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Tinto Maps #4 - 31th of May 2024 - Poland, Ruthenia, Baltic

Hello everyone, and welcome to the fourth Tinto Maps! The feedback that we've received so far has been great, and there will be news soon regarding the map fixes that we've already done.

This week we are showing you Poland, Lithuania, Ruthenia, and the Baltic region. Let’s check it with no further ado:

Countries
Countries.jpg

A bigger picture of what’s going on in this region today, as we hadn’t shown it entirely before. To the west, the Kingdom of Poland is ruled by Casimir III of the House of Piast. It is not a completely unified kingdom, as there are several powerful vassals under him, most of them also Piasts themselves.

To the east, the Duchy of Lithuania is ruled by Gediminas, who has greatly expanded the influence of the country into Russian lands (side note: Gediminas entitled himself in his diplomatic correspondence ‘king’, but was considered by the Pope ‘king or duke’, and the title of Grand Duke wouldn’t be formally adopted until later [most likely replicating the Russian title ‘Grand Prince’]. That’s why Lithuania starts as a Duchy, although it will have an event that would make it possible to adopt the dynamic country name of ‘Grand Duchy’).

To the south, the principalities of Kyiv and Galicia-Volhynia have recently fallen under foreign influence, the first ruled by Theodor, brother of Gediminas of Lithuania; and the second by Yuri II, also from the Piast dynasty.

To the north, the Teutonic and Livonian Orders, which conquered the lands of Prussia and Livonia a century ago, are at war against Poland and Lithuania, after a long-established rivalry.

Also, a side note: we will talk about Moldavia in the Tinto Maps devoted to the Carpathian region, as it’s currently in a ‘placeholder’ spot.


Diplomacy.jpg

A new map mode, the Diplomatic one! The game starts with an ongoing war between Poland, Lithuania, and their respective vassals, on one side, and the Teutonic and Livonian Orders, and Bohemia and its vassals, on the other.

Locations
Locations.jpg

Here you have the locations of Poland, Lithuania, Ruthenia, and the Baltic region. Some issues that have already been reported by our Polish coworkers are the inconsistencies in the location naming in Polish (we’ll use proper Polish letters more thoroughly), and we’ve also started to review both the Polish and Baltic locations based on the early feedback you gave us. Oh, also, the Vistula and Curonian Lagoons missing is a bug, we’ll properly re-add them while doing the map review.

Provinces
Province.jpg

Any suggestions for provincial naming are pretty welcome, as in the last DD!

Terrain
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg


Cultures
Cultures.jpg

The Baltic lands have an interesting mix of different cultures. ‘Western Baltic’ culture represents the people speaking a West Baltic language (Old Prussians, Yotvingians, Curonians, etc.), while ‘Prussian’ is the culture of the German settlers of that area; on that style, we have a ‘Baltic German’ culture in the lands of Livonia and Estonia that also got settled by German-speaking people. The divide between Polish, Ruthenian, and Aukstaitian might be too deep, so we will most likely add a bit more mixed situation in the borders between these cultures.

Religions
Religions.jpg

A region with a more interesting religious setup! Apart from the Catholic-Orthodox divide, you can also see the Romuva religion, which was a hot topic in 1337 (shall the Dukes of Lithuania convert to Catholicism, or stay Pagan?). Red stripes to the north are other Animist populations. Also, disregard the Sunni region to the southeast, as we have to review all the pops of the Pontic Steppes, as well.

Raw Goods
Raw Goods.jpg

From the distribution of the materials, maybe a couple of things might catch your eye. The first is that there’s an Amber good present on the shores of the Baltic Sea. The second is that the Tatra Mountains, in Slovakia, have a bunch of precious metals, which makes them a very interesting area to exploit and develop.

Population
Pops.jpg

Pops 2.png

The population of the region is divided into country and location views. Two notes: The total population of Estonia is not 711K people, that’s the total for its owner, Denmark. Second, we’ve read your feedback regarding the population map mode, and we’ll take a look at how to improve the visualization of the data, making it better for you.

EDIT: Markets
Markets.jpg

And that’s all for today! The region that we'll show next week is Italy! Cheers!
 
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Białystok province should be renamed "Podlasie", Białystok is just the capital-biggest city of this Province (Or Voivodeship in Polish)
This is how it should be. The historical capital of Podlasie is Drohiczyn - today a small town.

I also think that in place of "Polish" there should be; Greater Polan, Lesser Polan, Mazovian, Podlahian cultures. Poland united just in 1320 and the previous 200 years was the time of constant civil wars between regional duchies and not unified Poland.
There should be an option to later unify those cultures and "rebirth" Poland, from pre-1138 tribal country to feudal unified state.
Finally a sensible and logically thinking compatriot here. Although Podlasie was not in Poland until the Union of Lublin (1569) and I think it could be an area where the cultures of Masovia and Polesie (western Belarusian) mix.
A couple things:
Polish shouldn't reach as far as Suwalki, this was historically a region of Lithuania that was settled by Poles only during the Commonwealth period. Historically it was inhibited by the Yotvingi people.

Kashubian refers only to one region of Pommerania (Kaszuby). The Kashubian people are indeed modern descendants of the mediaeval Slavic Pommeranians but so were the Słowińcë, a group of Slavs living more to the west.

It would be logical to do something similar you did with Silesian - German Silesian and do Pommeranian - German Pommeranian (The name Pommerania itself is Slavic in origin with its meaning being something akin to "Seaside").

When it comes to the Slovaks, they should be a majority much more south. You seem to be used 19th century linguistic borders that were the result of an intensive policy of magyarisation on the Hungarian part.

Furthermore, it would be nice to see some pagan Slavic pops, especially in Pommerania and Masovia as these regions proved the most difficult to Christianise historically. Some pagan traditions are observed to this very day and one would imagine they would be even more widespread back then.
I agree with everything!
 
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And Polish nationalism is creeping in here again. Unfortunately, this was to be expected.This week, the Polish president vetoed the law recognizing Silesian as a regional language. So since this is a fresh topic, many Polish nationalists will write nonsense - because they cannot understand what the concept of "nation" meant before the emergence of nationalist ideology.
Brother, I live in Silesia. I was born here, and spent most of my life here. That's why I'm invested in people representing it's unique hot-potato history accurately, and not though a lens of "XXIth century politician bad!" of some guy who lives on the other side of the country but feels entitled to speak on the behalf of my ancestor for some bizarre reason.
 
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Am i forgoting something, but is it the first time (exepet the "alternate start date in EU4") that the game start and there is war ongoing ?

i don't think there is any of those in EU4 and we can maybe extend this to others games like Vic 3, CK3 or even HOI4 witch is insane when we talk of a game on the 2nd world war.

And with this info, i think we can expect other "wars on the start date" in the rest of the world ? am i right ?
100YW used to be on in eu4
 
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I find it strange that the population in the east and south of East Prussia is so high, compared to the Lithuanian population on the other side of the border and the population closer to Königsberg.
The south and east of East Prussia was known as the Great Wilderness and all the sources I've seen talk about it have said that it was barely populated in the 14th century. The Lithuanian numbers look correct, but why are the Prussian ones so high then? Shouldn't they also be around 4000 in each location?

See also this map in the top right:
IMG_20240528_213350.jpg

High population in the western part of East Prussia and in Poland to the south of East Prussia, but low population in the Great Wilderness.
 
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It is imporant to remember that these are not the modern swedish provinces but the remnants of the old tribal regions of Sweden, the eastern lands of the Geats. It is later on that the Scandinavian kingdoms deviate from these tribal regions. Both Norway and Sweden had the same kind of division of land where older tribal borders were the norm.
Yes, they are called "Landskap" and the "Landskap" shown on the map is called "Östergötland", but written as "Östra Götaland". Götaland, being one of the three (formerly four) regions of Sweden. Southern Sweden is/was Götaland. "Östra Götaland" thus refers to the eastern half of this region. Östergötland, on the other hand is one of the historical provinces of Sweden. I am just repeating myself, but hopefully this more thorough description will be helpful.
 
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Hi, as someone already have mentioned it, I think, that golub Dobrzyń should be renamed for "Golub" (or German Gollub) - Dobrzyń is a part of the city founded at the end of XVII century. Also Lipno should be Dobrzyń, cause it is part od Ziemia Dobrzyńska - as it is in EU4. Also location Wyrzysk should be renamed for Nakło as it was far more important castle and city, exactly like Brześć Kujawski and Radziejów (Brześć was a capital of duchy),. My suggestion also, is changinf name of provinces from Żnin > Krajna and Lipno > Dobzyń or Brześć. Cheers, you are doing great job!
 
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I see a number of issues in this setup in regards to Poland. I will focus mostly on the Poland-Teutonic Order border area, namely Pomerelia (Pomorze wschodnie), Kuyavia (Kujawy), Chełmno/Kulm Land (Ziemia chełmińska) and Dobrzyń Land (Ziemia dobrzyńska). Also, I know that "region" has a specific meaning in the game as a group of locations, but I'm going to use its colloquial meaning throughout this post.

1. At the moment Kuyavia and Dobrzyń land are split between Teutonic Order (locations of Bydgoszcz and Golub-Dobrzyń), Duchy of Inowrocław, which might be a Polish vassal (Inowrocław, Lipno and Rypin) and Teutonic Order-occupied part of Poland (Włocławek and Radziejów). This is wrong. This whole region should be either fully occupied, or fully directly controlled by Teutonic Order. Notably, Duchy of Inowrocław never had borders such as those portrayed and did not exist in 1337.

The region's situation in 1337 is a result of Polish–Teutonic War (1326–1332). Before the war, it was politically split between Kingdom of Poland and its three vassal duchies, ruled by Przemysł of Inowrocław, Kazimierz of Gniewkowo and Władysław the Hunchback of Dobrzyń. Expecting Teutonic attack, king Władysław the Elbow-high of Poland made two of them exchange their lands for safer regions in the middle of the country: Przemysł got Sieradz, while Władysław got Łęczyca. By 1332 the whole region got occupied by the Teutonic Order and a truce was signed. The truce was then extended a number of times, but no peace was signed for years. In 1335 a proposal was made by John of Bohemia and Charles Robert of Hungary, that Poland will get Kuyavia and Dobrzyń Land back while dropping claims to Pomerelia and Chełmno Land, but it wasn't accepted by either side. Finally, in 1343 the Treaty of Kalisz was signed: Poland regained Kuyavia and Dobrzyń Land and accepted that Pomerelia and Chełmno Land will stay with Teutonic Order for now without completely ruling out future claims.

I'm not sure if portraying this situation as an active war is the best choice. Perhaps it would be better if the whole region was part of the Teutonic Order at the game start, but there was some event chain corresponding to the Treaty of Kalisz. If you decide on day-one war, then instead of Duchy of Inowrocław there should be occupied locations of Łęczyca (Lipno, Rypin, Golub-Dobrzyń), Sieradz (Inowrocław) and Poland (Bydgoszcz, Włocławek, Radziejów).

2. It seems that you mixed up two modern towns with "Dobrzyń" in their names. Golub-Dobrzyń was created in 1951 and should not be a location in 1337 as its "Dobrzyń" part didn't even exist back then. Dobrzyń Land is named after Dobrzyń nad Wisłą, located 60 km south, within your location of Lipno. Golub was a town in historical Chełmno Land, but only some of the northernmost pixels of your Golub-Dobrzyń location are in Chełmno Land - most are in Dobrzyń Land. My suggestion is to move these pixels to Toruń and redistribute Dobrzyń Land between three locations, named Lipno, Rypin and Dobrzyń (nad Wisłą can be dropped). The province also should be renamed from Lipno to Dobrzyń.

Locations of Radziejów and Włocławek should be moved to province of Inowrocław, while Toruń should be removed from it (see below). Then the whole thing can be named Kuyavia. Consider also adding locations of Brześć Kujawski (historically, it was capital of a duchy and later, of a voivodeship) and Gniewkowo (it was a capital of the last of the Kuyavian duchies to be annexed back into Poland).

3. The question over status of Chełmno (Kulm) Land was an important one in 1337. Your Kulm province does not correspond with historical borders of Kulm Land and I believe it should. Thus, it should consist of the following locations: Thorn (Toruń), Kulm (Chełmno), Graudenz (Grudziądz) and Löbau (Lubawa). The large location of Löbau should also be split in two - its eastern part should be based on Lubawa Land, while the western part, belonging to Chełmno Land proper, should be named after Strasburg (Brodnica).

4. Cultures: this setup portrays Old Prussian settlement as reaching further west that it ever did. Danzig (Gdańsk/Gduńsk), Dirschau (Tczew/Dërszewò), Schwetz (Świecie), Graudenz (Grudziądz) and Strasburg (Brodnica) [if created] should have no (or negligible amount of) Western Baltic pops. Lower Vistula was an eastern border of Pomerelia for hundreds of years before 1337 and Chełmno Land was an object of frequent Old Prussian raids, but they weren't living there. Thus, Danzig, Dirschau and Schwetz should have Kashubian majority and German-Prussian minority (with Danzig having most arguments to reverse majority-minority between these two cultures) while Graudenz and Strasburg should have Polish majority and German-Prussian minority. If you split Löbau, then the eastern part can stay Baltic, but if you don't, then you should add Polish pops there, making the majority of the population in the large location Polish.

5. Some of the most glaring issues outside of this area:
  • Mazovian duchies of Płock, Rawa and Czersk should not be Polish vassals - or even allies - in 1337.
  • While in "my" region, Polish culture is underrepresented, the situation is reversed elsewhere. Notably, it reaches way too far east - all the locations that are part of Lithuania and Galicia-Volhynia should not be majority Polish at the game start, most should not have Polish population at all. They only got polonized in the following centuries, after becoming part of Poland/Commonwealth.
  • There is a number of issues with locations and provinces. The ones I noticed so far are: Sieradz not being a province capital over Wieluń; Płock being on the wrong side of Vistula river and its province completely not matching historical Płock Voivodeship; Drohiczyn (historical capital of Podlasie) not being even a location.
 
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Can we expect Kashubian dynamic province names? :D


If we receive feedback about it, it might be possible. ;)


Here you go:
Danzig -> Gduńsk
Butow -> Bëtowò
Karthaus -> Kartuzë
Berent -> Kòscérzna
Putzig -> Pùck
Lebork -> Lãbórg
Stolp -> Stołpskò
Koslin -> Kòszalëno
Stettin -> Szcecëno
Tuchel -> Tëchòlô
Belgard -> Biôłogarda
Schlawe -> Słôwno
Flatow -> Złotowò
Schwetz -> Swiecé
Dirschau -> Dërszewò
Malbork -> Malbórg
Poznan -> Pòznóń
Bydgoszcz -> Bëdgòszcza
Wyrzysk -> Wërzëskò

Useful references:


Kashubian is still very much a living language, and it actually has some useful Wikipedia articles with references, too.
 
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Population number map mode is a bit hard to read. Did you considered it also be a heat map along with numbers? Like Green to Red shift or Dark green to Bright Green? So that high population Locations would be distinguishable without reading a number.

For example, I have a thing that I myself call it, a numerical dyslexia (not an actual diagnosed thing, again my personal thing), where I look at many numbers and I cannot read them unless I look at them for a minute to understand what it actually means. So all these population numbers are blurring together for me. And I bet some people also have this kind of thing and adding a heatmap to population map mode would not only help people like me, but will also make things better for people that can read numbers in such amount.
 
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Some maps via Cambridge Studies in Medieval Life & Thought - "Lithuania Ascending" by SC Rowell
View attachment 1141227
View attachment 1141228
View attachment 1141229
So a couple items from the maps I've linked any game maps of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania
  1. Calling it "Duchy of Lithuania" vs Grand Duchy makes no sense. I am not aware of any document referring to either Lithuania nor referred to by Lithuanians themselves of them as a "Duchy".
  2. Lithuanian Kyiv controls too much territory south. The Golden Horde should have what you've labeled Bratslav and Vinnytsia
    1. Admitted these boarders especially around Vinnytsia are not static but hard to represent that in game so i'd err on giving them to the golden horde
  3. Kyiv is a modern spelling I don't much care for it in context though my knowledge of transliterating from cryllic isn't sufficient to offer a better choice
  4. Galicia-Volhynia controls territiory that should be alligned with lithuania
    1. Id say Dubno; Rivne; Ostoh; Korets and east ward should be part of Kyiv
    2. Ratne should be as well
  5. Pskov should be allied or dependent on Lithuania
    1. "Teutonic crusaders and the ravages of other Rus'ian princes. Pskov became a virtual client of the grand duke of Lithuania from 1322 until around 1400." (pg. 22)
  6. Location naming changes
    1. Lyakhavichy > Novogorodok
    2. Vawkavysk > Dubno
    3. Merkine > Alytus
    4. Ashmyany > Medininkai/Asmena - hard for me to place without rivers :(
    5. Hieraniony > Asmena/Kreva - same as above, hard to place without rivers
    6. Svencionys > Videniskes
  7. Trade Kyiv market should extend northwest-wards; perhaps as far as Grondno

edit - fixing quote year
Kyiv should be called "Kyuev" or "Kiev" as it was the pronounciation of the time. Also Vinnitsa should be called "Vinnichya" for "Вѣничя" also pronounciation of the time. There are a lot of anachronistic names in Ukraine, Russia and Belarus they should use "List of Russian Cities, Far and Near" as a reference for names in Kievan Rus.
 
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Speaking about historically accurate names, Kyiv wasn't named Kyiv but was Kiev at the times. I know now it's called Kyiv (and it's mostly because of differences of two languages) but in this historical period it was Kiev, which is confirmed by historical documents of these times. Besides that, I hope that there will be dynamic names of regions/cities etc.
To anyone who probably disagrees (for any reason at all) here is a quote from Primary Chronicle, XII century:
Ини же не свѣдуще рекоша · ꙗко Кии єсть перевозникъ бꙑлъ · ѹ Кїєва бо бѧше перевозъ тогда с оноꙗ сторонꙑ Днѣпра · тѣмь гл͠ху на перевозъ на Києвъ
Києвъ, which is todays russian Киев, Kiev. And some more:
аще бо бꙑ перевозникъ Кии · то не бꙑ ходилъ Ц͠рюгороду но се Кии кнѧжаше в родѣ своємь · и приходившю єму ко ц͠рю . ꙗкоже сказають · ꙗко велику честь приꙗлъ есть ѿ ц͠рѧ · при которомь приходивъ ц͠ри · идущю же єму ѡпѧть · приде къ Дунаєви . и възлюби мѣсто и сруби градокъ малъ и хотѧше сѣсти с родомъ своимъ и не даша єму ту блїзь живущии · єже и донꙑнѣ наречють Дуици городище Киевець · Киеви же пришедшю въ свои градъ Києвъ · ту животъ свои сконча · а братъ єго Щекъ и Хоривъ и сестра ихъ Лꙑбедь ту скончашасѧ
Kiev was Russian and Polish from times to times, so name changed from Kijow to Kiev as well. Also I attach here a map by Johann Homann (late XVII — early XVIII century), a German geographer, which calls Kiev Kiow, which is similar to Киёв or polish Kijow, which is still very different from Kyiv from today.
1717171444396.png
 
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Yes, more russian propaganda. *IT was kiev ITS VERY VERY important ITS VERY historically accurate and crimea was russian TOO*
Dude, I'm a Ukrainian, nobody talks about propaganda or politics, just look at the historical records...
 
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