Tinto Maps #4 - 31th of May 2024 - Poland, Ruthenia, Baltic

[Ramburakx]

First of all I want to thanks you for all of your work. I know that this dev. diary not primaly focused on it, but because I am so passionate about thus game I need to share it. Province name Hradistsko is wrong. Instead of sts there should be letter Š, so it should be called Hradišťsko (I am glad that you add these special letters such as š,ç...) And also Posazavsko should be called Posázaví. I was wondering if there are both variants usable, but on the map and from my general knowledge there is only Posázaví variant valid. Posázaví as whole region around river Sázava, Posázavská/é only exist as adjectives.

Edit: Hradišťsko - š ť

 

[dampflande]

All of these "talks" looks amazing so far! I just have one question/suggestion regarding a game-mechanic not yet talked about: Peace deals (I think they are very important since most of the time paradox-players like to use this feature very much )

First, I just assume this game will have a type of peace deal mechanic like imperator or eu4 where you can demand things dynamically after you already decleared the war. I find any other type extremely historically inaccurate.

I think it would be very nice to have peace deals where "both sides can make gains". There are so many historical examples for this, after all complete victories were extremely rare.

Maybe you can even add a bit more options that "usual", for example to occupy a province for some duration, dismantle a fort, a type of forced alliance or to install a friendly gouverment.

 

[Mef]

And here's my suggestion for the raw materials in Silesia:

Edit: I just saw that I forgot Kladsko, I'm not sure what to put there, I don't think it has any special production, so something like furs or lumber.


Silesia:
Silesia at the start of the game was in the final phase of German settlement, when free Germans came in large numbers to create settlements under German law in an area that had previously been under Slavic Polish rule.
The economic sector that Silesia is probably best known for is heavy industry. However, this only appeared very late in the time period and the major export of Silesia were actually textiles, specifically linen and canvas. Silesia was a cheap source of textiles for Western Europeans (traded through Leipzig) who often exchanged them in Africa for slaves.
It is worth noting that this large scale textile production only started from the 15th century, but the potential for flax production exists on the fertile farmlands between the Oder and the Giant Mountains, along with grain.
Lower Silesia had gold production in Löwenberg (Lwówek Śląski) and Goldberg (Złotoryja), the two oldest cities in Silesia with German law, settled due to the local potential for gold panning.
Iron production first appeared in Lower Silesia in 1148, when the German Bergmeister Laurentius Angel opened iron mines near Schmiedeberg (Kowary).
Lower Silesia is also famous for its copper deposits today, but production in the time period wasn’t as remarkable.
On 15 January 1753, Friedrich II started a project to turn the underdeveloped Upper Silesia into an industrial center with lots of iron production. Mercantilist policies (banning Swedish iron) helped grow the industry.
However, there was earlier mining in Upper Silesia as well. There is Tarnowitz (Tarnowskie Góry), which had an important silver and lead mine that is a heritage site today. Like many silver mines, it declined pretty fast and mining wasn’t resumed until after Friedrich II started his efforts.
This map suggests that a lot of mining was done in Upper Silesia in the 14th century, but it looks like the region declined over time, otherwise the Prussians wouldn’t have had to launch a project to develop it.
I’m suggesting the potential for iron, silver and lead in Upper Silesia.
In the more mountainous and forested parts, squirrel furs were still used for paying tithe in the 14th century, so there could be some furs here.
By the 16th century, alum mines had been set up in Silesia to support the textile industry. Note that dye was not produced in Silesia but imported from the big woad producing area in Thuringia.
While I found no records of early coal use in Silesia (there was plenty of wood around, which was simply the more pleasant fuel to work with before coke production became common), its rich bituminous coal reserves should at least give it the potential for later in the game.


Some additional comments that I wrote down from random sources during research:
Estonia and Gotland were exporters of limestone. I see one stone in Estonia and none on Gotland.
Livonia and Estonia exported flax and hemp through the Hansa. I don't see any fiber crops production there, so that deserves to be changed! The big trade centers were Riga, Dorpat and Reval. Fun fact, Dorpat (i.e. Tartu) is one of the European Culture Capitals this year!
Unfortunately I don’t have specifics about exactly where these goods were produced.
I also think that having wheat in Estonia rather than sturdy grains is quite ambitious.

 

[LoleK23]

If I'm not mistaken the location between Torun, Lipno and Rypin is Golub-Dobrzyń. However Golub and Dobrzyń were only merged in XX century, and Dobrzyń was not even a city before XVII century. I cannot provide any other source than polish wikipedia right now, I can look for something else later on if that might help. I'm also not sure if Golub itself is a good name for this location, I think Dobrzyń nad Wisłą was more important at the time. I would need to look it up as well.

 

[sano1324]

Września should be changed to Pyzdry. Września received town privileges in 1375.

 

[Huskermax5]

For the starting war is Poland or Tuetons the defender? Or is that redacted due to war systems?

 

[CocoBZ]

Vlach culture names for some of the locations:
Kolomyia - Colomeea
Kosiv - Cosău
Halych - Halici
I have no idea what this thing is

 

[Teutonic_Knight_2000]

Białystok didn't exist in this time frame.

I proposed Drohiczyn.

This is maybe more for Carpathians Tinto Maps, but since you added Rusyns (Which I love, underepresented culture) , shouldnt you also include Gorals and Lemkos ? The Border between Slovakia and Poland is pretty "clean" culturally in most Paradox games, but if youre going with considerable granularity maybe including these cultures wouldnt hurt.

Lemkos are Rusyns.

Gorals could be cool - there is no shortage of homeland Goral locations.

Could you reveal what the ethnic minorities in central Poland are please

Probably Germans settlers and also Jews.

There shouldn't be a Moravian culture tbh, otherwise you might as well split up east and west Slovak.

Nonsense

Rename Tarnow location to Bochnia
Rename Tarnow province to Wieliczka

NO. Tarnów was an important city, and Bochnia and Wieliczka were centers of salt mining, which were to be founded by Casimir the Great in later years.

I only see "Silesian" culture, which I assume represents the slavic people living there, however during the game's timeframe the Silesian region was shaped by German Silesians just as much, will they be represented by their own culture this time or are they again abstractly represented by "Saxons" just like they used to be in EU4? German Silesians were mostly catholic settlers from southern Germany, so representing them as Saxons never felt right.

German Silesians (Schläsch) were a separate nation with their own language. I think they should be included in this game.

Hi,
Please change one location's name: Lubań (near Legnica) -> into Lwówek (modern name Lwówek Śląski). At that time Lwówek was third biggest city of Silesia with approx. Population of 13.000. Wikipedia: Lwówek śląski for source information

They can function simultaneously.

Several questions emerge looking at the border territory between Poland proper and the Silesian duchies.

Given the game's start being set in 1337 iirc, the Duchy of Siewierz (see map 1) ought not to be represented within the borders of the Kingdom - it wouldn't be until 1443 that the Duchy's been bought by the Bishops of Kraków, bringing it somewhat closer to the Crown; until then it remained a territory in possession of different Silesian dukes, and should be represented as such (especially given how you're alredy portraying Silesia's fragmentation in a rather detailed manner).

Also, seeing the borders of the locations of Będzin and Chrzanów, and how those of the former seem to partially allign with the Duchy's borders (see map 2), the actual "old" city of Będzin, as opposed to the modern city's administrative layout (see map 3) would find itself outside of the Będzin locality's borders, instead being in Chrzanów.

As such I'd suggest renaming the locality of Chrzanów to Będzin, dividing what's currently Będzin into two localities, and attaching Siewierz i.e. the western one to whichever Silesian Duchy it should be in union with at game start (either Bytom or Cieszyn, I believe).

You're definitely right!

Opavsko should be in Silesia, not Moravia.

Right.

What is the reasoning for "Silesian" culture instead of simply majority Polish area slowly giving way to German culture?

Less than one century earlier Lower Silesia was a main center of the first major attempt at Polish reunification under the High Duke of Poland Henry II the Pious; it was one of the third cradles of Polish civilization next to Wielkopolska (Poznań, Gniezno) and Małopolska (Kraków). Polish language was very much spoken here, the first words printed in Polish were in 15th century Wrocław/Breslau, there were major Polish intellectuals in this area all the way in the 17th century, well cultivated connections with the Kindgom of Poland, with the Polish language only fully wiped out in Lower Silesia in the 19th century (largely by purposeful Prussian actions to eliminate it).

Yet in this setup it's as if the entire Silesia was completely separate West Slavic culture. Making Silesian culture separate from monolithic Polish is nonsencial division - it was as much of a separate culture as Małopolska, Wielkopolska and Masovia: regional sub-Polish cultural and linguistic divisions. You could sort of justify it by saying it it encourages Silesia going separate way from Poland... But it doesn't make sense because Casimir the Great very much tried to incorporate it back into Polish kingdom and it should be highly possible alternate history.

Polish nationalism X D

At that time, Silesia had such a past that it was under Bohemian-Moravian influence longer than Polish influence.

By the way, get over yourself, because you could just as easily isolate Masovian culture and it wouldn't be bad! Polish culture could even be divided into Lesser Poland and Greater Poland cultures (with the option of unification around the 16th century, when the epigrams by Kochanowski and Rej were written) and it still wouldn't be incorrect!

A little spoiler: there are Silesian (Slavic-speaking) and German Silesian (German-speaking) cultures.

Thank you very much!!! <3

A bit of feedback regarding the Silesian region. First of all, I am really not sold on the idea of the entire region getting a completely distinct culture in mid XIVth century. You could make that point by the EU4 start date, but 1337 is still very, very fresh off of attempts to unite Silesia with the Crown of Poland. The duke of Głogów, Henryk III, died only in 1309 and he was able to control not only the region, but also good part of Greater Poland, fueling his ambition to reunite the Polish crown on his own. The fragmentation after his sons took over is what eventually led to the dispersion of power in Silesia and eventual slip into the sphere of Bohemian influence. But that region was still predominantly Polish, in so far as Greater Poland region would be considered Polish. The German influence that would eventually lead to the modern Silesian language needed several centuries to take its root, and even then it had to be helped by the likes of Frederick the Great in XVIIIth century and his... culture conversion efforts, which still only managed to achieve partial "success", as attested by people nearly 100 years later:

as noted by Józef Ignacy Kraszewski in his 1869 trip to Wrocław, or


from (a German national this time) Joseph Partsch's Schlesien, 1896.

If the goal of this split is purely for gameplay reason then I can understand the motivation, but I would be against using XXIth century Silesian language for things like regional naming of cities and people, it just wasn't a product of that period, and it wasn't a product of the whole Silesian region (modern Silesian is almost entirely focused in the Upper Silesia).

---

Then there's the status of each dukedom in relation to the Crown of Bohemia. By 1337 the situation was monstrously complicated, which I partially mentioned in the paragraphs above. What perhaps led you paint it all in Bohemian yellow was the Congress of Visegrád in 1335. But, and this will be laywer-esque semantics, what was agreed in that congress was that Kazimierz the Great renounced his claims to all the land in Silesia that were already controlled by Bohemian king at the time. That still left 3 titles contested, Bishopric Duchy of Nysa, Duchy of Świdnica and Duchy of Jawor. Meanwhile in the screenshots you've provided, every single duchy in Silesia is at war with Poland at the start date, which leads me to believe that all of the duchies are vassal states of Bohemia.

And on the topic of the war, that's some serious licencia poetica to have a 2v2 between Poland-Lithuania and Bohemia-Teutonic Order in 1337. There was no war between Poland and Teutons at the time, and in that year specifically there was no conflict between Poland and Bohemia (that was the main point of Visegrád Congress). There would later be conflict along those lines, absolutely, but not in 1337. I'm not sure what that starting conflict is supposed to represent exactly, and I expected something more along the line of Situations you've mentioned two days ago.

---

Finally, the smallest request, but one I feel the most educated to talk about. The region around Wrocław and Legnica is currently all producing wheat and livestock. There's actually a very strong viticulture tradition in the area between the two cities, one that reaches its medieval times. While the produce wasn't widely known in the export market, it was still a strong basis of the local economy. In fact, there is a town directly between the two cities, Środa Śląska, which to this day has vines in its coat of arms, taking as much space as the Silesian Piasts' eagle (attached) and hosts annual wine festivals. I know that that place is too small to represtent due to location granuality, but I don't think it would've been a stretch to have one of the locations produce wine at the start date.

Another Polish nationalist. Look at France!

Even Lithuanians are not bothered by the lack of unitary Lithuanian culture - it proves some complexes of Polish nationalists.

 

[Orangechrisy]

Could amber be a bit more orange colored on the raw goods map mode? Feels too yellow while amber is generally a bit more of an orange-yellow.

 

[Theodoric of Bern]

Malbork and Lebork are Polish names, the locations should be called Marienburg and Lauenburg when under German control - bork/borg is the polonisation of Germanic "burg/burgh" meaning castle and as a stem representing the fortified cities that grew out of them ("Bürger/burgher").

 

[Stachwel]

Existence of Silesian culture doesn't make any sense, or at least it doesn't if rest of Poland is all one culture. Polish Silesians were not more different from Poles from Kraków than the ones from Mazovia were. In 14th century only the Silesian dukes had a somewhat unique identity as mostly germanized Piasts who remembered that they originated from kings of Poland, but I don't think one dude per province is enough to justify a separate culture. So I think that either Mazovians and Kuyavians should get equal treatement and get their own cultures (although I don't really see the point in that) or Slavic Silesians should be just Polish.

Also, about Mazovians - By 1337 they already started settling in the south of Prussia. Eventually, separated by border and religion (after the reformation) and after mixing with Germans and native Prussians they became Masurians, but at the start of EU5 there should be some Mazovian presence in Masuria (fun fact, historically they were even called Prussian Masurians because Masurians originally meant Mazovians. Linguistic changes can be funny like that).

 

[Meekologist]

Love to see it. I'm still not huge on the political map mode colours being so washed out.

The last few maps I really liked the cultural map mode colours vibrancy and I'm not sure I like the faded look of the political map mode colour choices.

 

[Mef]

Could amber be a bit more orange colored on the raw goods map mode? Feels too yellow while amber is generally a bit more of an orange-yellow.

I think they're going to change the colors around, but yes, that's something I noticed too. Amber is orange! At least the one in the Baltic.
Not sure if other types of amber are represented as well...

 

[Paweud]

Hi thank you,

do you guys consider feedback on the Bohemian HRE provinces from the region? (You showed the screen in the TT about IOs)

I Think Wrocław altho Bohemian wasnt in the HRE until 1348. Unless it is going to start in the HRE due to how the adding provinces im the HRE works.

 

[Pavía]

For the starting war is Poland or Tuetons the defender? Or is that redacted du ego war systems?

The Teutons are the attackers.

 

[Myrkull]

Is Kashubian separate culture from Polabian or have they been merged? If separate, I can send you list of Polabian localisation I did for some CK2 and CK3 mods few years ago.

Can you send me this localisation aswell?

 

[Sleelan]

Another Polish nationalist. Look at France!

Even Lithuanians are not bothered by the lack of unitary Lithuanian culture - it proves some complexes of Polish nationalists.

Do you have an actual counterpoint to make, or are you just here to call people names?

 

[lKasper]

I don't know if somebody wrote anything similar but at least from this map ( https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Lithuanian_language_in_the_16th_century.png ) we can see that there were more Lithuanians around Grodno, instead of Polish as shown in the tinto map. The map I shared shows the 16th-century situation so during the games period there might be even more Lithuanians but that's just speculation at this point.

Again I don't know how factual the map I shared is, but the Lithuanian population seems very small on the Tinto map. (I don't mean the western parts, the old Prussians and Samogitians are well represented)

 

[Henszow]

One thing, Grodków was not as relevant as Nysa, which at that time was its own duchy with Bishop of Wrocław as a Duke.

 

[Huskermax5]

Suggestions for the raw goods of Prussia and East Pomerania:
View attachment 1141244
You cut off some of Eastern Pomerania (including Stettin) so this makes this a bit awkward... I couldn't include everything on the map.

Before posting what I've prepared, I have a few comments to make about the map that was posted.
It looks like you've shifted the wheat growing area from around the Vistula to the west of the Vistula?
I don't know what dyes in Danzig is supposed to represent. Did I miss an important woad growing area here?
No Fiber Crops at all is strange, considering how important Prussian canvas was. I also don't know why there's supposed to be iron in Pomerania.

Prussia:
This is a write-up based on German sources, one and two.

When it comes to both vegetation and goods that were produced, Prussia had pretty strong contrasts.
When the Order came to Western Prussia, they found cultivated land and a population that grew several different crops. This agricultural Western part continued being developed - forests were cleared and grain and hemp were grown on a scale that became ever larger. Prussia was a big producer of fiber crops which were made into canvas in Danzig and exported to the West, Prussian canvas was one of the major types of textiles traded in the Hansa.
As we get later into the time period and potatoes start to appear, Prussia becomes one of the most important food producers in the region (and eventually the breadbasket of the German Empire).
On the other hand, in the East and South of East Prussia, there was the “Great Wilderness” which was still contiguous, almost uninhabited forest in the 14th century. In the 16th century, forest cover there was down to 50%, in 1700 it was still 45%, in 1800 it was 32% and in 1900 17.4%, as more and more was cultivated as agricultural land.
The typical products exported from those forests were oak for ship building and cooperage, yew for crossbows, potash, tar and pitch. Customers were in the Netherlands, England, Scotland and even Portugal.
Potash isn’t in the game, but it was a big part of Prussia’s exports, 75% of income in some woodlands. It was used in glassmaking, pottery and dying of cloth. Maybe it could be represented by alum?
The forests were also rich in berries, fruit, nuts and mushrooms, and of course hunting was very efficient in those thick forests, providing meat, leather and furs which were exported. Between 1612 and 1619, the Elector Johan Sigismund’s hunting journal lists the following kills in East Prussian forests: 4935 deer, 4008 boars, 112 moose, 52 bears, 15 wisent, 580 does and 1378 hares.
Fish was not only an important food source, but it was also salted and exported south all the way to Krakow and Lviv. In the 17th century, this became less important as cultivation of more land and control of rivers meant that fish lost spawning grounds and became less plentiful.
Beekeeping was a big part of the economy in the woodlands, export of beeswax was monopolized by the Teutonic Order. I suggested this as a trade good before, since honey/wax were very important as an export for wooded regions and wax was highly in demand, especially by Christian churches.
Livestock were cattle, horses, sheep and goats on woodland pastures. The Trakehner horse breed comes from the eastern boglands.
There was also bog iron which was produced throughout the period, although any bog iron is of rather low quality. The Order imported Hungarian metals through Krakow.
In terms of other production, glass was huge since they had plenty of access to raw materials (potash and fuel), and there was the aforementioned pitch and canvas production.
Due to the insatiable demand for fuel and clearing of forests, Prussia experienced wood shortages. The first regulations on forest use were documented in 1309 and by 1640 there was extensive forestry with man-made conifer forests.
Grain in Prussia was mostly rye, but wheat was grown in the fertile lands around the Vistula.
Prussia was a big importer and trader of salt - the cities of Danzig, Elbing and Thorn stored large amounts of salt which they exported to Scandinavian fish producers like Bornholm and Skane. There are many salt trade records from the time period - Setúbal had the cheapest salt, but shipping to Prussia was more expensive than the salt itself, so they imported mostly from the Low Countries and Germany.
When the Order arrived, they sourced salt from the Duchy of Dobrin (Dobrzyń) in the very south of their territory, but the lack of salt in Bohemia and Poland (except for mining around Krakow) is well known, and it looks like Prussia also had to import the majority of their salt, so I suggest not having much salt here, if any at all.
And finally - maybe most famously to some - Amber, which was plentiful on the coasts of Eastern Prussia. The Sambian Peninsula is believed to be responsible for the vast majority of the world’s amber production and the Roman Empire’s trade routes originating here are famous. In more appropriate times for this game, amber was chiefly exported through Königsberg. The Teutonic Order had the position of “Schäffer”, a person tasked with outside trade. While the Schäffer of Marienburg exported grain all over Western Europe, the Schäffer of Königsberg had the monopoly on amber exports. He would bring them to Brugge and come back with goods like cloth, sugar, salt, rice and spices. This system stopped around 1450.
In any case, if you’re going to have a modifier for amber production, Sambia should have it.


Eastern Pomerania:
Main Source, from the Federal Institute for the Culture and History of Germans in Eastern Europe
Germans started settling here in large numbers in the 13th century, leading to the founding of many cities with German law. While in 1337, the Eastern parts had just been settled, it was done at a high pace, so that Pomerania had plenty of settlements and lots of new cultivated land.
The main economic sectors in Pomerania were agriculture, brewing of beer and - you’ll never guess - pickled herring that they exported to Sweden. The source material doesn’t specify if it was stored in Luxembourg.
Pomerania was one of the most agricultural and conservative regions in Germany - with the exception of Stettin, one of the main harbors in the Baltic Sea.
Goods should mostly be sturdy grains, fish and lumber for the forests. There can also be some sand (they do have sandy beaches), amber, livestock and salt. Nothing exciting going on here to be honest.


Silesia is next!

Mef would you recommend that the teutons have sand as a good to reflect glass?