Tinto Maps #4 - 31th of May 2024 - Poland, Ruthenia, Baltic

[Uqabos]

I don't know if somebody wrote anything similar but at least from this map ( https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Lithuanian_language_in_the_16th_century.png ) we can see that there were more Lithuanians around Grodno, instead of Polish as shown in the tinto map. The map I shared shows the 16th-century situation so during the games period there might be even more Lithuanians but that's just speculation at this point.

Again I don't know how factual the map I shared is, but the Lithuanian population seems very small on the Tinto map. (I don't mean the western parts, the old Prussians and Samogitians are well represented)

Exactly. All of the Yotvingia, Gardinas and Suvalkija area is somewhy Polish for no reason.

 

[Korsjan Rīkis]

We might have to add a few more Pagan pops there, aye.

They would need their own Paganism or at least shared with Finland.

 

[albirg]

Will the Lipka Tatars be a distinguished culture? If so, I’m assuming they’d be in a similar state to the Sephardim who aren’t on map and are a distinct minority culture.

 

[Mef]

Mef would you recommend that the tea have sand as a good to reflect glass?

Hmm yeah, sand is the important raw material for making glass in the game, even though it wasn't the bottleneck IRL, so I can see glass production being represented by sand. Sand instead of alum to represent potash production that is used for glass is probably better, since Prussia didn't actually produce alum. Thanks!

 

[Sleelan]

Silesia:
Silesia at the start of the game was in the final phase of German settlement, when free Germans came in large numbers to create settlements under German law in an area that had previously been under Slavic Polish rule.

Final phase? Really? Are we talking about XIV, or XVIII century here? It wasn't even German law sensus stricte, it was a local modification of the Magdeburg rights, established in 1292 in Środa Śląska, later called Prawo Średzkie and used in other towns in the region.

And speaking of XVIII century,

"(...) What is the native language here in Silesia? Because rather not German? Basing on the names of cities and villages in a particular land, we can establish without any doubts, what was the most common language in this land when those cities and villages were built. What do words such as Glogau, Bunzlau, Wohlau, Jauer, Breslau, Brieg mean in German language? Nothing. On the other hand, in Polish language all these words have their meaning! Isn't the conclusion, that when those cities were built, Polish was the regional language in Silesia, true? Isn't this thus true, that accusing a Lower Silesian of speaking German language is more justified than accusing an Upper Silesian of speaking Polish language?* There is so much ignorance shown by your agitators, who complain so loudly. The thing which they criticize,* is rather worth praising. Honestly, how pitiful is a nation, which is jeering at people due to their mother tongue - people who are not at fault for using it - and the ones who are mocking, have not enough virtues to judge others genuinely and earnestly. (...)"

J. W. Pohleg, "Der Oberschlesier verteidigt gegen seine Widersacher", published in 1791

 

[ME123]

Well, some locations are even inspired by the current administrative division of Poland.

I think they did this with the Western and Southern border of Gniezno, which uses the boundary of the powiat by the looks of things. Also, it seems to me that the location above it, 'Znin', is either misplaced or mislabelled, as it centres on Wągrowiec, and Żnin lies to the east of it, in the area called 'Szubin' on the map, which is itself due North of Żnin.

 

[Aramenian]

What about the Hel Peninsula?

Hel Peninsula - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Does adding Silesian culture to the game in 1337 make sense? the region's population had only just begun to create a separate identity from Polish culture.
The western regions of Silesia should already have a German majority.
Why do you call the indigenous Prussian culture Western Baltic? The Germans appropriated the name Prussia to create the Duchy of Prussia in 1525.
A new province should also be added below Nowy Sącz. This province should be Orthodox and have Rusyn culture. It will represent the Lemkos.

Lemko Region - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Rusyns - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As for Podlasie, the north of today's voivodeship should have Prussian, Lithuanian or mixed culture.

Große Wildnis – Wikipedia

de.wikipedia.org

 

[Al-Khalidi]

That's untrue. First, the 500k estimates are so lowballed, that even their authors find them to be "unlikely" as they were based on some very naive understanding of the tax base laws. But more importantly, there's a 1994 book called Historia Polski w Liczbach (Polish history in numbers) by the Polish Central Statistic Bureau. It estimated the 1340 population to be about 1.2 million and was later cited multiple times. However, they arrived at that number by working under the old assumption of Poland being spared the Black Death and basically copy pasted the post-plague numbers.

The whole belief of the region avoiding the Black Death is heavily contested nowadays. There are very characteristic signs from the Kraków's surroundings that all point to the plague being present - dropping price of food (fewer people to eat it), raising price of labour (fewer people to work) and a sudden increase of densely forested areas. There were also the more societal effects, like the noted rise of flagellants or sudden Jewish persecutions (during a previously tolerant reign of Kazimierz III). Also, there was a Polish-Bohemian military conflict ongoing at the time, which very suddenly and with seemingly no explanation ended in 1348, also being a good pointer towards Black Death being present.

There are also more mathematical indicators of the old estimates based on the "no Black Death" scenario being wrong, such as the bizzare population growth numbers it would've resulted in during the comparatively prosperous period. To then have the 500k population before the Black plague would mean that to field the kind of army that was present 70 years later at the Battle of Grunwald, Polish king would've had to press children and/or infirm people into military service.

The figure on the map is given for the part of polish lands significantly smaller than what belonged to kingdom of Poland by 1410, less than half of it. And if the population before black death was 1,9 and went to 1,2 later on, more than one third population perishing would probably cause more visible effects, including records. I also think that those estimates counted the numbers for kingdom of Poland together with vassal provinces.

 

[Krajzen]

Polish nationalism X D

By the way, get over yourself, because you could just as easily isolate Masovian culture and it wouldn't be bad! Polish culture could even be divided into Lesser Poland and Greater Poland cultures (with the option of unification around the 16th century, when the epigrams by Kochanowski and Rej were written) and it still wouldn't be incorrect!

Another Polish nationalist. Look at France!

Even Lithuanians are not bothered by the lack of unitary Lithuanian culture - it proves some complexes of Polish nationalists.

Laughing at someone and accusing of being nationalist, of having inferiority complex and implying stupidity does not substitute for good historical sources, good arguments, or community rules of polite discussion.

You haven't even actually engaged with my arguments, except by noticing correctly that splitting Silesian culture while leaving out unitary Polish culture is inconsistent - either it should be part of Polish culture or the entire Polish culture should be split in regional subcultures, just like I suggested.

 

[upboat]

Will there be any Slavic pagans left or are they all converted by now? And could you do anything to represent folk religion in officially Christian areas? A lot of rural areas were officially Christian but in practice maintained pagan beliefs. I get why you wouldn't though because it sounds insanely complicated. Lastly, would you consider making an option for Lithuania to convert to a unique Rovuma influenced form of Catholicism similar to early Celtic Christianity, as a middle ground between full conversion or remaining pagan?

 

[Mef]

Final phase? Really? Are we talking about XIV, or XVIII century here? It wasn't even German law sensus stricte, it was a local modification of the Magdeburg rights, established in 1292 in Środa Śląska, later called Prawo Średzkie and used in other towns in the region.

This was referring to the phase were lots of free Germans came to settle using German law, which was coming to an end. After this phase, laws were adjusted to fit the Slavic rulers more and rights of peasants were restricted.
Goldberg was founded in 1211 and Löwenberg in 1217, using the Magdeburg rights, authorized by Duke Henry the Bearded.

 

[Eliksia]

Looking quite good! Although, being Polish myself I did notice some oddities:

1. The location of Wyrzysk should probably be named 'Nakło', as that was historically the much more significant city in the area

2. The province of Żnin has some quite weird borders, it looks like you combined the historical Krajna and Pałuki together, while leaving out Flatow (Złotów which for whatever reason has a German name?) I would probably change the province's name to Krajna, as that was the larger and more significant of the two areas, and it was used in CK3 to denote essentially the same area as the province in question.
Also, I'm pretty sure Żnin would be located inside the territory of the location of Szubin, but I'm not sure.

3. The provinces in Kujawy sort of make no sense to me. I get that Inowrocław was a very significant city, yes, but why does Lipno get it's own state? When the land it's situated on is literally called 'Ziemia Dobrzyńska' or 'Dobrzyń Land' (named after Dobrzyń nad Wisłą, not Golub-Dobrzyń, which btw would only come about in the 1950's, as before that it was two separate cities.) I would probably change the name of the province of Inowrocław to 'Kujawy' and include Radziejów and Włocławek, and probably change the name of Lipno to 'Dobrzyń', but I could see the argument for keeping is as Lipno, as it was admittedly the place where the local Sejmik was gathered.

 

[Zetu]

When it comes to territory of Lębork as a local i feel confused mainly by production of sand. As far i as know from centuries people in Łeba gathered from beaches and traded amber. Also in communist times Lębork exported lots of clay and bricks, i can only assume it was similar in medieval times, which would make sense since castle and medieval walls in Lębork are made of clay bricks. Another thing is Kashubian culture dominating Lębork. The city was built by Teutons in defensive purposes and it was mostly inhabited by Germans. Non-German population mostly lived in villages in the province of Lębork. Another thing is that it would be more suiting to use German name Lauenburg the same way it's done with Stolp as long as it's not under Polish rule.

 

[Ispil]

No Principality of Chernigov? I'm curious as to the reason why.

 

[Nuukov]

When will we see the British Isles?

 

[Mef]

And that’s all for today! The region that we'll show next week is Italy! Cheers!

Is this also when Switzerland and Tyrol will show up, or are they separate?

 

[Wyshyn]

Great attention to vassals as always.
However some location names are anarchronistic. Zakopane was established in 16th century and some like Otwock were established in 19th century.

 

[FreeLancer8A]

And now for the "Lithuania goes Orthodox and gets Slavicized" playthrough

This is just Lithuania in an average CK2 playthrough

 

[McGregg]

...The game starts with an ongoing war between Poland, Lithuania, and their respective vassals, on one side, and the Teutonic and Livonian Orders, and Bohemia and its vassals, on the other.

Is that because of some balancing reasons... Ongoing war in 1337? Can you elaborate on that?
Or did you mean there was ongoing struggle/dispute (as the truce was extended every year with treaty negotiations/talks, waiting for Papal arbitration etc)...?

 

[Deterock]

Speaking about historically accurate names, Kyiv wasn't named Kyiv but was Kiev at the times. I know now it's called Kyiv (and it's mostly because of differences of two languages) but in this historical period it was Kiev, which is confirmed by historical documents of these times. Besides that, I hope that there will be dynamic names of regions/cities etc.