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Tinto Maps #4 - 31th of May 2024 - Poland, Ruthenia, Baltic

Hello everyone, and welcome to the fourth Tinto Maps! The feedback that we've received so far has been great, and there will be news soon regarding the map fixes that we've already done.

This week we are showing you Poland, Lithuania, Ruthenia, and the Baltic region. Let’s check it with no further ado:

Countries
Countries.jpg

A bigger picture of what’s going on in this region today, as we hadn’t shown it entirely before. To the west, the Kingdom of Poland is ruled by Casimir III of the House of Piast. It is not a completely unified kingdom, as there are several powerful vassals under him, most of them also Piasts themselves.

To the east, the Duchy of Lithuania is ruled by Gediminas, who has greatly expanded the influence of the country into Russian lands (side note: Gediminas entitled himself in his diplomatic correspondence ‘king’, but was considered by the Pope ‘king or duke’, and the title of Grand Duke wouldn’t be formally adopted until later [most likely replicating the Russian title ‘Grand Prince’]. That’s why Lithuania starts as a Duchy, although it will have an event that would make it possible to adopt the dynamic country name of ‘Grand Duchy’).

To the south, the principalities of Kyiv and Galicia-Volhynia have recently fallen under foreign influence, the first ruled by Theodor, brother of Gediminas of Lithuania; and the second by Yuri II, also from the Piast dynasty.

To the north, the Teutonic and Livonian Orders, which conquered the lands of Prussia and Livonia a century ago, are at war against Poland and Lithuania, after a long-established rivalry.

Also, a side note: we will talk about Moldavia in the Tinto Maps devoted to the Carpathian region, as it’s currently in a ‘placeholder’ spot.


Diplomacy.jpg

A new map mode, the Diplomatic one! The game starts with an ongoing war between Poland, Lithuania, and their respective vassals, on one side, and the Teutonic and Livonian Orders, and Bohemia and its vassals, on the other.

Locations
Locations.jpg

Here you have the locations of Poland, Lithuania, Ruthenia, and the Baltic region. Some issues that have already been reported by our Polish coworkers are the inconsistencies in the location naming in Polish (we’ll use proper Polish letters more thoroughly), and we’ve also started to review both the Polish and Baltic locations based on the early feedback you gave us. Oh, also, the Vistula and Curonian Lagoons missing is a bug, we’ll properly re-add them while doing the map review.

Provinces
Province.jpg

Any suggestions for provincial naming are pretty welcome, as in the last DD!

Terrain
Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg


Cultures
Cultures.jpg

The Baltic lands have an interesting mix of different cultures. ‘Western Baltic’ culture represents the people speaking a West Baltic language (Old Prussians, Yotvingians, Curonians, etc.), while ‘Prussian’ is the culture of the German settlers of that area; on that style, we have a ‘Baltic German’ culture in the lands of Livonia and Estonia that also got settled by German-speaking people. The divide between Polish, Ruthenian, and Aukstaitian might be too deep, so we will most likely add a bit more mixed situation in the borders between these cultures.

Religions
Religions.jpg

A region with a more interesting religious setup! Apart from the Catholic-Orthodox divide, you can also see the Romuva religion, which was a hot topic in 1337 (shall the Dukes of Lithuania convert to Catholicism, or stay Pagan?). Red stripes to the north are other Animist populations. Also, disregard the Sunni region to the southeast, as we have to review all the pops of the Pontic Steppes, as well.

Raw Goods
Raw Goods.jpg

From the distribution of the materials, maybe a couple of things might catch your eye. The first is that there’s an Amber good present on the shores of the Baltic Sea. The second is that the Tatra Mountains, in Slovakia, have a bunch of precious metals, which makes them a very interesting area to exploit and develop.

Population
Pops.jpg

Pops 2.png

The population of the region is divided into country and location views. Two notes: The total population of Estonia is not 711K people, that’s the total for its owner, Denmark. Second, we’ve read your feedback regarding the population map mode, and we’ll take a look at how to improve the visualization of the data, making it better for you.

EDIT: Markets
Markets.jpg

And that’s all for today! The region that we'll show next week is Italy! Cheers!
 
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I'm sure sweden will be covered in a future Tinto Maps but I noticed all the way back in like TT #2 that the borders of locations in Svealand are very strange.
The location of Nyköping does not include Nyköping it is further south and is placed in Kolmården, same for Södertälje which is in Nyköping.

I hope this is noticed and it is fixed.
 
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Many thanks for the correct Ruthenian and not russians names for provinces, locations and countries!

Since we have an Ruthenian and Rusyns, should the whole big Ruthenian culture split into more sub-cultures? F.e - split into Ruthenians and Litvins (modern Belarus lands)?
 
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View attachment 1141181

Karthaus (Kartuzy) didn't exist 1337. While nearby village of Mirachowo was mentioned for the first time in 1348, until 1818 it was a center of local administration for this region, when Prussians moved it to Karthaus.

View attachment 1141199
I also noticed that some provinces look like they were inspired by Prussien administrative division of Westpreussen province, which doesn't really work in late medieval setup.
Well, some locations are even inspired by the current administrative division of Poland.
 
Also, a side note: we will talk about Moldavia in the Tinto Maps devoted to the Carpathian region, as it’s currently in a ‘placeholder’ spot.
Pdx is at least beating those allegations, but good Lord I do not like what I'm seeing culturally in Transylvania through that glimpse
 
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Hmm, 1,9 milion for Poland seems too high. I think the population of Poland during that period was less than one million. Estinates vary between 0,5 and 1,2 milion. Certainly not almost 2

On the side note, these maps are nice, but what I'm really curious to see is maps in game after some time playing. Such maps made it possible to identify certain issues of victoria 3 during the development stage.
It's estimated to be 1.25M in the year 1340 for Kingdom of Poland and its vassals and 2.0M in the year 1370 for KoP + vassals + lands acquired by Casimir III the Great (Red Ruthenia, part of Volhynia and Podolia, and a small piece of land in the north-west).

For now I'll just paste some maps and tables below. Will turn it into a proper feedback, citing academic sources, once I'm back home and have access to books and maps.

Population density in 1340:

1717163378652.png


Population in European countries:

1717163906872.png


Population growth:

1717164023314.png


Population dynamics in the main three Polish provinces (Wielkopolska/Greater Poland, Malopolska/Lesser Poland, Mazowsze/Mazovia) in 1340 and 1580.
It says the population was split as follows:
Greater Poland 560K + Lesser Poland 440K + Mazovia 250K = 1.25M

1717164065209.png
 
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Several questions emerge looking at the border territory between Poland proper and the Silesian duchies.

Given the game's start being set in 1337 iirc, the Duchy of Siewierz (see map 1) ought not to be represented within the borders of the Kingdom - it wouldn't be until 1443 that the Duchy's been bought by the Bishops of Kraków, bringing it somewhat closer to the Crown; until then it remained a territory in possession of different Silesian dukes, and should be represented as such (especially given how you're alredy portraying Silesia's fragmentation in a rather detailed manner).

Also, seeing the borders of the locations of Będzin and Chrzanów, and how those of the former seem to partially allign with the Duchy's borders (see map 2), the actual "old" city of Będzin, as opposed to the modern city's administrative layout (see map 3) would find itself outside of the Będzin locality's borders, instead being in Chrzanów.

As such I'd suggest renaming the locality of Chrzanów to Będzin, dividing what's currently Będzin into two localities, and attaching Siewierz i.e. the western one to whichever Silesian Duchy it should be in union with at game start (either Bytom or Cieszyn, I believe).
this is what's being done instead of balkans lore
 
I think there should be some Germans in Slovakia as they had already arrived there during the "Ostsiedlung".
View attachment 1141200
Maybe they are there though and it just isn't shown. In that case I have to apologize.
There are; no worries.
 
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Would you reconsider changing Romuva name to Baltic Paganism?

As it was said in another thread, naming religion with name of modern, neopagan religion Romuva is equivalent of calling Islam “Mekka” or “Medina”. Romuva was important holy shrine for Prussian pagans (which by the way might not even exist), not the name of their faith. From records we know that they called it ancestral faith or faith of our fathers, but obviously we can’t have that be on the map. So why not just call it Baltic Paganism, similarly how there is for example Sami Shamanism? It would be a more proper, fitting and inclusive term than Romuva.
 
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Can we expect dynamic locations' names depending on current year or events? I know that it is historical to include Czersk as the location name, not Warsaw, but Warsaw rose to the role of Polish capital during the game's timeframe and it could be presented accordingly in the game.
 
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I think it might be wise to dive more deeply into Samogitian Presence in Lithuania Minor. According to Wikipedia it's a bit controversial and some theories postulate that Lithuanians only arrived in the area after 1466.
1000024011.png
 
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Where are the Yotvingians/Sudovians in the Suvalkija region? It was all Baltic in those times not Polish.
 

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I noticed that the border between Hungary and Poland matches the modern Slovak-Polish border exactly, which is inaccurate for this time period, as the modern border only came to be in 1920 with the treaty of Trianon. The land that's today called Northern Orava and Upper Spis were at the time part of Hungary, not Poland. Although I'm sure the border wasn't entirely static and it's hard to say where exactly it laid all the way back in 1337, I attached a map of Hungary in the 14th century for comparison, uses the 19th century pre-Trianon northern border, it's likely going to be closer to the true situation of the time than the current, modern day border shown on the Project Caesar map.

Another thing, I'd like to ask, how is the Spisz pledge, the situation where Poland (and later the PLC) held sovereignty over several rich mining towns in what is now eastern Slovakia going to be represented?

1717164264220.jpeg
 
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Hey Pavía sorry for posting this here, but I just recently found out about this project and I wanted to give some feedback in the iberian peninsula but I felt that since the post was already a bit old you guys might not read further comments at this point, I have posted it in the proper iberian discussion as well.
{
-The first proposal is, given the start date, shouldn't the county of Urgell start out as a vassal of Aragon rather than directly held by It?

-Second: I would propose replacing Santander with Santillana del Mar and renaming the region of Trasmiera to Santillana as it seems far more apropiarte given most of the region was known as Asturias de Santillana (Trasmiera was just a very small part).

-Third: Not sure where you got your data for mudéjar communities in Castille but Arévalo hosted the largest mudéjar community north of Guadarrama and it isn't currently marked, I would also add a very notable mudéjar population in Cuéllar. Notable mudéjar minorities should also be added to Ávila, Segovia, Almazán, Toro, Villalpando, Sahagún, Alba de Tormes, Béjar, Madrid, Alcalá de Henares, Illescas, Toledo, Galisteo, Plasencia, Trujillo, Medellín, Alcántara, Guadalupe, Zafra, Llerena, Monesterio, Jaén, Úbeda, Sanlúcar de Barrameda, Jerez de la frontera, Aracena, Teruel and Montalbán. By contrast the mudéjar populations should be reduced in Zamora, Medina de Rioseco, Coria and Valladolid (although if you add Tordesillas it should have a mudéjar minority as well).
}
I once again apologize for posting this here.
 
It's estimated to be 1.25M in the year 1340 for Kingdom of Poland and its vassals and 2.0M in the year 1370 for KoP + vassals + lands acquired by Casimir III the Great (Red Ruthenia, part of Volhynia and Podolia, and a small piece of land in the north-west).

For now I'll just paste some maps and tables below. Will turn it into a proper feedback, citing academic sources, once I'm back home and have access to books and maps.

Population density in 1340:

View attachment 1141192

Population in European countries:

View attachment 1141204

Population growth:

View attachment 1141205

Population dynamics in the main three Polish provinces (Wielkopolska/Greater Poland, Malopolska/Lesser Poland, Mazowsze/Mazovia) in 1340 and 1580.
It says the population was split as follows:
Greater Poland 560K + Lesser Poland 440K + Mazovia 250K = 1.25M

View attachment 1141206
Would you mind sharing from which sources these data come?
 
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I guess the island of Malta just south of Sicily will feature within the Italian Tinto Maps of next week ? :) , its small but its historical importance due to its strategic position was always huge.
 
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