all, it's not Bismarck but Kaiser Wilhelm II (this mistake at the very beginning says a lot about your knowledge of history) !!! Secondly, I am a Pole who looks at history objectively - which is totally unPolish.

Most Poles look at history emotionally, which is wrong and irrational - hence there are huge abuses and intellectual limitations (because everything is primitively shallow).
You write about polish nationalism but in this reply you showed great amount of ethnic bigotry towards polish people
 
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Will there be any special mechanics related to this war? From 1332 sign a truce beetwen Poles and Czechs/order and from that there were no war struggles beside occupation Kuyavia and Łęczyca from the Order. Since then, negotiations have stared including the Pope. I hope there game will no start with classic war cuz that is not historical at all.

Why all silesian vassal is in war with Poland expesially duchy of Jawor who was independent and other way "allied" with Piast King.

I think more Prussian land should have more march province.

Why Poland don't have claims on Chełmno? Some duke from Poland give Teoutons this land but de jure was still in Kingdom of Poland. They signed that new conquer land from baltic pagan will stays into knight hands but they should afterwards return Chełmno to Poles. They break a agreement so Poland should have a claim on that. It's weird that you don't put this cuz in eu4 you include that LOL.
 
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Here my comment regarding Culture in Poland

1. As some mentioned before Polish culture (if it to be included instead of more accurate, Greater Polan/Lesser Polan/Mazovian/Podlahian division) shouldn't reach Suwałki as it was Lithuanian. + Polish cultures to the east shouldn't follow modern-day Poland's borders as it just looks inaccurate and artificial (In particular in East-North of Poland Podlasie region)

2. Border between Polish and Ruthenian in the south-east should be also have a mix of Polish/Ruthenian pops on either side of the border since this region, often reffered as "Grody Czerwieńskie" in Polish was the point of contest between Kyivan Rus and Early Poland for centuries. Originally this region was populated by western-slavic Lendians tribe, closer to Poland.

3. "Western Baltic" culture should be renamed to "Pruthenia" or "Pruthenian".

4. In Intersburg Province, Northern half of Ortelsburg Province and Northern parts of Wizna/Białystok/Grodno Provinces should have Yotvingian culture (Part of Baltic culture family). In the last 100 years they're broken by crusades of Poland/Teutonic Order but still they should be included.

Here part of about Terrain.

1. Mazovia region should include more "Marsh" provinces. As the literal name of Mazovia(Mazowsze) translates to "People covered in Mud"

2. South Poland should include "Świętokrzyskie Mountains" with Hills/Plateau provinces

3. In East/North of Mazovia there should be more forrest provinces simulating "Białowieża" Natural forrest.

4. Large forrest in South-East Poland look strange as there is a Vistula river and terrain around it was heavily cultivated by agriculture
 
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any info about that kiev or kyiv state in there ? i thought the city was in ruin since its destruction in 1240 by mongols till the 1600s when it was rebuilt and given to the cossacks of zaporizhia
 
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Someone probably already wrote this down, but I guess it wouldn't hurt to write all my comments and questions again.

Notes on the diplomatic map:

In 1337, there is an armistice during the Polish-Teutonic War (1327-1332), not an active war.

The last armed event was: "On August 15, Łokietek, supported by the Hungarians, attacked the Chełmno land through Masovia", then: "mediation began with the participation of the papal legate Peter of Alwernia, ending with a truce."

1717172448141.png


Source: article from Polish Wikipedia The Polish-Teutonic War (1327–1332) (I cannot provide a link because it treats the message as spam)

1717172456026.png


The above source translated with Google Translator

Hungary took part in the war on the Polish side

1717172464357.png


Source: article from Wikipedia The Polish-Teutonic War (1327–1332)

1337 is between the Congress of Visegrád (1335), where an arbitration court was held in the case of Kujawy and Pomerania, which ended:

1717172473923.png


Source: article from Polish Wikipedia Congress of Visegrád (1335)

1717172481663.png


The above source translated with Google Translator

and the Warsaw trial of 1339, which ended:

1717172491824.png


Source: article from Polish Wikipedia The Warsaw Trial of 1339

1717172498909.png


The above source translated with Google Translator

The war in 1337 was not a stereotypical war with battles and sieges, but rather endless court trials, so it would be nice if it was presented that way.

Notes on the terrain map:

Masuria should have swamps

1717172506549.png


Source: article from Polish Wikipedia Warmian-Masurian Voivodeship

Notes on the cultural map:

I would consider adding Gorals cultural group:

1717172514540.png


Source: article from Wikipedia Gorals

1717172522201.png


and Lemkos:

1717172528021.png


Source: article from Wikipedia Lemkos

1717172534484.png


Notes on the religious map

Estonia should continue to be mostly pagan. In 1343, Saint George's Night Uprising took place, as a result of which pagan Estonians murdered mainly German Catholics.

Source: article from Wikipedia Saint George's Night Uprising

I have a few more questions:

Will the Black Death spare Poland?

1717172542841.png


Source: article from Britannica Black Death

What will the issue of Jews in Poland look like? Migration caused by Black Death persecution. Greater tolerance than in Western European countries (Statute of Kalisz).

1717172549834.png


Source: article from Wikipedia History of the Jews in Poland

1717172556264.png


Source: article from Wikipedia Statute of Kalisz

Will the Congress of Visegrád be an international organization?

1717172565655.png


Source: article from Wikipedia Congress of Visegrád (1335)

Will the Galicia-Volhynia succession crisis be taken into account?

1717172867066.png


Source: article from Wikipedia Galicia–Volhynia Wars

I would like to apologize for my poor English.
 
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If we receive feedback about it, it might be possible. ;)
YES PLEASE! Having more Kashubian representation in Project Caesar would be very appreciated. :p

I know that other players, such as @promant and @Teutonic_Knight_2000 already wrote a lot of suggestions, so I wanted to contribute as well by comparing Polish, Kashubian and German names, as well as adding more of them. I hope that this will be useful.

The order of the names is as follows:
Polish name on the left / Kashubian name in the middle / German name on the right

(The name that is originally written on the location/province map is Bold and blue, so You can quickly find it)

NOTE: Some Kashubian names have different variations, so they could look different, depending on who You ask. I chose the ones that in my opinion are the most common or were often used during the game's timeframe.

Dynamic names of Locations (mostly in Kashubian mainland and neighbouring land) :


Lębork / Lãbórg / Lauenburg
Malbork / Malbórg / Marienburg
Puck / Pùck / Putzig
Kartuzy / Kartuzë / Karthaus
Kościerzyna / Kòscérzna / Berent
Bytów / Bëtowò / Bütow
Tuchola / Tëchòlô / Tuchel
Słuchów / Człuchòwò / Schlochau
Sławno / Słôwno / Schlawe
Miastko / Miastkò / Rummelsburg
Słupsk / Stôłpsk[ò] / Stolp
Szczecinek / Szczecënkò / Neustettin
Białogard / Biôłogarda / Belgard
Koszalin / Kòszalëno / Köslin
Bobolice / Bubòlc / Bublitz
Drawsko / Drôwa / Dramburg
Wałcz / Wôłcz / Arnskrone
Wieleń / Wieléń / Filehne
Choszczno / Chòsczno / Arnswalde
Strzelce / Strzelcé / Friedeberg
Resko / Réga / Regenwalde
Świdwin / Swiédwino / Schivelbein {Name is not visible on the screenshot, but I assume that is the name of the location between "Regenwalde" and "Belgard"]
Gdańsk / Gdúnjsk / Danzig
Złotów / Złotowò / Flatow
Wyrzysk
/ Wërzëskò / Wyritz
Bydgoszcz / Bëdgòszcza / Bromberg
Chełmno / Chôłmno / Kulm
Świecie / Swiecé / Schwetz
Tczew / Dërszewò / Dirschau
Kwidzyn / Kwidzëno / Marienwerder

Dynamic names of Provinces:


Koszalin / Kòszalëno / Köslin
Słupsk / Stôłpskò / Stolp
Wałcz / Wôłcz / Arnskrone
Tuchola / Tëchòlô / Tuchel
Gdańsk / Gdúnjsk / Danzig
Chełmno / Chôłmno / Kulm
Malbork / Malbórg / Marienburg
Królewiec / Króléwc / Königsberg
Poznań
/ Pòznóń / Posen
Kościan / Kòscan / Kosten
Kalisz / Kalëszk / Kallies
Kraków / Krakòwò / Krakau
Nowy Sącz / Nowi Sóncz / Neu Sandec
Opole / Òpòle / Oppeln
Śrem {It should be the name of the province instead of Koźmin} / Srëm / Schrimm



PS. If other Kashubian/Polish players think I made a mistake somewhere, feel free to point it out! Dziękuję. :D
 
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There will be an event for Warsaw.
Warsaw also was a place in which the court was taking place between Casimir III The Great's Poland and Teutonic Order over the Pomorze Gdańskie, and Kulm(Chełmno) regions. It was held there twice and twice Teutonic Order lost legal battle to keep those lands. Warsaw deserves to be a location prior to 1569 like in EU4 + Poland should have some very-very strong core/claims over Pomorze Gdańskie region.
 
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You write about polish nationalism but in this reply you showed great amount of ethnic bigotry towards polish people
You're not very bright if you don't understand that I'm Polish myself.
*Self-hating Pole.
I would say more of a conscious Pole (who knows that Poles don't learn from mistakes -therefore, they make less wise decisions as time goes on). Even Piłsudski said about Poles that "the nation is wonderful, but the people are wh*res." Funnily enough, he was also (causing a civil war innocently called the "May Coup"; establishing concentration camps for the opposition (Bereza Kartuska); liquidation of the Regency Council of the Kingdom of Poland, thanks to which Poland became the authoritarian socialist sh*t of the leftist Sanation; escape from the Soviet hordes during the Polish-Soviet War - after winning the Battle of Warsaw, he took credit for the victory).
 
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Hi, you mentioned inconsistencies in Polish names with regards to the Polish letters, but I’m also a little confused about the language choices for locations in Eastern Pomerania. You went for the German names for most locations in the area (which makes sense given that the area is under Teuton control), but some names are in Polish - in particular Malbork (founded by the Teutonic Order as Marienburg in 1274) and the more interesting case - my home town of Lębork.

The correct name for the location in 1337 I’m a little uncertain about: it existed as a Slavic town of Lewino before the Teuton takeover of Pomerelia and got refounded as a German town of Lewinburg (which over time changed to Lauenburg) in 1341. The name Lębork is a later translation into Polish back from German. Wikipedia seems to suggest the name was Germanised from Lewino to Lewin in 1310, which is how Lewinburg came about in 1341 (it even quotes a source, but I can’t verify it rn :/)

The above probably isn’t very relevant, because doesn’t make sense to script so many name changes for such a minor location in a game like this but Lębork doesn’t seem right either way. So I guess my question is - are you planing to revisit the language versions of location names in Poland? :)
 
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Some more historical maps. Let's start with the map from 1695, the most old and accurate map of Kiev. If you zoom it, you'll see some text in old Russian that I can't properly translate all, but it says град (?) Києва, the city of Kijev, if you transliterate it. It also says план Кіева on the left, the map of Kiev, which is still very different from ukrainian Київ, Kyiv. The second map is from 1739, Kiev here is named Kiof (which is still very different from Kyiv as pronunciation but is very similar to polish Kijow or Kijev as Киёв). The last one is from 1787, made in Russian Empire, and old russian writing before the revolution, when in Russian letter "i" was still used before using "и" instead which is similar but not the same. The whole third map is atteched below because it's really huge so you can zoom and check it yourself.

This said, I don't see any reason from historical point of view why the city or region should be named Kyiv and not Kiev.
View attachment 1717173733611.png
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