Tinto Maps #4 - 31th of May 2024 - Poland, Ruthenia, Baltic

[Imperiestro]

Rules of Casimir III(and his father) were about unification of Polish lands, and that includes Silesia, which didn't have separate culture compared to other polish regions. Historically he failed to do so (by falling from his horse), and reclamation of Silesia wasn't on agenda of other polish kings, and so Silesia were to become very slowly, a slightly different thing, but that is not the case for the starting date. The early modern Silesian scholar(whose name I can't remember for the love of God) was absolutely seething about everyone calling him a Pole, and you will find that pretty much all of medieval and early modern sources were treating Silesians as Poles, something that only changed after Frederick started to rewrite history.

But well, I guess I am just another polish nationalist according to Teutonic_Knight_2000, with Bismarck in a profile pic. Talk about having an agenda.

 

[Teutonic_Knight_2000]

Wizna is not located where it is IRL and instead encompases majority of neighbouring Ziemia łomżyńska.

To solve this problem Wizna should be renamed to Łomża and Goniądz to Wizna, as the latter was more important.

Exactly!

Łomża was definitely more important than Wizna. It is worth noting that Casmir the Great founded a gord near Łomża called Nowogrod. Ostrołęka, on the other hand, is the oldest city in this part of Mazovia (although this is shocking) and was the seat of the Ostrołęka Land, where the Kurpiowska Forest was located, where amber and honey were mined.

So I have few comments regarding Political map and Culture map

1. SILESIAN CULTURE

Could I get some explenation why in 1337 Silesian is diverged from Polish, even tho they spoke the same language? (some explenation here: Modern Silesian etnodialect (or language) seperated from main Polish in reneissance, where Polish literature and bases of modern Polish language were made, while Silesia being land outside of Poland didnt get those new changes that happened in Polish in Poland. Silesian is closer language to Old Polish, than Polish itself, but in medieval ages it was still the same thing.) Does it have to do smt with not long German influence? I would like to see Pavia answer my thoughts about that.

Also I hope that every culutre has language assigned to, and that Silesian has Polish, not Silesian, bcz Silesian wasnt a thing yet back then.


2. SILESIAN COUNTIES

2.1. Political affiliation
You represented whole Region of Silesia as members of HRE. And that is completely inaccurate. While most of Silesian duchies few years prior swear fealty to Czech King, it doesnt meant that all of them did. Duchies of Jawor, Świdnica and Nysa were the only Silesian duchies that didnt swear fealty to the Bohemians at the time, so Idk why are they portrayed as part of HRE if they never were a part of it. Duchy of Nysa became vassal of Bohemia in 1342, Duchies of Jawor and Świdnica merged in 1346, and finally became vassals of Bohemia in 1368, after the death of Bolko II.
Also the thing I would like to mention, is that Poland should have cores all over Silesia. Why? Because till 1348, when Charles IV and Casimir The Great made a peace in Namysłów, where Casimir relinquished his rights to Silesia, and Silesia became De Jure part of Bohemian Crown, not Polish. So till 1348 all of Silesia was De Jure still part of Poland, not Bohemia and HRE.

2.1. Duchy of Jawor
So I already mentioned, that Jawor was never part of HRE. Also as far as I can see, the borders of the Duchy are HUGE. As far as I can see, you made the Duchy of Głogów and Duchy of Świdnica part of Jawor. Duchy of Głogów was given to Henryk II by the Bohemian King to stay neutral in a conflict with Poland. But because of some intrigue in 1345 Henryk joined Polish side of the conflict. Głogów should be shown as a Personal Union with Jawor, but still being a vassal of Bohemia. Świdnica was ruled at the time by Bolko II, brother of Duke Jawor - Henryk II. After the death of Henryk, duchy of Jawor was inherited by Bolko where it became Duchy of Świdnica-Jawor. But in 1337, Świdnica wasnt a part of Personal union, or a vassal of Jawor so you should totally add Świdnica there as ally of Jawor and Poland.
Also it is good to mention that independent Silesian dukes were HUGE supporters of their uncle, Polish King Casimir III the Great. Bolko II from the beggining was for becoming vassal of Poland, but he couldnt bcz of Bohemian threat. They helped Casimir in Polish war for Silesia with Bohemia in 1345-1348 that sadly they lost.

Also you missing a bunch of Duchies over there, let me help you.
I am using video about history of Poland and history of Silesia video from POGKKP. Listen up, I know youtube videos arent the best way of historical information, but POGKKP was doing research for this videos for almost a year. He linked a bunch of historical sources, historical atlases and even consultated everything with his History Profesors from his university. I talked to him once and the guy spends literally hours just to make video as historically accurate as it is possible. I'll show the picture of the info down below.

Also here are several useful sources I found

That's all, I hope that this post will get to Pavia and Tinto team and they will make Jawor independent, bye bye

And Polish nationalism is creeping in here again. Unfortunately, this was to be expected.This week, the Polish president vetoed the law recognizing Silesian as a regional language. So since this is a fresh topic, many Polish nationalists will write nonsense - because they cannot understand what the concept of "nation" meant before the emergence of nationalist ideology.

Also I forgot to mention that Duchy of Oświęcim (Auschwitz) shouldnt be shown as Silesian culture, because Oświęcim was part of Lesser Poland land, and their people used Lesser Polish dialect, traditions and etc.

Have you talked to them? The fact is that it was a border area where the influences of several cultures clashed. It is most reasonable to give Polish culture as the dominant culture in this location and Silesian culture as the second largest culture in the province.

Is Kashubian separate culture from Polabian or have they been merged? If separate, I can send you list of Polabian localisation I did for some CK2 and CK3 mods few years ago.

I think they are combined into one. Kashubia covers only the eastern area marked on the map (Danzig, Tuchel, Stolp). So Kashubian culture represents both Kashubians and Polabians and also Slavic Pommeranian.

I think that entire south od Lesser Poland should be represented as "Górale" in culture group,

Yes. Nowy Sącz province should be a Gorals province.

SIlesian wasnt a thing back then, both Silesian and Polish were one langauge called Old Polish

X D

Do you know that in the 15th century there were only minor differences in the West Slavic languages, which is why Czech and Polish had minor language differences?It is true that Polish nationalism is the most irrational because it denies the foundations of science. Polish peasants from central Poland in the interwar period (1920s-1930s) were made aware of their nationality by the Polish state.

Existence of Silesian culture doesn't make any sense, or at least it doesn't if rest of Poland is all one culture. Polish Silesians were not more different from Poles from Kraków than the ones from Mazovia were. In 14th century only the Silesian dukes had a somewhat unique identity as mostly germanized Piasts who remembered that they originated from kings of Poland, but I don't think one dude per province is enough to justify a separate culture. So I think that either Mazovians and Kuyavians should get equal treatement and get their own cultures (although I don't really see the point in that) or Slavic Silesians should be just Polish.

Here we go again...

 

[HasieEST]

When Christianity was spread via sword to Estonia, Majority of Estonia was nominally Catholic, while Orthodoxy reached and took root in Setumaa (Neuhausen province, Northeastern part). Is that reflected within the pop menu for specified province?

I presume there is some sort of language groups (akin to Culture groups in EU4) when lookin the map I noticed that Livs have drastically different colour compared to Estonians, even though linguistically both are part of the Finnic language group. Is there any deeper meaning behind their colour difference?

As Health pointed out via redrawing the map, Weissenstein (Modern day: Paide) is improperly mapped. Danish king had never conquered the area, which Paide town occupied, during the years 1219 to 1346. Town itself was constructed first as a order's castle in 1265 by Livonian Order and area got its city rights by 1291.


Is there any plans to have Estonian Dynamic names around Estonia and perhaps even further. (For Izborsk dynamical to Petserimaa when under control by an country(ies) that is primary Estonian)

 

[Pavía]

Is this also when Switzerland and Tyrol will show up, or are they separate?

They will appear in the Tinto Maps for the HRE (excluding Italy and the western regions already shown).

 

[Nuxx_13]

Dont wanna be doomer mode but i for myself LOVE recreating histroical borders in Paradox Games. So therefore i belive the locations in the Polish Corridor and East Prussia could maybe be adjusted to achive the 1919 Borders. Love the Possibility for the PERFECT Eastern Border of the Historical German Empire. So props for that one!

 

[Mef]

They will appear in the Tinto Maps for the HRE (excluding Italy and the western regions already shown).

Almost the whole HRE? Sounds like the worst possible thread to follow! Anatolia might be a contender...

 

[Pavía]

When Christianity was spread via sword to Estonia, Majority of Estonia was nominally Catholic, while Orthodoxy reached and took root in Setumaa (Neuhausen province, Northeastern part). Is that reflected within the pop menu for specified province?

I presume there is some sort of language groups (akin to Culture groups in EU4) when lookin the map I noticed that Livs have drastically different colour compared to Estonians, even though linguistically both are part of the Finnic language group. Is there any deeper meaning behind their colour difference?

As Health pointed out via redrawing the map, Weissenstein (Modern day: Paide) is improperly mapped. Danish king had never conquered the area, which Paide town occupied, during the years 1219 to 1346. Town itself was constructed first as a order's castle in 1265 by Livonian Order and area got its city rights by 1291.


Is there any plans to have Estonian Dynamic names around Estonia and perhaps even further. (For Izborsk dynamical to Petserimaa when under control by an country(ies) that is primary Estonian)

Culture colors are scripted, they're usually similar to country colors when possible.

It would be easier for us to add Estonian names if a list is provided here.

 

[Teutonic_Knight_2000]

But well, I guess I am just another polish nationalist according to Teutonic_Knight_2000, with Bismarck in a profile pic. Talk about having an agenda.

First of all, it's not Bismarck but Kaiser Wilhelm II (this mistake at the very beginning says a lot about your knowledge of history) !!! Secondly, I am a Pole who looks at history objectively - which is totally unPolish.

Most Poles look at history emotionally, which is wrong and irrational - hence there are huge abuses and intellectual limitations (because everything is primitively shallow).

 

[Witcher587]

Hi Pavia.
I'm Polish with 10,344h in EU4 and have some comments regarding Kujawy region (currently Innowrocław & Lipno provinces).

1. There was no Innowrocław Duchy in 1337. In 1327 both Duke of Innowrocław Przemysł of Innowrocław and Duke of Dobrzyń Władysław the Hunchback exchanged their Duchies. Przemysł Innowrocław -> Sieradz and Władysław Dobrzyń -> Łęczyca.
King Władysław Łokietek made this deal to gain more controll over the defense against the Teutonic Order IN 1327.

2. Untill 1327 there're three Duchies; Innowrocław, Gniewkowo, Dobrzyń (All of them vassals to Polish King). I already mentioned 2 of them, the last Duchy of Gniewkowo with its Duke Kazimierz III of Gniewkowo was conquered by Teutonic Order during April 1332. Kazimierz III lost his duchy forever.
That's why Kujawy should include "Gniewkowo" location. It was a city-capital of its own Duchy till 1332.

3. Province and Location of "Lipno" should be renamed to Dobrzyń since Lipno wasn't granted town rights till 1349 (it ain't worth the title of location.)

4. "Golub-Dobrzyń" Location(north-west of Lipno) should be renamed Golubia since Golub-Dobrzyń was created only in 1951

Both Innowrocław & Dobrzyń Provinces should look like this:

(should include Gniewkowo Location )

3. Toruń Location should be within 'Kulm' Province as the main part of the city is on the right bank of the Vistula River, outside Kujawy. + It was founded by Teutons.

4.Shwetz Location should be within 'Tuchel' Province as it's traditionally in Pomorze Gdańskie region + it is seperated from rest of Kulm province's locations by Vistula river. Vistula being a natural border between Tuchel and Kulm provinces would look better and more pleasing.

5. Białystok province should be renamed "Podlasie", Białystok is just the capital-biggest city of this Province (Or Voivodeship in Polish)

6. I also think that in place of "Polish" there should be; Greater Polan, Lesser Polan, Mazovian, Podlahian cultures. Poland united just in 1320 and the previous 200 years was the time of constant civil wars between regional duchies and not unified Poland.
There should be an option to later unify those cultures and "rebirth" Poland, from pre-1138 tribal country to feudal unified state.

7. I hope you will later on add Slavic religion in Poland. It still should've been visible minority till the 15th century.

 

[HaxMode]

Warsaw deserves to be a location. I know it's a mere village in 1337, but it became the capital of the country halfway through the expected timespan of Project Caesar and is the capital today.

Many cities have both their own location and a province named after them. Warsaw should too.

 

[Hare'da Irijon]

A couple things:
Polish shouldn't reach as far as Suwalki, this was historically a region of Lithuania that was settled by Poles only during the Commonwealth period. Historically it was inhibited by the Yotvingi people.

Kashubian refers only to one region of Pommerania (Kaszuby). The Kashubian people are indeed modern descendants of the mediaeval Slavic Pommeranians but so were the Słowińcë, a group of Slavs living more to the west.

It would be logical to do something similar you did with Silesian - German Silesian and do Pommeranian - German Pommeranian (The name Pommerania itself is Slavic in origin with its meaning being something akin to "Seaside").

When it comes to the Slovaks, they should be a majority much more south. You seem to have used 19th century linguistic borders that were the result of an intensive policy of magyarisation on the Hungarian part.

Furthermore, it would be nice to see some pagan Slavic pops, especially in Pommerania and Masovia as these regions proved the most difficult to Christianise historically. Some pagan traditions are observed to this very day and one would imagine they would be even more widespread back then.

 

[RouteVenus]

Sephardic and Ashkenazi are different cultures.

Will other Jewish cultures like the Romaniote or Italkim be represented too, or is it just the Sepharadim and Ashkenazim?

 

[Sleelan]

The figure on the map is given for the part of polish lands significantly smaller than what belonged to kingdom of Poland by 1410, less than half of it. And if the population before black death was 1,9 and went to 1,2 later on, more than one third population perishing would probably cause more visible effects, including records. I also think that those estimates counted the numbers for kingdom of Poland together with vassal provinces.

It's not less than half, it's primarily the question of Mazovia. I agree that the situation of Mazovia is very confusing in all the estimated I've looked at, randomly being included or not in the totals. But "being confusing" is not a good substitute for "that's how we know it's this way and not the other."

As for the lack of records, well I did mention them. The records of increased re-forestation and vastly dropping food prices in Lesser Poland (the seat of King). The only two way you can accomplish that is if you suddenly have a lot fewer people to feed, or you've discovered a major new breakthrough in food production. And we have no records of new agricultural breakthroughs.

Finally, the total mortality of the Black Death is estimated between 30%-60%. A drop from something like 1.8m to 1.2m would be entirely on the lower end of those estimates.

 

[Mef]

3. Province and Location of "Lipno" should be renamed to Dobrzyń since Lipno wasn't granted town rights till 1349 (it ain't worth the title of location.)

To add to this, Dobrzyn is where the Order sourced there salt from, so there could be salt in that location.

5. Provinces in Pomorze Gdańskie should be renamed with Polish names since Teutonic Order conquered this land only in 1308/9 year.Danzig to Gdańsk change is obligatory. (If not then you would be hypocrites since Locations in Lithuania like Łosice/Hajnówka/Bielsk-Podlaski are in Polish language.
Majority of this region was Polish/Kashubian
e.g Shwetz -> Świecie, Tuchol -> Tuchola etc.

??????? It's owned by a German speaking country and it's shown on the culture map to be majority German, so why shouldn't it use German names? (Edit: Oh, Danzig itself isn't majority Prussian, but still, the owner is German speaking so would be using the German name)

Warsaw deserves to be a location. I know it's a mere village in 1337, but it became the capital of the country halfway through the expected timespan of Project Caesar and is the capital today.

Many cities have both their own location and a province named after them. Warsaw should too.

There will probably be something to rename the location and make it your capital.

 

[Pavía]

Warsaw deserves to be a location. I know it's a mere village in 1337, but it became the capital of the country halfway through the expected timespan of Project Caesar and is the capital today.

Many cities have both their own location and a province named after them. Warsaw should too.

There will be an event for Warsaw.

 

[Pavía]

Will other Jewish cultures like the Romaniote or Italkim be represented too, or is it just the Sepharadim and Ashkenazim?

There are many Jewish cultures, yes.

 

[Dongerino]

Nonsense

What nonsense? It's like splitting Polish into Lesser and Greater Polish cultures. Moravian being its own culture is nonsense.

 

[redcola]

I Think there should be a mechanic that once all Russian sub culture are united, they will become a new Russian culture instead of fractured culture like Muscovite or Novgorodian, or there should be a chain of event that once the Rus land are united there will be a faster transition from those culture mentioned merged into one Russian culture, I hope I can get a feedback here, thank you

 

[IVM.Firefly]

Lovely map, as usual. Some early thoughts:
1. I would look into adding Drahim/Czaplinek on the Polish-Neumark border. It had a quite unique history.
2 Raciborz to the north of Opole? Should it not be way to the south of Silesia, north only to Cieszyn? The province with the name Raciborz should be Olesno, while Rybnik would probably be more proper to be Raciborz
3. I am not 100% sure, but I think calling the northern-most province of Hungary Oravský Podzámok sounds very anachronistic to me. The literal translation would be Oravan Undercastle, whereas in the middle ages, the local area would logically be more fitting to be called Oravský hrad (or Árvavár in Hungarian), in English, Orava Castle. I will not repeat my feedback regarding the Polish-Hungarian border anachronism, so I'll just say I am looking forward to see the adjusted map
4. Slovakia (where I happen to be from) looks pretty good, although, as I see the thick concentration of locations in Austria and Moravia, I cannot omit some suggestions for new locations:
a. Žilina - a relatively small town that would allow you to neatly split Trencsén location into 2 parts and make use of the nearby impassable mountains for gameplay purposes.
b. Bardejov - a beautiful town in what is currently the location of Prešov. It would also allow you to visualize the large Ruthenian population that lived in the countryside surrounding Bardejov and the local part of the Carpathian mountains
c. Trnava - The oldest town to recieve town rights, located in the Pressburg county, IIRC it became the seat of Esztergom archbishop during the Ottoman conquest of most of Hungary. As a bonus, it allows you to better visualize the roughly even cultural split between Germans (Pressburg), Hungarians (Samorja) and Slovaks around Trnava.
d. Bojnice (or Prievidza)- a (still existing) castle in the upper part of Nitra county. Not a pivotal location, perhaps, but its addition would allow you to reserve the location of Turčiansky Svätý Martin to the Turóc county, of which it was the capital of. In other words, Bojnice would allow you to reduce the administrative border gore.
e. Fiľakovo (or Lučenec) - a castle in the north of Nograd county, it was an important border location during the Austro-Ottoman wars, splitting the location it is located in also allows to visualize the cultural divide between Slovaks and Hungarians
f. Zvolen - an important town in the county of the same name
g. Zlaté Moravce (or Levice) - in the southern part of Óbars location, relatively important places that make a rather large location smaller. Also, rename Óbars to Kremnica, one of the most important mining towns in all of Hungary that was enjoying its heydey during the late middle ages
h. Rožňava (or Revúca) in the Gemer county
i. Spišská Nová Ves (or Spišská Sobota) - One of the many growing German cities in the Spiš county,

I would also rename Leibitz to Stará Ľubovňa. As a sidenote, the whole area needs a proper localisation review, it is currently a mix of Slovak, Hungarian and German names.

 

[VoidWarrior]

Is there a way to have a successful Pagan Lithuania via tolerance between the Romuva/Catholics? Or will it be oppressive with the rest of Europe hating you the entire campaign?