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Tinto Maps #4 - 31th of May 2024 - Poland, Ruthenia, Baltic

Hello everyone, and welcome to the fourth Tinto Maps! The feedback that we've received so far has been great, and there will be news soon regarding the map fixes that we've already done.

This week we are showing you Poland, Lithuania, Ruthenia, and the Baltic region. Let’s check it with no further ado:

Countries
Countries.jpg

A bigger picture of what’s going on in this region today, as we hadn’t shown it entirely before. To the west, the Kingdom of Poland is ruled by Casimir III of the House of Piast. It is not a completely unified kingdom, as there are several powerful vassals under him, most of them also Piasts themselves.

To the east, the Duchy of Lithuania is ruled by Gediminas, who has greatly expanded the influence of the country into Russian lands (side note: Gediminas entitled himself in his diplomatic correspondence ‘king’, but was considered by the Pope ‘king or duke’, and the title of Grand Duke wouldn’t be formally adopted until later [most likely replicating the Russian title ‘Grand Prince’]. That’s why Lithuania starts as a Duchy, although it will have an event that would make it possible to adopt the dynamic country name of ‘Grand Duchy’).

To the south, the principalities of Kyiv and Galicia-Volhynia have recently fallen under foreign influence, the first ruled by Theodor, brother of Gediminas of Lithuania; and the second by Yuri II, also from the Piast dynasty.

To the north, the Teutonic and Livonian Orders, which conquered the lands of Prussia and Livonia a century ago, are at war against Poland and Lithuania, after a long-established rivalry.

Also, a side note: we will talk about Moldavia in the Tinto Maps devoted to the Carpathian region, as it’s currently in a ‘placeholder’ spot.


Diplomacy.jpg

A new map mode, the Diplomatic one! The game starts with an ongoing war between Poland, Lithuania, and their respective vassals, on one side, and the Teutonic and Livonian Orders, and Bohemia and its vassals, on the other.

Locations
Locations.jpg

Here you have the locations of Poland, Lithuania, Ruthenia, and the Baltic region. Some issues that have already been reported by our Polish coworkers are the inconsistencies in the location naming in Polish (we’ll use proper Polish letters more thoroughly), and we’ve also started to review both the Polish and Baltic locations based on the early feedback you gave us. Oh, also, the Vistula and Curonian Lagoons missing is a bug, we’ll properly re-add them while doing the map review.

Provinces
Province.jpg

Any suggestions for provincial naming are pretty welcome, as in the last DD!

Terrain
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg


Cultures
Cultures.jpg

The Baltic lands have an interesting mix of different cultures. ‘Western Baltic’ culture represents the people speaking a West Baltic language (Old Prussians, Yotvingians, Curonians, etc.), while ‘Prussian’ is the culture of the German settlers of that area; on that style, we have a ‘Baltic German’ culture in the lands of Livonia and Estonia that also got settled by German-speaking people. The divide between Polish, Ruthenian, and Aukstaitian might be too deep, so we will most likely add a bit more mixed situation in the borders between these cultures.

Religions
Religions.jpg

A region with a more interesting religious setup! Apart from the Catholic-Orthodox divide, you can also see the Romuva religion, which was a hot topic in 1337 (shall the Dukes of Lithuania convert to Catholicism, or stay Pagan?). Red stripes to the north are other Animist populations. Also, disregard the Sunni region to the southeast, as we have to review all the pops of the Pontic Steppes, as well.

Raw Goods
Raw Goods.jpg

From the distribution of the materials, maybe a couple of things might catch your eye. The first is that there’s an Amber good present on the shores of the Baltic Sea. The second is that the Tatra Mountains, in Slovakia, have a bunch of precious metals, which makes them a very interesting area to exploit and develop.

Population
Pops.jpg

Pops 2.png

The population of the region is divided into country and location views. Two notes: The total population of Estonia is not 711K people, that’s the total for its owner, Denmark. Second, we’ve read your feedback regarding the population map mode, and we’ll take a look at how to improve the visualization of the data, making it better for you.

EDIT: Markets
Markets.jpg

And that’s all for today! The region that we'll show next week is Italy! Cheers!
 
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Is there any reason Estonia isn't pagan or atleast have considerable pagan minorities?

There would be an uprising not long after game start and the natives renounced Christianity.
We might have to add a few more Pagan pops there, aye.
 
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Isnt Ruthenian culture is too big and unified? Also, I found that decentralized poland having Polish culture strange considering French cultures were a lot of because of its decentralization
 
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Its nice to see Jász people be represented. Will Székelys and Csángos be represented aswell?
 
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I think 8k people in Hiiumaa is a bit too much for that time period. I do not have any sources though.
Also were there Coastal-Swedes living in Estonia by that time?
 
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Question, if you can answer, how will the game handle things like the Ostsiedlung? Obviously as a fan of Prussia, I’d like to Germanize it, but Johan specifically stated that population is only a feature going on in the background? Can you can confirm if it’s interactable either by event, mechanic, or just dynamically? My other fear, which hasn’t been talked about is how could it be balanced where the Greek minorities in Anatolia stick around, while old Prussians don’t. Thanks!
There's content portraying the German migrations to the East. Also, Old Prussians are covered, but under the 'Western Baltic' culture.
 
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Thanks for sharing this. Def a very interesting area i think where i can imagine i'll play often. Great to see they start as war as well. Also curious to see how Lithuanian paganism (Romuva) will work and if there will be mechanics at game start already.

Also are there populations in the baltics that follow different minority religions?
 
I wonder if we can try to not have piss poor politics and diplomacy as Poland, so it doesn't shrink to single location (Krakow in Victoria 3 start date).
 
Italy is literally at war in the hoi4 '36 start.
I don't know, i can't rember.

Are they really at war before you unpause the game ?
or do you need to unpause before the event trigger after 1 day and you are at war ?

for me its not the same, the second option technicly you are not at war at the start date but 1 day later...
 
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I would like to point out that the danish mainland population - minus Estonia - before the black plague was 950.000 so I suppose you don’t count Skåne as Danish here but under Swedish control?
 
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I'm wondering if it wouldn't be a good idea to sub-divide the climate even more than what you have to make it more regionally significant.. I imagen that winters in belarus and Russia are way more severe than in Hungary or Bohemia, and yet they are all just categorized as "continental".. I hope that climates have meaningful impact on the game, so have you considered making it more detailed?
 
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First Johan/Pavia thanks for everything.

Not knowledgeable enough about the Baltic to comment anything specific but my gut is saying there should be more hills in the west.

Additionally can you provide a list of all regions you will cover (of course I expect the order is very TBD)? And or could you give a teaser of how many tags there are in Project Caesar?

Since we are now in the west of Europe, will Sephardic and Ashkenzi Jews be seperate or is that too granular?
1. The entire world.
2. Sephardic and Ashkenazi are different cultures.
 
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I don't know, i can't rember.

Are they really at war before you unpause the game ?
or do you need to unpause before the even trigger after 1 day un you are at war ?

for me its not the same, the second option technicly you are not at war at the start date but 1 day later...
If you don't believe me then you can play the game yourself
 
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As someone currently studying the Grand Duchy of Lithuania at university this is very exciting to me. When it comes to the conversion of the GDL it should be noted that Catholicism was not at all a forgone conclusion and it was expected by much of the Ruthenianized nobility that Eastern Orthodoxy was the natural option. The rule of the GDL before the union of Krewo was bipolar with a power center in the Orthodox Ruthenian south and the Pagan Baltic north. A massive incentive for the Lithuanians to choose Catholicism and closer ties to Poland was the threat of the Teutonic and Livonian Orders, otherwise I think this would have been less likely to happen. The continued adherence to Paganism by the GDL was a diplomatic tool that allowed it to play Orthodox and Catholic rivals against each other with promises of their conversion. Furthermore, it was believed Catholicism and closer ties to Poland would allow a modernization of Lithuania's feudal institutions. Also, this is before the rise of Moscow or the collapse of Byzantium are certainties and the center of Orthodoxy at the start date could have shifted to Lithuania/Lithuanian Ruthenia instead (or at least not to Muscovy/Russia). Lithuania in EU4 (mostly given the start date) was just treated as Poland>PLC with extra steps, and given you basically got Lithuania for free as Poland, for most of EU4's history people kinda ignored Lithuania. This wasn't helped that by 1444 the GDL is kinda already a big blob and already at its greatest historic extent with virtually no historic conquest left to do. Given the time frame of Project Caesar Lithuania has way more interesting opportunities and this game could make it a recommended and widely enjoyed nation.

TL;DR: As Lithuania, you should have good reasons to choose to convert to Eastern Orthodoxy as well as Catholicism, both had different geopolitical and internal/institutional advantages (beyond just I want to ally Catholics, I become Catholic, I don't want the orthodox majority to give unrest, I become Orthodox). Remaining Pagan should be very difficult (though still interesting and have some advantage in the early game).
 
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Hello everyone, and welcome to the fourth Tinto Maps! The feedback that we've received so far has been great, and there will be news soon regarding the map fixes that we've already done.

This week we are showing you Poland, Lithuania, Ruthenia, and the Baltic region. Let’s check it with no further ado:

Countries
View attachment 1141116
A bigger picture of what’s going on in this region today, as we hadn’t shown it entirely before. To the west, the Kingdom of Poland is ruled by Casimir III of the House of Piast. It is not a completely unified kingdom, as there are several powerful vassals under him, most of them also Piasts themselves.

To the east, the Duchy of Lithuania is ruled by Gediminas, who has greatly expanded the influence of the country into Russian lands (side note: Gediminas entitled himself in his diplomatic correspondence ‘king’, but was considered by the Pope ‘king or duke’, and the title of Grand Duke wouldn’t be formally adopted until later [most likely replicating the Russian title ‘Grand Prince’]. That’s why Lithuania starts as a Duchy, although it will have an event that would make it possible to adopt the dynamic country name of ‘Grand Duchy’).

To the south, the principalities of Kyiv and Galicia-Volhynia have recently fallen under foreign influence, the first ruled by Theodor, brother of Gediminas of Lithuania; and the second by Yuri II, also from the Piast dynasty.

To the north, the Teutonic and Livonian Orders, which conquered the lands of Prussia and Livonia a century ago, are at war against Poland and Lithuania, after a long-established rivalry.

Also, a side note: we will talk about Moldavia in the Tinto Maps devoted to the Carpathian region, as it’s currently in a ‘placeholder’ spot.


View attachment 1141098
A new map mode, the Diplomatic one! The game starts with an ongoing war between Poland, Lithuania, and their respective vassals, on one side, and the Teutonic and Livonian Orders, and Bohemia and its vassals, on the other.

Locations
View attachment 1141100
Here you have the locations of Poland, Lithuania, Ruthenia, and the Baltic region. Some issues that have already been reported by our Polish coworkers are the inconsistencies in the location naming in Polish (we’ll use proper Polish letters more thoroughly), and we’ve also started to review both the Polish and Baltic locations based on the early feedback you gave us. Oh, also, the Vistula and Curonian Lagoons missing is a bug, we’ll properly re-add them while doing the map review.

Provinces
View attachment 1141101
Any suggestions for provincial naming are pretty welcome, as in the last DD!

Terrain
View attachment 1141106
View attachment 1141108
View attachment 1141109

Cultures
View attachment 1141110
The Baltic lands have an interesting mix of different cultures. ‘Western Baltic’ culture represents the people speaking a West Baltic language (Old Prussians, Yotvingians, Curonians, etc.), while ‘Prussian’ is the culture of the German settlers of that area; on that style, we have a ‘Baltic German’ culture in the lands of Livonia and Estonia that also got settled by German-speaking people. The divide between Polish, Ruthenian, and Aukstaitian might be too deep, so we will most likely add a bit more mixed situation in the borders between these cultures.

Religions
View attachment 1141112
A region with a more interesting religious setup! Apart from the Catholic-Orthodox divide, you can also see the Romuva religion, which was a hot topic in 1337 (shall the Dukes of Lithuania convert to Catholicism, or stay Pagan?). Red stripes to the north are other Animist populations. Also, disregard the Sunni region to the southeast, as we have to review all the pops of the Pontic Steppes, as well.

Raw Goods
View attachment 1141113
From the distribution of the materials, maybe a couple of things might catch your eye. The first is that there’s an Amber good present on the shores of the Baltic Sea. The second is that the Tatra Mountains, in Slovakia, have a bunch of precious metals, which makes them a very interesting area to exploit and develop.

Population
View attachment 1141117
View attachment 1141127
The population of the region is divided into country and location views. Two notes: The total population of Estonia is not 711K people, that’s the total for its owner, Denmark. Second, we’ve read your feedback regarding the population map mode, and we’ll take a look at how to improve the visualization of the data, making it better for you.

And that’s all for today! The region that we'll show next week is Italy! Cheers!
Hmm, 1,9 milion for Poland seems too high. I think the population of Poland during that period was less than one million. Estinates vary between 0,5 and 1,2 milion. Certainly not almost 2

On the side note, these maps are nice, but what I'm really curious to see is maps in game after some time playing. Such maps made it possible to identify certain issues of victoria 3 during the development stage.
 
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Shame that the Holy Cross Mountains in the Sandomierz/Kielce provinces are shown as flatlands and not as at least hills. (Approximate Area on a map of modern day Poland)

1717161631587.png


(EDIT) - Additionally, for the Kielce provice, I believe Chęciny would be a better candidate for the name, due to Kielce being fairly irrelevant until the XVth/XVIth centuries due to Galena mining in the area only starting then.
 
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As a lithuanian I don't feel that separating lithuanians to samogitians and aukstaitians is really a good choice. As it basically means lower and higher lithuanians (as in terrain). But if you really need to separate them it should be samogitians and lithuanians, as Lithuania is formed from "lithuanian's" tribe, not aukstaitians

And it should be Lyda instead of Lida if there are lithuanians as it's name is from "slash-and-burn" agriculture.
 
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